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As my WW and I have been trying for R, she has been in IC for 6mos or so, and aside from being told that her IC said I was being verbally abusive during dday3, not a single detail of what they are working on/through has been shared with me or during sessions with the "Affair Recovery" MC that we are seeing.

This is nagging at me as being a problem, but I really want a sanity check before I bring this up between us or in the MC session.

Am I wrong for thinking that at least the high level story of what is happening there should be shared?

I don't think it's necessary for a WS to share details about their therapy in order to be able to verbalize to their BS what's on their mind after infidelity. If they're not able to share their 'whys' and what has changed, what proof do you have that anything has changed at all? Talking is healing. If she's not talking to you, how can your relationship heal?

I believe your wife should be an open book. She had how many affairs?

You deserve to know what's going on, I'd bring it up in MC. Transparency is a must IMO. No more secrets.

I'm a little confused by your timeline. DDay #2 was back in August, right? And DDay #3 happened pretty recently given your last post. If you've had 2 DDays since starting R and possibly one while she was in therapy, is this working out for you?

You do have the right to request some general information about what is happening in her IC but it shouldn't be necessary. If she's using that time to really dig into all those DDays and OM, you should see a shift in her responses to you. She should be sharing her realizations about herself as they come. What is she saying about her cheating? How is she responding to your pain? And how is it different than before? I'm suspecting you want to know because you're not seeing much change.

What about IC for you? How is your self focus and healing going?

In my view, you are not entitled to everything that goes on in IC however if your wife is invested in R, I would probably expect her to at least share little realizations or breakthroughs she is making in IC from time to time.

I don’t know your dynamic though. Are you providing her a safe place for open discussion (however slow the pace) or are you impatient, demanding, and dismissive when she does share? I don’t ask this in an accusatory manner, I just know firsthand how impatient I was at the perceived lack of progress my husband seemed to be making in IC- often focusing on things that hardly felt related. What is her reaction when you inquire?

WH and I both do IC on Tuesdays. Usually on Tuesday nights after we put the kids to bed, we have a check in about how our appointments went. Sometimes it's really vague/brief like "Oh it was a tough appointment, but I felt hopeful after" and other times it prompts hours long conversations.

When my WS was in IC I was DYING to know what they were talking about in there. Especially, when she reported to me that her IC recommend she set a deadline for me to get over the affair and not mention it again just 8-months after D-day.

I finally concluded that I don’t care WTF they talk about. If my WW wants to allow her IC to fast track her to divorce, then let’s go. If my WW really, REALLY wanted to reconcile, then she would call her IC out if she was getting misdirected. If she was truly remorseful she would recognize, and more importantly, FEEL-with empathy, that the advice to deadline me is not going to be realistic. If she had done her due diligence mandatory reading and research, she would know that deadlining is not conventional wisdom.

If your WS is going to lie, exaggerate, misrepresent or misdirect her IC, then you have little to work with.

Hmm..so you were verbally abusive on DDAY THREE..has your wife,or her IC acknowledged that infidelity is a form of extreme abuse?

She's a serial cheater, who is blaming you for not being nice to her on a THIRD dday.

I don't think it sounds as if she's working on herself in IC,if she feels that way.

Not all marriages can..or should be..saved.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:35 PM, Monday, February 20th]

Initially, my W told me everything. That got tedious pretty quickly. We then went to highlights. then to nothing. What counted most to me was my W's behavior and that was good from d-day on. Also, her IC was our MC, and the C was authorized to bring up in MC anything W said in an IC session.

What's really important is that no one lies in IC. A joint session might be useful, especially to get on the same page with things like 'verbally abusive on d-day 3'. I'd expect a good IC to confront a WS's complaint of verbal abuse on d-day 3 .... OK, ideally you would simply have shouted, 'I'm furious that this has come up again! When the will you come clean and do the work you need to do?!?!' But I wonder why the IC didn't say something about yelling instead of simply throwing your WS out with only the clothes on her back.

In any case, a joint session is an opportunity to find out what your W said about her A and multiple d-days and what the C said in response. We all filter what we hear, and your W might have filtered the wrong stuff out and jumped to the wrong conclusions. Cs can easily get misquoted.

