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Just Found Out :
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Lalala12 ( new member #79196) posted at 3:41 PM on Friday, September 16th, 2022

Wow… just wow… rolleyes

This comment is so disrespectful on so many level towards anyone with an illness or a disability. Guys, I hope you find partners in life that wouldn’t abandon you just because you became ill and not sexy and fun anymore…

If OP had thoughts about dropping his wife as a hot potato because of her diagnose (for the record I don’t think you are that kind of person OP), then I would imagine he was not that committed to the marriage, right?
Is there not a vow that says "in sickness and in health"?

Infidelity is for sure a reason to divorce but if the true reason here is that the BS wants out because of her illness then if one holds honesty as a value, he should be honest with her and tell her the full truth and when he actually started having doubts about leaving her.

OP, as I said I don’t think this applies to you. I think you have such a delicate situation on your hands, and I hope you will find your path (whatever that may be) with honesty and honor.

As for her shame spiral, it might take her a good IC and some time before she feels stronger and more confident in herself again and be able to lead R. Especially if she was in a very negative headspace before this all happened. You don’t need to excuse bad behavior or blame shifting or anything of the sort, but allow her some time to become stronger, should you decide that R if what you want.

posts: 17   ·   registered: Jul. 29th, 2021
id 8755566
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Tanner ( member #72235) posted at 4:44 PM on Friday, September 16th, 2022

If OP had thoughts about dropping his wife as a hot potato because of her diagnose (for the record I don’t think you are that kind of person OP), then I would imagine he was not that committed to the marriage, right?
Is there not a vow that says "in sickness and in health"?

This is JFO, she wasn’t committed to the M. The vows say forsake all others, she broke that. When she stepped out of the M, she put all of that at risk, he now has to evaluate the whole picture to move forward.

Dday Sept 7 2019 doing well in R
BH M 31 years

posts: 1829   ·   registered: Dec. 5th, 2019   ·   location: Texas DFW
id 8755590
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Lalala12 ( new member #79196) posted at 4:56 PM on Friday, September 16th, 2022

Tanner, I’m referring to the marriage and the commitment before the infidelity and in particular to the comment below

You obviously didn’t go into this marriage knowing that your WW had MS. So, if you have had thoughts about wanting out of the marriage since the MS diagnosis, but stuffed those thoughts down, this is your opportunity to get out of the marriage now, without severe judgment

posts: 17   ·   registered: Jul. 29th, 2021
id 8755594
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Tanner ( member #72235) posted at 5:12 PM on Friday, September 16th, 2022

Thank you for clarifying. This hit close to home with me. We have a severe special needs Son that requires a lot of care, it was triggery and I believe in sickness and health extends to the kids also.

My WW put his care in jeopardy when she stepped out of the M.

Sorry for the T/J

[This message edited by Tanner at 5:20 PM, Friday, September 16th]

Dday Sept 7 2019 doing well in R
BH M 31 years

posts: 1829   ·   registered: Dec. 5th, 2019   ·   location: Texas DFW
id 8755601
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 6:00 PM on Friday, September 16th, 2022

I have no issue had PFB84 decided infidelity was a dealbreaker and filed for divorce due to that. None at all.

In sickness and in health.

I take my vows seriously. As does PFB84 as can be seen in his pain when the vows are broken. I guess they know what lies ahead, and they will deal with that as things develop. It might require a different form of "marriage" or alternatives that would not ordinarily be within a "normal" marriage, but that’s their storm to battle. Nobody asked for MS – the wife didn’t do anything that made her get MS – but she did create the affair. Using the infidelity as an excuse to divorce because of her illness… to me that would reflect poorly on anyone.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10946   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8755615
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faithfulman ( member #66002) posted at 6:23 PM on Friday, September 16th, 2022

I've had to deal with disability and disease in loved ones. I stuck it out. I AM sticking it out. I get what the poster was saying, even if it was stated unartfully.

