SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Downtrodden, I am sorry, but this is just no way for a man to be.

If you get into shape for your WW, there would be a million other things about you she would find to complain about. Hell one of them may even be that now 'you are spending too much time at the gym'!

Your WW is still extremely wayward. And by this path you are both on, she is going to CONTINUE to be wayward with you bound to it. The Pick-Me Dance does not work. You can't reason with your WW and her crazy either. The more you try to reason with her, the more you are the the heavy holding her back. Her choice of IC is a huge example of how wayward your wife really is and how little she is trying. Instead of picking someone as an IC who will hold her accountable and help set her on the road to becoming a safe partner, she picked a IC who is helping her feel better about herself by justifying her awful choices. At your expense! There's no concern for *you* there, Bub!

We talk about how MC is a bad idea early on because it presupposes that it was you or the marriage that is as fault for her cheating, but a bad IC is that much worse. (Key word here is 'bad', a good IC who will put your WW's feet to the fire is a Godsend.) At least with a MC you can see what nonsense is being peddled and try to intercept it, shop for a better MC etc.

The only solution out of infidelity is for you to recognize your own agency. You can D your shrew of a wife, get in shape--for YOUR sake, because it really helps with testosterone and everything else, and you can meet a better woman. Even if D really scares you....I imagine that if you got a lawyer and went over your options and told your WW that she can keep her lousy counselor and friends but you are out because you expect better, she probably would try much much harder to save your marriage.

Read the threads on the Wayward forum. It is generally the men who took a harder line towards D, are the ones who inspired their WW to change for the better and do everything they can to help their husbands heal and repair the marriage.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:59 PM, Wednesday, February 22nd]

ChamomileTea:

I don't think it's necessary for a WS to share details about their therapy in order to be able to verbalize to their BS what's on their mind after infidelity. If they're not able to share their 'whys' and what has changed, what proof do you have that anything has changed at all? Talking is healing. If she's not talking to you, how can your relationship heal?

I am positive that you are trying to help, but this is just an atrocious take. It is clear that the OP's WW has picked a really bad IC who wants to blame the OP for WW's affairs. (key word being "picked") You seem to be expecting the OP to listen to WW, after 3 DDays and she is still blaming OP for her affairs--which makes it clear that *nothing* changed for the better. That is just unbelievable to me!

Anyways OP, the men who have far more success "getting out of infidelity" are NOT the ones holding extra therapy sessions for their WW, they are instead the men who prioritize their self-respect. This includes showing that they will not put up with their WW's crazy, and includes filing for D. These men tend to heal faster, and in many cases the WW comes around after all and works a lot harder at R.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:54 PM, Wednesday, February 22nd]

You can D your shrew of a wife, get in shape--for YOUR sake

Honestly this is the route I would take. It sounds like your WS is emboldened by her IC making her feel better about herself while pointing out that you cannot get over it. Infidelity is traumatizing and it takes YEARS to get over it especially when you are around the perpetrator (WS). The real victim in this is the BS and infidelity is abuse and you now have to deal with trauma from that abuse.

I suggest reading the book Cheating in a Nutshell it is not R friendly by the way but neither is infidelity and I'm not a big advocate for R unless the WS is doing backflips for the M.

Before the knowledge of the IC chats, I took this as she wants to progress, but is waiting for me to heal, but now with the new info, it feels very much like she's frustrated that I haven't gotten over her cheating (off/on) on me for 10+ yrs of our 17yr marriage.

I kind of understand how your WW is thinking, but does not mean I agree with it at all. Your WW has yet to understand the devastation she has wreaked, and is still in her entitled wayward thinking. You OWE it to her to heal faster. This really does not bode well for your M.

If a WS were remorseful, the thinking would be 'how can I support my BS thought all this that I caused?'

This combined with the damage caused by her "lets fix the marriage, here's all the stuff you have been doing wrong for the entire marriage" "discussion" just hours before her AP forced her hand into telling me about the PA, doesn't leave me in a very good headspace to move forward with R.

Firstly, why are you even considering R at this point? She has degraded you, has no respect for you. Does not have any empathy for you. She is blameshifting and DARVO-ing the heck out of you.

Until her mindset changes, she is not safe for you.

You seem to be expecting the OP to listen to WW, after 3 DDays and she is still blaming OP for her affairs--which makes it clear that *nothing* changed for the better. That is just unbelievable to me!

