SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The post about one time posters helped me get off the fence. I'm one who reads alot but doesn't post. I summoned the courage to do a detailed post last summer and got some really good and valuable "straight talk" from both WS's and BS's. Input from the BS side was actually the most valuable, so i always welcome that. Helps me to better understand what i have put my W through.

So, second post...really just here to say that nearly 2 years after Dday (and 6 months after my first post), things are no better and R is really, really hard. And i'm feeling like i'm losing hope. For my W, the anger, hurt and bitterness is still there every day. But on the plus side of the ledger, my W is still here. That alone is something to be grateful for.

We do talk about D. We have talked about moving out and separation. But we don't take that step. I want to keep working on things. She's undecided about our future. She has said many times she will never forgive me and she will never get over it. The fact that we remain together tells me there is some part of her that does want us to reconcile though. I know she does not want to live in this pain forever.

I really want to help her heal. I feel like i'm not doing as good a job of that as i could be or should be. Or so she tells me. I don't really know....am i doing the work? Am i not doing the work? Or doing some work but not enough of it?

In our situation, there was no trickle truth. All was put out in the open right away. I went full NC right away and that remains and shall remain. I have no interest or desire to engage with the former AP and no interest, desire or temptation to engage in any wayward activity whatsoever. I want to demonstrate to my W that I am a safe partner. While my W has just reason to doubt me and not trust me, I do know that on this i am safe and that i am acting with integrity.

Where the bigger issue lies is my ability (lack thereof) to be truly empathetic. My first post last August was about struggling to show empathy in the face of anger. I wish i could say things are different 6 months later. Through IC, i've done work to identify and openly acknowledge things about myself that in the past i would have dismissed or been defensive about. I look back on our marriage and see how my communication style was harmful to my W and was invalidating her feelings. I let my spin and view on things be what prevailed and it made her feel silenced and without a voice in the family. I didn't see it then and wasn't looking or listening close enough to see the signs and the negative impact it was having. I see now how my behaviors were a root cause in the deterioration of our marriage (note: that is no way an excuse for my having an A). But even with the acknowledgement of this, my sincere apology for it and my openness to address and work on my flaws (add selfishness, defensiveness and stubbornness to the list), my W still sees me as "that person" and that there has been no change at all. Thus, i am still not a safe partner.

Also in IC, did a good deal of work on empathy. For a while i feel i was doing good with identifying with her feelings and sitting in her pain. I think in recent weeks i've taken a step back on that. I've reverted to some defensiveness. We talk about the marriage daily. Not always about the A. That is a huge issue but isn't as center stage as it was earlier on. A very large part of our issue is her feeling disrespected by me and me not caring about her feelings. I know i've done many things to change and act and communicate in better and healthier ways. But i'm feeling like nothing i've done makes a difference. I'm constantly being told about things i'm not doing or that i haven't done well or should have done better and how those things are signs of emotional abuse. That's a super charged word and one i don't agree with. It makes me either shut down or be defensive. I feel like if i screw up on something, say the wrong thing, not demonstrate empathy in a situation, that's all bad and steps backward (as it should be). For anything i've done or been doing that demonstrates positive change, that counts for nothing. I don't want or need to be praised for being "less shitty". But i do get frustrated when told i haven't done anything to change and that i don't care about her feelings.

As i reflected on this last night, i realized that this dynamic is making me less receptive to my W's feedback. I'm taking it as criticism. And then i respond with defensiveness. I want to point out the 10 things that are better and that 1 thing that I didn't do well does not make me a narcissistic psychopath that doesn't take accountability and is incapable of change. I realize that i am not validating her feelings and thus not showing empathy for what she is going through. The fact that i'm feeling defeated is causing me to be defensive. And that of course is self defeating in and of itself.

I know 2yrs is still early in the recovery and reconciliation process. Seeing other people write about their journey to R and how that took multiple years does help. For much of the past 2yrs i felt we could get there. Times feel dark right now it is hard to see that happening. While i'm losing hope, i do remain committed to working on myself and to working on healing my wife and the marriage. I need to do better at being empathetic in the face of anger, because the anger is justified based on my past actions.

as proof that i'm not yet an experienced poster....how do i get rid of the Stop Sign?

i would welcome feedback from BS's as well as other Waywards.

i didn't mean to have a stop sign on this.