It's natural to have moments of crisis of commitment during the course of taking care of someone. People have thoughts, the question is, what do they do when they have those thoughts?

The OP appears to be a committed guy. The post about the thoughts he may have had prior to the cheating... it's ugly to think about, but, human as well.

However, once cheating is introduced into the mix, I think the judgement hammer should go away entirely.

It is certainly valid to re-consider the prospect of taking care of someone - health conditions or not - when they have betrayed you.

posts: 936   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2018
id 8755616
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Unhinged ( member #47977) posted at 6:32 PM on Friday, September 16th, 2022

...trying to comprehend that the person I thought I knew better than anyone in the world did this.

Brother, I damned near drove myself nuts trying to comprehend the incomprehensible. I'm one of those folks who just has to understand things. I have and know my limits, of course. I'm pretty sure I don't qualify to Mensa. Still, when I come across something that's baffling, my natural inclination is to figure out WTF!

When it came to trying to comprehend my XWW and what she did, there were very little resources upon which to draw. It's not like I could look her up in a library, read a few texts and go "oh! I get it!"

If anything helped at all, it was following the stories and then getting to know(ish) a few WWs on this site. I started reading in the Wayward Side forum. Now, I don't recommend you do this any time soon. That forum is triggersville for newbies betrayed spouses.

Of course, endless conversations with my XWW helped as much as she was capable of comprehending it all herself. That took a lot of time and a lot of therapy. It was at least a year or so, if not longer.

Set aside trying to comprehend your WW and her actions for a while. Focus on you, your recovery and healing. It takes the average Joe about a year to recover. It took me about 10 months. It takes most couple at least two years to reconcile and it takes even longer to heal.

You've got a long road ahead of you, sir. Take it one day at a time, one step at a time, and remember to be kind and gentle with yourself. None of this shit is easy.

Married 2005
D-Day April, 2015
Divorced May, 2022

"The Universe is not short on wake-up calls. We're just quick to hit the snooze button." -Brene Brown

posts: 6592   ·   registered: May. 21st, 2015   ·   location: Colorado
id 8755618
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Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 12:49 AM on Saturday, September 17th, 2022

I know a 62 year old woman with MS. She walks with a cane. That’s it. She lives alone with a cat. Drives a car. Is close to her siblings. Her MS showed up in her early 20s. MS does not have to be a death sentence. It has to be managed.
Please stop talking about him abandoning his marriage because of it. If he decides to D I hope the illness is not the reason.

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 3500   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8755680
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 PFB84 (original poster member #80715) posted at 1:42 AM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

Well this hasn't gone the direction i expected! Lol.

To clarify some things, right now she does NOT have progressive MS. She has whats called relapsing remitting which does not always progress. It can change to progressive later, and it can still get worse but overall its not as bad of a diagnosis. Her life now is probably 90% normal and it has not gotten worse at all since diagnosis a few years ago.

Also, I never for a second considered leaving when i found out, and if i did decide to D it would not be because of MS. She would say to me routinely when she was feeling down "You didnt sign up for this." And i would always answer "Yes, I did."

The cheating i certainly did not sign up for though and the fact that i stood by her side through it all makes her betrayal that much more appalling to me.

Just got back from the trip. I had a great time and I am glad i went.

We have a couples therapy thing tomorrow in addition to both IC. I have been clear going in to this that if its to facilitate better communication about what we're going through and what she did, great. I think i can use some help communicating right now. If it starts leaning towards anything that sounds like what has been described here in typical MC and blaming our relationship for her choices, i will not go again. Yes, i know its too soon for MC, just giving it a try.

posts: 57   ·   registered: Aug. 25th, 2022
id 8755912
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 PFB84 (original poster member #80715) posted at 3:14 AM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

Question- how much are we each supposed to talk about our IC?

posts: 57   ·   registered: Aug. 25th, 2022
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leafields ( member #63517) posted at 6:20 AM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

That is up to you and what you're comfortable sharing. Because everybody is different, that can mean different things. For example, I would discuss my homework or certain things I was working on, but didn't get into nitty gritty details.