Where did you get that? Did you actually read what was written? It's not necessary for the OP to have some kind of transcript of his WW's therapy session. She should ALREADY be talking to him. He should ALREADY know what she's thinking.
What he does with that information is entirely up to him, but in order for R to be successful, the WS needs to be an open book. That means talking.

ChamomileTea: I reread your post again and it does look like I jumped the gun. I do apologize.

My confusion was this: OP's WW was *already* saying *more than enough* about her counseling sessions. She *already* said that her IC called OP an abuser. That is plenty of information right there. At the very least WW is sticking with a very bad IC, and it is more likely that OP's WW is also actively feeding the IC a bad narrative--enabled by IC that is.

Agreed.. there are some crappy therapists out there. Ultimately though, the OP's wife isn't operating under the delusion that she's a turnip or something. She may be selfish and without empathy, but she's an adult and SHE is ultimately the one responsible for making progress in IC if she wants to save her marriage. Certainly, if the OP were to complain that he doesn't know what's happening in her sessions, he would look controlling and nosy, even though all of us who have been there understand how this kind of intimate betrayal makes us distrust any talk that might be going on behind our backs. But should he ALREADY know her mind? ..her whys? ..her remorse? Yeah, two years in, it should be like her head is made of glass. Instead, he's had really damning new revelations just six months ago.

I'll be honest, I learned the hard way that the "unmet needs" fallacy is poison to R. If you read my profile, you can see pretty plainly how, in practice, it resulted in new and worse cheating. All it does is validate the bullshit rationalizations of the WS, so that next time life gets stressful, they can justify whatever perfidy they want.

I believe if I were Downtrodden, I'd fire every therapist involved and go back to the drawing board for a fresh start, and if WS balked, I'd make that start in divorce court.

Chamomile Tea:

I absolutely agree that WW's awful IC is on her (WW). It is clear that IC is NO friend of the marriage, and so it is on WW to push back against the IC's atrocious takes and find a new IC to work with, but WW clearly will not do this.

The harder the line Downtrodden takes, the better, in my estimation.

There are several of you here who appear to be dealing with Covert narcissism.

This has been something that I have considered, as a close friend of mine is currently in the process of divorcing their Covert Narc spouse.

That being said, I have to be careful of the Narc label, as my WW has diagnosed her AP as a classic Narc (likely is), and has gone down a freaking rabbit hole of understanding Narc abuse, all the aspects of leaving a narc behind, etc. She's very touchy about that.

Part of my objection to IC before MC is that the IC has incentive not to fix the marriage in order to keep getting paid, or keep it in limbo for the same reason.

My mind defaults to this assumption for ALL therapy/counseling. It's a multi-billion dollar business, maybe even trillions, because mainstream society has decided it's "cool and hip" to have some mental "issue" and "trauma"...

I darn near refuse to use the word "trauma" because of how over played it is in society.

The other objection I have to IC is that the therapist becomes like the OM or OW someone who has a secret relationship with your WW which you are excluded from. And when you are paying it's like your WW using your credit card to take OM out to dinner.

What is the personal life of the therapist divorced, separated, single, man hater or enemy of marriage etc?

This is part of why I am struggling with the fact that my WW hasn't shared anything from IC, aside from the attack against me. As far as the C's personal life, I don't know. I haven't dug that far in. I have dug in far enough to learn that he is NOT a fully licensed C, but is instead labeled as an Unlicensed Psychotherapist by the state. His "training" appears to be a pretty widely known about "Academy of Modern Applied Psychology" that appears to offer a 6-7 month program for $200... Not sure of all those details, but that was the quick 3 minute google run.

WontBeFooledAgai(n):

I appreciate the feedback. There was a lot in your response, so I'm not going to try and respond to it all, but I did read it and comprehend it.

I know I can D her, and move on. I am struggling to take that option, and that is something that I am trying to work through. Mostly for the "worse" in "for better or worse", I am still very much attached to her. I was raised in a very old fashioned manner, including a firm belief structure that did not support D, and when I met her, pursued her, married her, and built a life for us, I attached myself to her in a very permanent way. It's taking a lot of digging, effort, and pain/suffering to break those bonds and realize that the person that I did all of those things with someone that was willing to throw that attachment away because, and I quote, "I believed the lie that I deserved more than I was getting", and "I was seeking the approval of other men because my father passed away when I was a pre-teen". Those are her direct quotes from a recent conversation where I asked directly about the "why", in an indirect conversation about her IC to see how she would handle it. She didn't offer any further detail from her IC, which wasn't unexpected, but certainly left me upset.