I don't think it's necessary for a WS to share details about their therapy in order to be able to verbalize to their BS what's on their mind after infidelity. If they're not able to share their 'whys' and what has changed, what proof do you have that anything has changed at all? Talking is healing. If she's not talking to you, how can your relationship heal?

To be clear, I don't think she should "have" to disclose everything, or even a majority of, what is discussed in IC for her. But aside from a brief mention about "having a session" a couple weeks ago, I haven't heard anything beyond the "he's being abusive and we need to talk about you being on your own" right after her initial session right after the DDay in 8/22.

I believe your wife should be an open book. She had how many affairs?

You deserve to know what's going on, I'd bring it up in MC. Transparency is a must IMO. No more secrets.

This is my plan. We have had a 2 week break from MC due to C's schedule, but are back this week. I intend to bring it up and see how it plays out.

I'm a little confused by your timeline. DDay #2 was back in August, right? And DDay #3 happened pretty recently given your last post. If you've had 2 DDays since starting R and possibly one while she was in therapy, is this working out for you?

I know my post history would show a pretty disjointed timeline, and I apologize for that.

DDay 1: Feb 21 - 9mo PA with 3+mo (likely more) EA lead in
DDay 2: Oct 21 - Vague allusion to EA in the past(hadn't really considered it DDay 2 for a while, but it was)
DDay 3: Aug 22 - Truth comes out about EA 10yrs ago and 2 online EA but highly visual/sexual

Tons of TT/minimization/etc from DDay 1 to the day after DDay3.

You do have the right to request some general information about what is happening in her IC but it shouldn't be necessary. If she's using that time to really dig into all those DDays and OM, you should see a shift in her responses to you. She should be sharing her realizations about herself as they come. What is she saying about her cheating? How is she responding to your pain? And how is it different than before? I'm suspecting you want to know because you're not seeing much change.

She has changed her tune from the "unmet needs" narrative originally to being willing to admit it was her choice, and her choice alone. She apologizes for my pain and asks what she can do.

In reality, aside from her calling me to tell me where she is/going/etc, a return of physical intimacy, and some small changes in her choosing to spend time at home (not necessarily with me), no, there doesn't feel like a ton of changes. Partly this is due to how things went after DDay1 and 2, where she did NOT quit her job (where AP worked in the same building), continued to be cordial, even reaching out to AP. She also never quit her additional hobby/job. So now that she is working again (different job), has the second hobby/job 2 nights a week, and goes out with a group of friends 1x night a week, it really doesn't feel that much different than during her PA.

Her "best friend" who I know, have met many times, and we have even traded jokes via text, knew about the PA and said nothing to me, is still in her life.

What about IC for you? How is your self focus and healing going?

I am not in IC, and have not been yet. I don't ever really self focus, so that's not really a priority for me. I have buried myself into a new job for 14 months of the 2 years since DDay1, and that has helped. Healing? I don't know. Honestly, I think I am doing okay. The single biggest issue for me right now is all the mistakes I made, and how she treated me with TT, continued contact, minimizing/lying, etc...

I don’t know your dynamic though. Are you providing her a safe place for open discussion (however slow the pace) or are you impatient, demanding, and dismissive when she does share? I don’t ask this in an accusatory manner, I just know firsthand how impatient I was at the perceived lack of progress my husband seemed to be making in IC- often focusing on things that hardly felt related. What is her reaction when you inquire?

Even if it was asked in an accusatory tone, I asked for feedback, so you're all good!

I do get easily annoyed when anyone says/asks the same thing more than about 2x in the same conversation, which she does alot (even on non-A related conversations) so I am sure that I have gotten annoyed with her during A-related discussions. However, that being said, We have had deep/hard conversations about her repeated A's, and in those she has never brought up her IC or the work that is being done.

To be honest, I don't inquire. There have been a couple things that I have let run their course in these last 2 years, effectively giving her "enough rope to hang herself".

When my WS was in IC I was DYING to know what they were talking about in there. Especially, when she reported to me that her IC recommend she set a deadline for me to get over the affair and not mention it again just 8-months after D-day.