I've asked mods to remove stop sign. My understanding is you have the option to select no stop sign when you begin the post.

[This message edited by leafields at 4:17 AM, Sunday, May 14th]

Lonelypilgrim,

You are heard. I'm in a very similar place to you.

Empathy is something I am reading a lot about and discussion with IC. I don't know if there is a know scale to Empathy. Similar to the autistic spectrum or a grading system from 1 to 10 (10 being super empathetic). Right now I would barely put myself at a 4. I'm now seeing that my actions are causing upset and indeed why (in most cases) but I really struggle with then feeling the pain my BS is going through. I'm not sure why I can't do this, but feel that "it hurts" is not deep enough.

And I'm feeling like I'm losing hope. For my W, the anger, hurt and bitterness is still there every day. But on the plus side of the ledger, my W is still here. That alone is something to be grateful for.

Use this, use the fact the BS is still with you to fight off the negative self talk (NST). Please try, I know it's difficult, when the shame kicks in and the NST takes over. You feel low and that "it will be fairer is I just let BS go" I feel so sad at times. Every day I see her battling the demons I've forced upon her, On a good day, I can empathise with this and try to do the right things to help her. On a bad day, I blame her for intentionally catastrophising and seeing only the worst in every situation. Forgetting that the worst has happened and she is left dealing with my bullshit while I struggle dealing with myself.

I don't really know....am i doing the work? Am i not doing the work? Or doing some work but not enough of it?

There is an interesting thread on General that is discussing "the work" and how it is very much individual to the couple involved. The only way to know for certain is to speak with BS and understand what they need the work to be. I don't do this anywhere near enough as so often I've ailed because I'm not doing the right things at the right time. My wayward mind tries to justify this by saying "at least you're doing ABC" even if the requirement was XYZ

But i'm feeling like nothing i've done makes a difference. I'm constantly being told about things i'm not doing or that i haven't done well or should have done better and how those things are signs of emotional abuse.

This is something I needed a domestic abuse course to come to terms with. EVERYTHING I've done and continue to do is abusive behaviour. Abuse is not limited to physical or sexual abuse. Every time I have minimised or lied, every time I have got angry with BS, it is abuse. Anything that takes agency away from BS is me acting abusively. I'm trying to be better, but still act out more often that I care admit to myself (more wayward thinking). Emotional abuse has been extremely damaging to my BS, I urge you to read up on emotional abuse to see if there is something you can do differently to help your BS. Anything that you do, which is looks at your past and current behaviours will help make you the person you're striving to be. I'm not saying one way or another that your BS is right, I don't know enough. However I will say that whatever you BS is feeling is their reality and therefore is reality.

shut down or be defensive

Yes, that's me far too often

As i reflected on this last night, i realized that this dynamic is making me less receptive to my W's feedback. I'm taking it as criticism. And then i respond with defensiveness. I want to point out the 10 things that are better and that 1 thing that I didn't do well does not make me a narcissistic psychopath that doesn't take accountability and is incapable of change. I realize that i am not validating her feelings and thus not showing empathy for what she is going through. The fact that i'm feeling defeated is causing me to be defensive. And that of course is self defeating in and of itself.

Yes to all of this. I'm really struggling with getting out of this loop. Hopefully there will be a reply to help us.

While i'm losing hope, i do remain committed to working on myself and to working on healing my wife and the marriage. I need to do better at being empathetic in the face of anger, because the anger is justified based on my past actions.

Again, I can really relate to this. Anger for me was based on my lies. Firstly the lies I told, including the justifications and minimisations and then the anger based on continually being questioned and being on the receiving end of BS own anger and frustration. Hey, I even get pissy about my integrity being called into question!!! Figure that one out! A man who has had multiple affairs and then lied about them getting upset when BS doubts his integrity.

There is a long way to go on our journey, I'm glad the post about one time posters helped you come back and post. Please keep posting on here and we can share our sucesses and failures on here.