Firstly, why are you even considering R at this point? She has degraded you, has no respect for you. Does not have any empathy for you. She is blameshifting and DARVO-ing the heck out of you.

Until her mindset changes, she is not safe for you.

See above for why I am trying R. I probably sound like a weak willed p*ss, but that's truly not the case. I held a fair amount of pride in the fact that she is the only one I have ever been with in anyway/shape/form. That's not to make myself sound good, important, or otherwise, it's just the truth. Given that she has taken that, broken it, and is now wanting R, just on her terms it seems, makes this extremely difficult for me to cut ties and end it.

It's not necessary for the OP to have some kind of transcript of his WW's therapy session. She should ALREADY be talking to him. He should ALREADY know what she's thinking.

This was the driving force behind creating this thread. I wanted to make sure I wasn't off in la-la-land wanting to know what my WW was doing in IC.

Unfortunately, the only details I know are because she wanted weaponized a sham of a C's opinion about me over 3 words said in the heat of DDay3, and the details I know from the Chat.

I believe if I were Downtrodden, I'd fire every therapist involved and go back to the drawing board for a fresh start, and if WS balked, I'd make that start in divorce court.

While not a bad idea, I would keep the MC, and fire the IC. He truly has been beneficial, and I would recommend him to anyone on here in Northern CO.

We have an MC session coming up, and I have a list of notes prepared so I can bring this up with a neutral 3rd party involved and provide some guidance/clarity. Her reaction to this is going to be pretty telling of which way all this is going. I am only a couple days away from DDay1-plus-2yrs. I have spent 2 years in this shit, and have really been struggling since DDay3 with all of the bullshit that occurred in the first 18mos. There certainly won't be another 18mos. Something has to change.

I'll post an update with how the soon upcoming MC session goes...

[This message edited by Downtrodden at 8:29 PM, Friday, February 24th]

Reconciliation is completely on your terms.

You can absolutely insist that she gets a licensed therapist with any credentials you desire including one that specializes in infidelity and has an approach aligned with your expectations.

This is your reconciliation. Your wedding day. It’s ok to be Betrayedzilla and insist on having things your way-within reason. You’re paying for it!

If she’s got the right attitude for R, she should be able to easily accommodate.

@Downtrodden, I only have time for a shorter response so I may be leaving out some important things here. But this is what has stood out to me in your most recent post so far...

1. That your WW's AP may have lied to her, does not mitigate her actions in ANY way. At the end of the day, she entered into a relationship with another man fully knowing she was lying to and deceiving YOU, just the same. Whether she was being lied to and deceived by her so called NPD AP or not.

2. Oh my, your WW's IC is a 'he', and a quack too. This is EXTREMELY bad, even worse than I thought!

3. Friend, you are in serious trouble, and your "old-fashioned" beliefs keeping you tied to someone who does not share them, will get you eaten alive. What if I were to tell you that it is in the Bible in many places that God does NOT want us to be simps.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:14 PM, Friday, February 24th]

And last but not least...RE your title, you are NOT in R. Your WW is nowhere near remorseful--a condition needed for R even to be possible, and if she is even "regretful", it is because she entered into an affair with an NPD and got tricked, which by the way is not the same as being regretful she had an affair and ruined the marriage. Please be fully aware of that.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:48 PM, Friday, February 24th]

We have an MC session coming up, and I have a list of notes prepared so I can bring this up with a neutral 3rd party involved and provide some guidance/clarity. Her reaction to this is going to be pretty telling of which way all this is going.

I think the case you want to make here is that it's not some kind of arbitrary decision pulled up out of the blue. Your WW is NOT making progress. Right now, she's still making bizarre correlations about "seeking approval" because her dad died in her formative years. Maybe that sounds like a pretty good "why" in her head, but at the bottom line she was a person who knew right from wrong and whose word meant less than nothing when it really mattered. That's about character, not about being a victim of unhappy circumstances. She demonstrably lacked integrity and this went on FOR YEARS. How are you supposed to believe her character has improved? Her dad's still dead. That's not going to change.

I know it sounds really nuanced because these events in our formative years do affect the way our minds work, but at the bottom line, the answer is that the WS is self-involved. There can be myriad reasons for that and it may be helpful to know what those reasons are, but these things say nothing about our values. And when you think about it, it's the values system that has to be fixed. This can't be circumvented or fudged, because if you are still a person who believes that there are ANY circumstances which can make cheating a legitimate choice, you're still a person who's capable of cheating. THAT's the part that has to be left behind, the part that bargained and rationalized.