Unfortunately, I know a little more today than I did yesterday about her IC sessions, because I looked at her phone (she gave me the code, added my fingerprint, and told me I could at any time) and I looked at the chat thread of her IC (online/Phone IC). In there her C responded with comments "He's been doing this, and will continue until he really understands how HE is holding the two of you back" in response to her expressing hurt and frustration and accusing me of "That victim mentality is definitely keeping us from growing" since she feels like if she says she is hurting I will just point at the 4x A's and say she has no right to bring up her pain.

This was all centric to the fact that I did nothing to acknowledge V-day for her, despite knowing from the outset of us being together that I don't celebrate that holiday, never have, and she made a big deal of surprising her AP with lingerie/etc for the V-Day 2 weeks before DDay1.

I also struggle with the terminology her C uses in chats (I have pictures of them now) "Hi Girl...", "You are STRONG, girl"...

Another good one is "if he really wanted to heal you relationship... HE WOULD TRY HARDER"...

(all direct quotes)

So yeah, now I really don't appreciate her "efforts" in IC, that she isn't sharing...

I appreciate all the responses that make it clear that if she is truly trying to make the relationship better, she would be sharing at least some of the "results" and how the apply/affect our M.

Hmm..so you were verbally abusive on DDAY THREE..has your wife,or her IC acknowledged that infidelity is a form of extreme abuse?

She's a serial cheater, who is blaming you for not being nice to her on a THIRD dday.

I don't think it sounds as if she's working on herself in IC,if she feels that way.

Not all marriages can..or should be..saved.

She definitely made a big deal of sharing that her C labeled me abusive and wanted to talk to her about her being on her own if I was going to behave that way (calling her 2 inappropriate names after being told she hadn't had 1 affair, but had actually had 4 over the course of a decade).

When I pointed out that her C had created a written record of labeling me abusive, and that could have serious affects on my life, career, etc, she quickly tried to backpedal to "its not an official record" and "I said I don't want to end the M" type responses... Good grief, I still get angry just remembering all of that and typing it out...

Something I have worked on with the MC, in an individual session, is why I am struggling so hard to let go of the M and my WW. He has a few theories, but the one that really resonates and he is the one that put it this way, is that she was the first girl for me in every way, and that I am struggling so hard because she was so important to me. Now if only she had that same attachment.

Honestly, being right at 2 years, I am really starting to lean towards that this can't be saved, but I have been trying to not make a "rash" decision when everything I read says that it's 2-5 years before the BS can really process/heal/move on.

What's really important is that no one lies in IC. A joint session might be useful, especially to get on the same page with things like 'verbally abusive on d-day 3'. I'd expect a good IC to confront a WS's complaint of verbal abuse on d-day 3 .... OK, ideally you would simply have shouted, 'I'm furious that this has come up again! When the will you come clean and do the work you need to do?!?!' But I wonder why the IC didn't say something about yelling instead of simply throwing your WS out with only the clothes on her back.

In any case, a joint session is an opportunity to find out what your W said about her A and multiple d-days and what the C said in response. We all filter what we hear, and your W might have filtered the wrong stuff out and jumped to the wrong conclusions. Cs can easily get misquoted.

WW didn't label me abusive, that I know of. It was the C. As you say that could be misquoted or flat out lie/embellish.

There has never been a suggestion of a joint session with her IC. I haven't asked/suggested, but I think I might now. I expect it to be shot down, especially in light of the text chats that I have now seen between C and WW, but we'll see.

In the end, the fact that her PA-AP turned out to be a real POS that devolved into stalking her, mailing letters to me, mailing letters to my family, and this all resulted in my assisting her in getting a Restraining Order against him, I believe has tainted how she sees stuff with a victim attitude, and the text chats with her IC only confirm that.

I didn't throw her out on DDay1, because I was in shock and already heavily started into the Pick Me Dance, and didn't want her to run to him.

Sorry for the long responses. I sincerely appreciate each and everyone of you responding and asking questions and offering your view point.

her C responded with comments "He's been doing this, and will continue until he really understands how HE is holding the two of you back" in response to her expressing hurt and frustration and accusing me of "That victim mentality is definitely keeping us from growing"

I also struggle with the terminology her C uses in chats (I have pictures of them now) "Hi Girl...", "You are STRONG, girl"...