Stop sign (apparently) removed.
BH here.
Two years post disclosure date I was not happy, I confronted my WW often with questions that became interrogations. It must have been hell for her.Some of it I regret now.
What would have helped me then would have been for her to initiate the discussions about what she did, how she felt then, how she feels now, or even just to mention that today she had a memory from the affair triggered by x that made her feel y. For example, "today a song came on XM that I associate with the affair. During the affair, it made me feel good, connected. Today, it just reminded me what a ridiculous charade the whole thing was, and how badly I’ve hurt you. I’m sorry for what I did."
My WW has said from time to time, "when we are having a bad day, I don’t want to make it worse by doing that. When we are having a good day I don’t want to remind you what I did and ruin our day." My response has uniformly been, "there is never a day I don’t think about what you did. If we are having a bad day, that’s a great chance to make a connection with me this way. If we are having a good day, you have an even better chance to seize the opportunity and build a connection from a position of strength and security. When you never do it, I feel as if you are simply hoping I’ll get over it so we never have to discuss it again. That last option is the single best way to destroy the marriage we are trying to build now."

Stop sign (apparently) removed.

Confirming that the stop sign has been removed and that BS are now able to respond on this thread.

Yes - confirming that the stop sign is removed. I made an error including it my original post and subsequently asked that it be removed. The Administrator did so.

I most definitely welcome feedback from BS's.

But i'm feeling like nothing i've done makes a difference. I'm constantly being told about things i'm not doing or that i haven't done well or should have done better and how those things are signs of emotional abuse.

This resonated with me because it's something my WW as said to me several times. My only explanation to her is that it's harder for me to recognize when she does something that she should have been doing all along than it is for me to see the things that she's still failing at.

I don't know if this is common for BPs, or if it's simply me looking for the negatives (hyper vigilance). I know if I sit and reflect I can see some of the changes looking in retrospect, but I also know that many of the changes are internal changes to her thought process, and I don't know how I'm expected to see those if she doesn't communicate them to me.

Thank you all for the responses thus far.

Bulcy is spot on with the wayward thinking of doing ABC when the expectation is XYZ. My W and I have been at odds on that. I talk about the things i've done, as if that is what matters. Yes, it's a big part of it. But if she has additional needs, then i need to make sure i'm addressing that as well. I need to make sure i am open to that and truly listening, really hearing her on what she needs.

WiseOldFool and StolenPast - i'm sorry that you are here and that you've been betrayed by the likes of us. Thank you for your grace by offering up your input and experience.

I have really struggled to proactively initiate a conversation about the A. The reason is EXACTLY how you put it below. I don't want to make a bad day worse and i don't want to ruin a good day. And i can guarantee that my W feels the same as you do that by not doing it, it feels like I want it to just have it go away and that is not at all conducive to R.

To be totally honest...i'm afraid to do it. Afraid for what will follow. Afraid it will make things worse. And maybe it will before it gets better. But, yes, i need to try. Need to let her know how i felt then, how i feel now and be accountable for how out of touch i was during that time.

The last comment about the BS seeing the changes the WS is making....i find this challenging as well. I agree that it's hard for someone to see something that should have been there all along. And for the changes that the WS is making, if it is in one's thought process, how does the BS see that. The reason i find it challenging is if i talk about those changes, whether it be outward actions or internal thought processing, then i'm talking about myself and making it about me. Feels to my W like I'm patting myself on the back rather than focusing on her feelings. It's tied in to the other comment about doing ABC when she is needing XYZ.

Both of your comments give me great food for thought on the things i need to do in my journey to be being a safer partner and a better person.

My fWW sometimes used "nothing I ever do will be good enough" as an excuse not to try. I did my best to recognize her positive efforts and changes. You need to be patient for another three years, perhaps longer. 2-5 years to R and I think 2 is very fast.

Reread HTHYSHFYA. You as a rebuilder need to be patient.

Read "How Can I Forgive You" by Janice Spring. You wife could maybe use it too, but I don't know that you can suggest it to her.

In terms of communication skills "Seve Principles for Making Marriage Work" is great. May help with the criticism and defensiveness.