We live in a "shades of gray" society. We're taught socially to reject absolutes. This, however, is a case in which there can't be middle ground, because if there is, there's no point in R. We'd only be accepting back the same cheater who betrayed us. There HAS to be change and that change MUST be absolute. Integrity isn't done in half-measures. You either have it or you don't.

You've already invested several years in this, and that's okay. Not every WS can turn it around on a dime. But talking is healing. What's the point of staying with a partner when there's no REAL emotional intimacy? You don't need a written transcript from her IC to know that she's not making progress. You can tell that because your WW still doesn't get it and your marriage is circling the drain.

1. ChamomileTea gave you some good stuff. That she wanted male approval due to her Dad's passing when she was young is indeed, NOT a Why. A real Why addresses *why* she ALLOWED herself to lie and betray YOU.

2. You may want to read some of the threads by the WWs on the Wayward Forum. The ones who 'woke up' are typically the ones who had BHs who would NOT stand to be in infidelity. These WW--the ones who woke up--start by running around like scalded cats willing to do anything to save the marriage i.e., regret. Then they do the deeper work to understand the pain their BH is in i.e., remorse, and as important the work to become a safe partner and person. That is when R really starts.

The WW who 'woke up' typically do NOT have/had BHs as forbearing as you and a few other BHs on here seem to be. To this end, FRIEND, YOU ARE NOWHERE NEAR R. I mean, right now your WW isn't even at regret. She doesn't seems willing to do anything hard to save your marriage, hell she expects you to respect her pain of getting her heart broken by NPD AP. Gross! Nevermind trying to understand YOUR pain or become a safe partner. Hell there is even the possibility for all that we know that she and her male 'therapist' may be on their way to an affair if they are not in one already!

I will be more blunt. At your current plan right now, YOU ARE HEADED FOR FAILURE.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:43 AM, Sunday, February 26th]

Update, as promised, but later than expected.

Started the conversation with the MC by asking if I was wrong for expecting that some level of the IC work would be shared/discussed during MC or conversations between us at home. He agreed with me that some level of sharing from the IC sessions would be reasonable, if she wanted. He did stress that it was her IC work and that the confidentiality thereof was important at some level.

He then asked my WW if she had anything she wanted to share in the setting of the MC session, and she rattled on about working on her stuff, but very little that had to do with the A. I was, reasonably IMO, upset with this narrative as it felt very dismissive/avoiding/etc (much like the first 18mos between DDay1 and DDay3). When I shared that I was asking about this as I felt there as "extremely unprofessional and inappropriate" communication between her and her IC, which she responded to by giving me a "shocked and perplexed" look and asking what I was talking about.

At this point, I grabbed my notes and shared the verbatim quotes that I had from their chat conversations, my concerns, and what I knew about this guy and his lack of creds/licensing.

Apparently, the "unlicensed psychotherapist" registration with the state is something that they did away with in 2020(1)?. Prior to that it was a status that could be applied for while a newly created therapist was finishing school and applying for jobs. Apparently it was done away with because it did allow quacks like this MF'er to list themselves as "State Approved" therapists despite not having met the requirements for a proper license. However, in the infinite wisdom of all things government (completely and utterly useless) they allowed people with that registration to be "grandfathered in".

The MC shared that this guy was likely not only not helping, but likely giving my WW "bad" advice and direction, quite possibly with the intention of creating more business for himself. My WW did agree to fire the IC without any real hesitation when the MC asked what she thought of the whole situation.

Without delving to much further in, as I honestly don't feel like typing it all out, I honestly expect that I am back in "shock" again, given the discovery of her blaming me for lack of progress, saying that she's been doing all the work, and that I haven't been trying hard enough. Rather than being angry/hurt/sad etc, I am just numb again.

Kinda over it all.

Thanks again for all the responses. It has been nice to have you folks offer your insights and suggestions. I have a few folks that I talk to about this in person, but none of them have any real perspective that is relevant.

DT

Please go back and reread your posts on this thread as detached and dispassionately as possible. Be honest with yourself, what would your advice be if someone else had started this thread? After two years, what are you fighting for?

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

OP, (can’t bring myself to use your chosen name)

It’s time to focus on you! You’re not gonna fix your wife and it doesn’t look like she wants to pull the knife out of your back….instead, it seems she enjoys giving it a twist every once and a while with her DARVO bull.

Although my wife never cheated on me, we had serious issues. Bad enough that I was convinced she was being unfaithful! A poly later confirmed her innocence. But there was still a huge lack of respect for me.