Another good one is "if he really wanted to heal you relationship... HE WOULD TRY HARDER"...

This is bad. “The victim mentality.”

So, you’re holding R back?

This doesn’t bode well. And you’re probably paying for these sessions.

We do a good job around here of helping BSs critique their MCs, but rarely the WS’s IC, because very little information comes out of those sessions. We all just assume-hope it’s therapeutic, competent, follows standard practice and "trust" the industry. We see many quack MCs reported here and frequently call them out. WS’s ICs on the other hand, there’s very little-if any, Betrayed Spouse oversight or quality control on that aspect of the counseling. I believe It’s really up to a remorseful WS to manage their therapy in a productive direction, towards R or D. If they don’t have the self awareness, the requisite empathy, and the desire to save their BS and the marriage then their therapy is going to go sideways anyway. The WS is just farming for confirmation bias.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 4:31 AM, Tuesday, February 21st]

She definitely made a big deal of sharing that her C labeled me abusive and wanted to talk to her about her being on her own if I was going to behave that way...

Sounds like your WW and mine shared the same IC. Mrs. Cap was told the exact same thing by her IC (who directed her to a book called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage and told her how she needed to prepare herself to separate totally from me and the family...we have 6 kids...to escape my "toxic" behaviors).

She would go on to accuse me of being abusive into two separate MCs. One (who was quite young and fresh out of her degree program) took Mrs. Cap's side and agreed that I was being abusive the night she broke NC (about 3 days post-Dday v1.0) and I yelled at her that she was lying to me and was a 100% hypocrite. Yeah, I was loud and used colorful language for the first time ever in our relationship...over 22 years of marriage...3 days after discovering her A...20 minutes after seeing a text she sent that said "Heartsick. Miss you." to the AP.

But I was the "abuser"...

When the MC agreed that I was being "abusive", I stopped going to that MC. In my line of work, an accusation of abuse (not a conviction, just an accusation) could permanently cost me my licenses. And counselors are part of the "mandatory reporter" group. I told her (Mrs. Cap) that if she wanted to continue with that narrative, she could say goodbye to me doing anything I've done professionally the entirety of our marriage and I would get to go bag groceries rather than make the income we needed. She stopped with that story for a while, but...

She agaun tried that same narrative with another IC about 3 years later. That counselor suggested she go to a "group" session for abuse survivors. She attended a few times (but was afraid to tell me that she was even seeing the counselor or going to group sessions). I eventually found out when we were in MC again (this time with a seasoned MC who had dealt with NUMEROUS relationships where an A happened).

The new MC asked her why she was seeing the IC and why she was going to group sessions. When Mrs. Cap told her that it was because I was abusing (present tense) her, the MC asked how & when. Mrs. Cap proceeded to tell the story of me yelling at her from about 4 years prior.

MC asked for a current example (we had been going to MC for 6 months at that time, MC had a pretty good understanding of me and our relationship) and Mrs. Cap couldn't point to anything other than when I was angry, I'd get quiet.

MC said "so, if he yells...which he hasn't done in years...he's abusive. And if he's quiet...he's abusive. Do you see that you've put him in a no-win situation? Your story is about you being a victim. Was his yelling "abusive"? Maybe. But there's a difference between "abusive behavior" and actually abusing you. What you did was 100% wrong. You had an A. You covered it up. You lied about it repeatedly. Then you reached out to the AP. How would you expect someone to react to that situation?"

Mrs. Cap didn't have an answer. The MC pointing out that she was trying to make herself the victim when she was the one doing the abusing literally stopped her in her tracks. When she could no longer control the narrative, when a counselor wasn't allowing her to push a BS version of what went on, she did a 180° turn and ACTUALLY started to actively take responsibility for her actions (her A) and her inaction (her lack of effort in R).

I've been there. It sucks. You know the truth. She knows the truth. But only one of you is willing to ACCEPT the truth.

Choose your road and walk it with perseverance, but know that you have the right to change your mind at any time.

Well, in most situations, a joint session can be helpful, but based on your report, I doubt you'll get anything positive out of a session with this IC, unless your W has entirely lied about herself.