Just had the experience two days ago that my WW met my request with somewhat less defensiveness than she would have previously in life. It’s true that in the past she might have had a Category 4 shame shit storm and that contributed to all kinds of disfunction in our relationship, prevented communication and problem solving and intimacy. So yes, there is improvement, but in my current state it is like she’s switched from an assault rifle to a pistol, it still causes me to emotionally tank. And to add insult to injury she asks me to thank her for improving even as I’m on the slide back to square 1. In this horrible state I’m in, that she put me in, I need her to be selfless and A+, and she is nowhere close. If anything is going to cause me to throw in the towel, it will be this. I think it will take my brain over-riding my heart to give her the time to improve, but I’ve also got all these stories in my mind of false R and no real change. So I’m sitting in uncertainty and pain. One thing I’m sure of is I can’t thank her for it.

I'm constantly being told about things i'm not doing or that i haven't done well or should have done better and how those things are signs of emotional abuse. That's a super charged word and one i don't agree with.

I imagine this is really difficult, the word abuse is so very charged. In my experience, this is an area where the affair had the effect of reinterpreting my wife’s behavior patterns that I previously thought of as annoyances into abusive. I see them now as contributing to this disaster and their continued presence causes great pain and discomfort, it feels unsafe. Writing this, I’m sure I’m not saying anything you don’t know. Maybe can just help you have an extra boost of compassion for your wife today. I wish you well.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 1:52 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

My WW has said from time to time, "when we are having a bad day, I don’t want to make it worse by doing that. When we are having a good day I don’t want to remind you what I did and ruin our day." My response has uniformly been, "there is never a day I don’t think about what you did. If we are having a bad day, that’s a great chance to make a connection with me this way. If we are having a good day, you have an even better chance to seize the opportunity and build a connection from a position of strength and security. When you never do it, I feel as if you are simply hoping I’ll get over it so we never have to discuss it again. That last option is the single best way to destroy the marriage we are trying to build now."

I also want to say that I second, third and fourth this. Nothing to add, perfectly said.

Any and all defensiveness is damaging. It needs to be 100% gone.

It’s a simple math thing. Gone. Not less, not improved.

Gone.

Our stories are similar except for a few details. I had already gone NC with AP before DDay and had started IC a few months before that. AP outed me with an anonymous letter. Like you, I also confessed everything on DDay, including A's that my BW was not aware of.

I encourage you to keep doing the hard labor on yourself. Respect your W's thoughts and feelings and share yours honestly and openly. Don't tell her what you think she wants to hear, which is just wayward behavior (I say this as a former master conflict-avoider and people-pleaser myself).

My WW has said from time to time, "when we are having a bad day, I don’t want to make it worse by doing that. When we are having a good day I don’t want to remind you what I did and ruin our day." My response has uniformly been, "there is never a day I don’t think about what you did. If we are having a bad day, that’s a great chance to make a connection with me this way. If we are having a good day, you have an even better chance to seize the opportunity and build a connection from a position of strength and security. When you never do it, I feel as if you are simply hoping I’ll get over it so we never have to discuss it again. That last option is the single best way to destroy the marriage we are trying to build now."

Wiseoldfool said it best right there. I've already saved it to read over and over again.

I don't know if this will help with defensiveness, but maybe.

Some reframing might be in order. Every question, every tear, every reach out is an opportunity for the wayward. Here is your chance to help, soothe, comfort and repair. Every single time. Instead of viewing it as an attack or interrogation, maybe it will help to see it as a bid for connection. The connection happens when the wayward responds with the support and love the betrayed needs.

We talk a lot about a betrayed's pain. Rightly so. It's epic. But what doesn't get mentioned too much is the EXTREME vulnerability a betrayed feels. Not just that a wayward will cheat or lie, but that they are not who we thought they were at all.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to go to the person who hurt you and cry in front of them? To admit that a song or certain make of car or a certain smell triggers us? We feel like fools. We feel weak and pathetic. Bringing those feelings to the source of our pain feels like standing naked in line at the grocery store. It's terrifying, embarrassing and disorienting. This is hardly the stance of a warrior on the attack. (not that we don't attack too sometimes but that's a different topic)

So, I don't know if this helps but if a wayward can see those vulnerable moments as a chance to comfort and protect their spouse, maybe it changes the interaction. S/he is naked in line at the store. Offer your coat. Pay for the groceries. Get him or her some place safe.

So, I don't know if this helps but if a wayward can see those vulnerable moments as a chance to comfort and protect their spouse, maybe it changes the interaction. S/he is naked in line at the store. Offer your coat. Pay for the groceries. Get him or her some place safe.