My XWH rarely discussed anything with me about his IC. I asked how it was, but he was not very forth-coming. Also, I never saw him do any homework. The only thing he did was to find a MC.

One of the first things out MC said was that we'd look at why XWH went outside the M to get his needs met. I told the MC that I respectfully disagreed with that premise, so the MC back-tracked a little of and said we'd work on communication.

Just remember, any M issues may be 50/50, but the A is 100% on your WW.

Infidelity is so gut-wrenchingly painful.

BW M 34years, Dday 1: March 2018, Dday 2: August 2019, D final 2/25/21

posts: 1336   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2018   ·   location: Washington State
id 8755936
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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 2:37 PM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

I think your ww needs to share a decent amount of what she learns about herself and the strategies she is going to use to change. If she doesn't, you'll end up wondering if she is making any progress. That may not be every session but when she hits a milestone of understanding or progress.

I dont think you need to share anything because you did not betray her but you probably will share a bit as you start to heal.

posts: 650   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8755962
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HarryD ( member #72423) posted at 2:56 PM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

Mind went no wear. My wife could never admitted she was wrong. That she hurt me. It was all how the world just screw her. And how I wasn’t doing enough for her. You can do for her, but it ends there. She would not do for me

[This message edited by HarryD at 2:57 PM, Monday, September 19th]

posts: 114   ·   registered: Dec. 30th, 2019   ·   location: NY
id 8755966
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 3:44 PM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

A very common problem we see here is when a spouse shares what their spouse brought home from IC. Keep in mind a couple of things:
Its human nature to try to justify actions. If her IC were – for example – to hint at the OM being an opportunist then your wife might grab that and hang on to that. The context at IC might be "if you recognize OM as an opportunist then why did you give way to him?". When she comes home and you are waiting to pump her for what IC did her version might be "OM was an opportunist". The "why did you fall for him" part is minimized or even forgotten.

Or maybe the IC isn’t focusing on the affair as is because the IC thinks other issues are more important, or could be the catalyst for why she cheated. Only you get tired waiting for what is the KEY ISSUE for you.
It’s individual counseling, keep it that way.

I think the WS can share with you what she wants to from IC, but the IC is for HER. Any improvement or progress should be something you see in her, her actions, her behaviors and so on.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10946   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8755978
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ChamomileTea ( Guide #53574) posted at 4:14 PM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

Question- how much are we each supposed to talk about our IC?

There's no right or wrong answer to that. A lot of people will use their session with IC as a jumping off point for discussion at home, but others need a safe space to work in. I think, as BS's, it's possible to feel a certain sense of insecurity with the idea that there's a relationship our WS is involved in which doesn't include us because it's so obviously echoing our infidelity injury. We're so wary to the idea that our WS might have secrets, right?

I think the important thing isn't whether our WS is coming home and regurgitating their entire session, rather that they're communicating with us as well, and honestly too. It's an absolute outrage for a WS to come to us saying s/he doesn't "feel safe". rolleyes The first thought naturally, "How dare you?..you're not the one who just got stabbed in the back", but just underlying that is, "You better believe it, buddy, because I'm fed up and you're on real thin ice".

While it's true that there are some absolutely horrible, irredeemable WS out there who will never change and are only interested in keeping their home deal going for their own selfish reasons, there are others who want nothing more than to make it right and be a better person. Those ones are terrified that underneath it all they're not enough and that they're going to fuck it up. They're afraid that if you SEE them, you're going to run for the hills, and it's not an irrational fear because all this is happening right on the brink of you doing just that.

We have a couples therapy thing tomorrow in addition to both IC. I have been clear going in to this that if its to facilitate better communication about what we're going through and what she did, great. I think i can use some help communicating right now. If it starts leaning towards anything that sounds like what has been described here in typical MC and blaming our relationship for her choices, i will not go again. Yes, i know its too soon for MC, just giving it a try.