More important, IMO, healing from being betrayed requires a lot of focusing on yourself. You need to figure out what you want. If you want R, you need to figure out your requirements for R, because R is a process of building a new M, not one of stifling oneself.

You did not contribute to your W's A. If you were a lousy H, it was up to her to negotiate better behavior or leave. She chose to conduct an A instead. That's a major failure on her part. Her A is about her, not about you.

You've made some mistakes in responding to your W's A. We all do - we just aren't taught how to recover from being betrayed. Luckily, we can all change our behavior. You've apparently stopped your pick-me dance. That's great.

What things in your life do you want to change? What are the next changes you are willing to make?

I was definitely verbally abusive and toxic after multiple D-Days. I honestly think it comes with the territory and not all marriages can be saved. I think my responses were due to continued disrespect, lying, gaslighting, DARVO a slew of other things that never changed after initial D-Day. My XWS was just not cut out for R and by my 3rd, 4th, 5th D-Day I wasn't cut out for it either and I ended the M.

I don't know about you, but it looks like your WWs IC is not a friend of the M....

Would a change of IC be beneficial?

It looks like the IC wants to perpetuate a victim mentality in your WW, and is not focusing on building empathy for the betrayed. From what you have posted on the chats, it hints at militant feminism.

Don't get me wrong, feminism is a good thing in my mind, but with most things, when the ideology swings away from a thoughtful middle ground, it can morph into a dangerous thing. At the extremes, it starts polarizing people, which in turn aggravates things by discouraging thoughtful conversations/negotiations/debates as both sides will not allow any other ideology that is not theirs.

This is bad. "The victim mentality."

So, you’re holding R back?

This doesn’t bode well. And you’re probably paying for these sessions.

As I read the, admittedly limited, chat material, yes. The C is saying that I am holding R back.

In effect, yes, I am paying as my WW wouldn't be able to afford IC without my income.

I've been there. It sucks. You know the truth. She knows the truth. But only one of you is willing to ACCEPT the truth.

Choose your road and walk it with perseverance, but know that you have the right to change your mind at any time.

There are times where I wonder if I should have progressed further in the ~2 years, but then I think back to the fact that I have only known the (current) truth for 6 months.

Without more knowledge of the sessions, I am left to assume that the IC is, at best, ambivalent to the M, but more likely antagonistic.

Well, in most situations, a joint session can be helpful, but based on your report, I doubt you'll get anything positive out of a session with this IC, unless your W has entirely lied about herself.

At this point, I have no interest in a joint session with this IC. Both my personal and professional life/interests can be negatively affected by accusations of abuse, so I have no intention of giving this C any more insight to me.

When I, in a round about way, brought up some of her IC work by asking for her "why's" she launched off into a list of things that seem like they are working more on normal life things than the reason for the A. She touched on a few things of "because I believed the lie that I deserved something I wasn't getting" and "my dad died when I was young so I was seeking the approval of other men". While these may be part of the issue, I pointed out that it does nothing to answer how she was willing to blatantly break marriage vows. She just referred back to the lie comment, which pissed me off so the conversation stopped at that point.

I intend to bring all of this up, with detail, with our MC (level headed guy) during our next session. I expect a lot of anger and deflection when I bring up specific quotes, but she gave me permission to dig. So, we'll see...

I think my responses were due to continued disrespect, lying, gaslighting, DARVO a slew of other things that never changed after initial D-Day.

I continue to balk at the description of being abusive in that I used a couple of accurate descriptions in a time of extreme emotion and hurt. I am probably wrong, but I also believe that today's society throws accusations of abuse, trauma, etc around far to easily and frequently.

In the end though, I am the same as you. My responses were driven by the fact that I had bent over backwards to fix her EXTENSIVE list of "unmet needs", witnessed/comforted her as she mourned the loss of her AP/A, supported/guided/financed her restraining order against AP, provided a relatively expensive anniversary trip ~8 months after Dday1, and on and on and on, only to find out that I had been missing 75+% of the "truth". I was livid...

I don't know about you, but it looks like your WWs IC is not a friend of the M....

Would a change of IC be beneficial?