I was 40lbs overweight and had just turned 50 years old.

I decided to work on my inner and outer self. I read books on being a strong male, researched Stoicism and stuff like that. I went strict diet and hit the gym. My wife thought I was just going through a phase, but as she watched me progress she could tell I was serious….and something changed in HER. I started seeing respect and intimacy return as I replaced fat with lean muscle. That’s what helped change my wife….seeing that I cared enough about ME to work on MYSELF (all the while, not giving her much attention, not trying to fix her).

Two years later and I’m in the best shape of my life, including a six-pack at 52 years old! Our marriage is also the best it’s been in years. Once my wife started responding positively, I would let her back in more and more.

That’s what worked for my marriage. Please consider it. Even if it didn’t help my marriage, I got in great shape, off HBP meds, and would go into single life looking good and fit for the dating scene.

It’s been about 2 years since DD1 for you? What if you’ve been hitting the gym the whole time? How would your position be different from now?

I met her, pursued her, married her, and built a life for us, I attached myself to her in a very permanent way.

Strongly suggest you spend some time reading about the sunk cost fallacy.

But mainly, big picture, reading your thread, your WW doesn't like being married to you. She feels now that her needs are unmet in the context of your marriage. She has felt that way for a long time. She decided that she would act on those feelings by cheating on you, as opposed to, say, working with you to try to find a middle ground where at least some of her needs get met, and some of yours do as well. That latter approach would be the approach of somebody who actually wanted to work on the marriage. She has not pursued that latter approach because she does not want to work on the marriage.

Instead, she has latched onto a quack IC who essentially just provides a feedback loop amplifying what she already believes to be true, the oldest trick in the schlock therapy book. I'd wager that she spends time trolling the internet looking at unmet needs stuff as well. We all know that the AI driving socials is also merely a feedback loop, feeding web surfers more stuff that they already believe.

Give that trajectory, there is pretty much no way you'll actually reconcile with your WW. You might both decide to white knuckle it and remain married, but your two paths are not in any way converging.

Around end of year 2 (and I realize you have several different timelines going on), that's around the time that many BH's have found some level of stasis in the emotional roller coaster and the seething sense of anger and injustice. It begins what is often called the "Plain of Lethal Flatness" -- standing on the edge of the Mojave, looking across the waste, realizing that this is your path, for life. This is as good as it's gonna get. This acid presence will forever be your companion. It's a node for many couples, a decision point. Your questions here are 100% normal and consistent with this position in your journey.

By the way, that middle ground bit, that leaps out at me as a reader of your posts. "I have never recognized Valentine's Day" he grumbleth. So rigid over such a trivial matter. By your own description, you've never been with another woman. So it's more accurate to say "I have never recognized Valentine's Day with this one particular woman, who is my wife." Why would you single her out as the one woman among the many women she must certainly know who gets no love from her man on VD? What entitles you to arrogate to yourself that choice for your wife's life? If your wife enjoys a bit of flowers and gooey declarations of love on VD, what chafes you about giving something so easy to give?

I point that out because I conclude, based on what you post, that her self-perceived needs in the marriage in fact are not being met. I'm not trying to kick you when you're down. It just seems that you actually don't like her, and it also seems that she doesn't like you. You guys started your relationship as babies, with brains not fully formed. It looks to me that you have matured in different directions emotionally. Maybe it really is time to cut the umbilical, to give each of you a chance to find a more compatible mate.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:49 PM, Thursday, March 9th]

DT - since dday1, you've been in R all by yourself.

Wanna know what's much more fun?

Being all by yourself, but not in R.

Honestly, being right at 2 years, I am really starting to lean towards that this can't be saved, but I have been trying to not make a "rash" decision when everything I read says that it's 2-5 years before the BS can really process/heal/move on.

First, I don't know whose rectum this 2-5 years estimate come from. Is it based on a study? Anecdotal evidence? Anybody know?

Second, the people who have successfully reconciled usually say that the "2-5 years" estimate is based on when the lies stop and their waywards actively began work on themselves and marriage. Each new Dday set the clock back to Day 0. How can a wound heal when it keeps getting ripped open?

Third, based purely on my experience and others (so take of that what you will), I think you can safely gauge within 6 months whether your partner is a candidate for R. When I'm feeling generous, I'll concede that it takes certain waywards longer to "get it" than others. But then again, if you truly love someone-- hell, if you even like someone-- can you really watch them in a state of profound grief and confusion for half a year and keep hurting them?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:23 PM, Thursday, March 9th]