I love this place, it helps me understand myself. This is awesome.

BS here. One that suffered through a LTA, subsequent DDays as they went underground (false R) and then discovered LTAP had been cyberstalking through fake profiles trying to duplicate our lives which resulted in a Cease & Desist. It's been a roller coaster from HELL.

And...WH and I are doing well. But it took a LONG time. And lots of IC. For both of us.

I read through your post twice. And one thing sticks out at me like a neon sign.

And then i respond with defensiveness.

Please LP...please stop doing this. Your defensiveness is causing you and your BS to be stuck in a loop. As someone who's WH was defensive also, it hindered our healing and honestly caused me to seriously question our marriage. And myself. If I had to be truly honest, it was then I really focused on my own healing as opposed to focusing on reconciliation. I decided to work on my self. Our marriage would come along or not. But R or D I needed to be back to the BASGU (bad ass sparkly goddess unicorn) that was (and is again) me.

I also decided that when WH got in defensive mode, it just wasn't worth my effort and energy. I'd walk away. Leave him with his own selfish ways and delusions and excuses and...well...it exhausting just typing that. But I wouldn't play. I just wouldn't play that game. I wouldn't say anything. I'd even keep a neutral facial expression (that was a tough one). Not worth it.

So my advice to you as a BS of a LTA that's been through hell and back, is to stop. Just stop with the defensiveness. That feeling you get when you start feeling the old excuses come - lean into it. That's where you need to go to figure this shit out. That is where you start to own yourself and your actions.

Your defensiveness only makes you sound like a toddler caught with your hand in the cookie jar or a teenager that got caught sneaking in after curfew. And it is causing you, your WS and your marriage more harm than good.

Here's another reframe for you. You stabbed her full of holes, she's bleeding out all over the floor and when she's screaming in pain, crying from fear and devastated shocked that it was you that did this to her, imagine all the while you just telling her "it's not my fauuuuullllllttttt". That's what your defensiveness is doing to her.

That's where you need a mental STOP sign [IC can help you with this]. Because she's right. As long as you go straight to self defensive mode, you are not a safe partner.

I'm getting more out of all this feedback than i do in IC. Hearing from all of you is raw and real. Some of you are me. Some of you are my W. I see aspects of each of us in the various comments. And it is incredibly helpful.

I'm glad i posted (and see why i should do more of it) because it has helped me get my head back where it needs to be. Yes, i've made progress on myself over the past 2 years. But it's not a straight line and it's not a journey that has an end. I see how i slowly reverted to some old behaviors. It's born out of frustration, but i also need to demonstrate patience. Her pain isn't going away just bc i am thinking differently now and (often but not always) behaving better. Patience and understanding are components of empathy. Work where i really need to keep at it.

All of this has really helped me renew my focus on self improvement. Helped me take a fresh and honest look at myself and how i've been over the past month or two. I can definitely be doing better.

InkHulk said in his reply, "maybe just have an extra boost of compassion for your wife today". So simple yet so powerful. That actually moved me. And it made me want to go out of my way to make sure i do that, not just today but everyday.

So this morning, out of the blue, i went into the bedroom as my W was getting up, relaxing with her coffee...i walked up, held her hand, looked her in the eye and said "i love you very much and i am so sorry for betraying you". Risky move to start our day off by raising the A and disturbing her most precious moment of the day (coffee time!). She looked at me with surprise, almost a curiosity. Like "why is he doing this". Well, after 2 years, had i done things like that more often she wouldn't be surprised. This didn't spur any kind of big discussion, but it was a moment of connection and i think it felt good for the both of us.

That was a pretty awesome move this morning LP. Keep it up.

I will.

But i have to tell you all how down i feel at this very moment.

Downstairs just now she said to me how this morning was fake and she didn't believe a word i said.

She's been watching the Murdaugh trial and that is all about his life of lies and destruction of families. She draws parallels to my past lying. Says she can't believe what i say and this morning didn't believe me. I'm just all lies.

Saying what i said came from the heart and was me showing emotion (something i'm not good at). I know that to be true with every fiber of my being.

So her quizzical look this morning was actually a heavy dose of doubt. Not at all the moment of connection i thought it was.