It looks like the IC wants to perpetuate a victim mentality in your WW, and is not focusing on building empathy for the betrayed. From what you have posted on the chats, it hints at militant feminism.

No, I don't believe for a second that this C is a friend of the M. As I said before, he is at best ambivalent, but I believe he is likely antagonistic.

I suspect a request/demand of change in IC from me would be poorly received. I think bringing up the details that I know with the MC will be a pretty telling litmus test on a number of things. We shall see.

Not sure on the militant feminism, but I wouldn't be too surprised. As for empathy, my WW has made a huge deal out of how empathetic she is, and that my lack of empathy was one of the "problems" in the list of unmet needs from before DDay1. When I asked where her empathy was during the A's, she basically said she had none for me because "she was getting what she needed elsewhere".

There have been a couple times where conversations have felt to have the "hurry up and get over this" undertones, and now I see that explicitly stated in her chats with her IC, and it just leaves me to assume that that is the underlying mentality she is now operating on. She has expressed frustration in MC that she "has to wait for him to "get out of the pit" and there isn't anything that I can do". Before the knowledge of the IC chats, I took this as she wants to progress, but is waiting for me to heal, but now with the new info, it feels very much like she's frustrated that I haven't gotten over her cheating (off/on) on me for 10+ yrs of our 17yr marriage. This combined with the damage caused by her "lets fix the marriage, here's all the stuff you have been doing wrong for the entire marriage" "discussion" just hours before her AP forced her hand into telling me about the PA, doesn't leave me in a very good headspace to move forward with R.

As the title says... It just never ends.

More important, IMO, healing from being betrayed requires a lot of focusing on yourself. You need to figure out what you want. If you want R, you need to figure out your requirements for R, because R is a process of building a new M, not one of stifling oneself.

You did not contribute to your W's A. If you were a lousy H, it was up to her to negotiate better behavior or leave. She chose to conduct an A instead. That's a major failure on her part. Her A is about her, not about you.

You've made some mistakes in responding to your W's A. We all do - we just aren't taught how to recover from being betrayed. Luckily, we can all change our behavior. You've apparently stopped your pick-me dance. That's great.

What things in your life do you want to change? What are the next changes you are willing to make?

My life would be a lot simpler if I knew what I wanted... This is true in many things...

Thank you for writing out the statements about her affair and my lack of contribution to it. That helps, especially today with finding the 18mo old message detailing out the stuff she and her AP discussed about my shortcomings and failures.

Things to change in my life are pretty limited, honestly. I want to, and have, gotten back on the bandwagon of getting in shape and losing the weight. However, this comes with a double edged blade, as my weight was one of her list of things that made her unhappy in the marriage. This was no small thing, and she weaponized it about 4 months before DDay1, which leaves me with a strong desire to NOT get in shape, since I don't want to give her what she wants. My own desire to not be as heavy is winning out right now, so progress is being made.

Past that, I want to figure out what path is "the right one" concerning R/D, make that decision, and move on with my life. IF only it were that simple.

T/j There are several of you here who appear to be dealing with Covert narcissism. These people do not yell, do nothing outrageous, yet ALWAYS have attention. Ask yourselves if you are the trouble, but if you know you aren’t, then you need to stop looking at the cheating. Look instead if you entire relationship to see if every interaction has your ws getting all the attention. There are books that address this. It seems to be a newish diagnosis. Covert n is just as destructive as overt. It is not as much in your face but it plays havoc with your reality, and it is not fixable.
Think about this….someone has lied and cheated yet you don’t get to stay hurt and angry. Your ws might be so good at cv that the c is played just as you have been.

Downtrodden,

Part of my objection to IC before MC is that the IC has incentive not to fix the marriage in order to keep getting paid, or keep it in limbo for the same reason.

The other objection I have to IC is that the therapist becomes like the OM or OW someone who has a secret relationship with your WW which you are excluded from. And when you are paying it's like your WW using your credit card to take OM out to dinner.

What is the personal life of the therapist divorced, separated, single, man hater or enemy of marriage etc?

I don't know if there are online ratings for this therapist but the kind of people who give high marks and low marks to the IC might tell your something about the results of the ICs methods.