MC isn't always bad. You just have to be strong enough to stand up to any therapist who starts blame-shifting. That "unmet needs" model of therapy that Leafields mentioned is still out there and still being taught in training programs. It's a really nuanced subject though and has utterly NOTHING to do with infidelity if you ask me. I've got a post on my profile about it that you'll find if you click the little person icon in the upper right corner of this post. The thing to remember is to never leave a blame-shift on the table at MC. Correct it right there, on the spot, so it doesn't leave the office with you.

You're smart. Trust your gut. It's still there. We doubt our own judgment after intimate betrayal, and that's just rational to an extent. We didn't see the danger. But your gut's still there and you can still trust it. Once your eyes have been opened, you can't NOT see. smile

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)Married 38 years; in R with fWH for 7

No one can make you into a liar but you.

posts: 5967   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8755988
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 PFB84 (original poster member #80715) posted at 4:44 PM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

Thank you for the input as always.

She actually just finished her IC a few minutes ago and called me immediately after to discuss. I did not press for details or anything. Sounds like it was mostly introductory and she said they didn't talk about anything she had not already said to me. This was sort of a "first appointment she could get" situation so we aren't sure yet if this is her long term solution. I think she is still hoping for someone to give her a magic answer about why she did this. They talked about dissociation which I guess seems like another term for the fog. I still see it as a bit of a cop out. I don't think she's lying about it, but I also don't think this was a break from reality either and that is her way of explaining to herself why she made these decisions, rather than admitting that ultimately she did it because the opportunity presented itself and she wanted to. It's true that its the polar opposite of her usual character, but I still can't accept any version of a "that wasn't really me" type explanation.


Regarding the blame shifting in MC, while I plan to confront it immediately if it happens, I honestly think my WW would stamp that out before I could even argue it. If anything in her guilt she is making me out to be this idyllic perfect husband which of course was not the case either. Will update tonight afterwards.

posts: 57   ·   registered: Aug. 25th, 2022
id 8756001
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 5:12 PM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

MC can be great if the MC addresses the A first and keeps addressing it and if the MC thinks te A came from the WS's issues and not from issues in the M.

Sharing IC ... IC is a work in progress. If I had shared everything that came up in my sessions, my W would have been very scared, because I worked on deciding between R & D for 90 days. My W, OTOH, talked about her self-hate in IC, and I believe the act of voicing negative self-talk increases its power, so W could not talk about that with me - that's what she had an IC for. (Her IC believes dysfunctions come from negative self-talk, and sessions are often about actually hearing the messages and learning to replace attacking self-talk with nurturing self-talk. I can't do that for my W.)

I recommend as strongly as possible that you ask your W to sign a release that allows her IC to talk with you and share your W's goals and progress.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 27624   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8756010
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Dude67 ( member #75700) posted at 5:22 PM on Monday, September 19th, 2022

PFB84 - I really liked what you said that your WW can’t say that cheating is not who she really is.

A wayward may be the best person, best parent, best partner, except for their cheating. The phrase so common is that the A was totally out of character. And perhaps it was. However, they cheated regardless of their supposedly good character.

Assuming R, what the wayward needs to grasp moving forward post A is that they are, and will forever be, both of these people.

posts: 509   ·   registered: Oct. 21st, 2020
id 8756015
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 PFB84 (original poster member #80715) posted at 3:26 AM on Tuesday, September 20th, 2022

MC was ok. Nothing terrible but mainly focused on her issues. Just reinforced what others have said that right now ic is more important.

The therapist definitely hinted a couple times at the "disconnect" in our relationship that allowed this and my wife corrected her and said it was a disconnect in her, not our marriage. Will give her 1 more shot to see if she's going to be of any real help. Call me impatient but the cheating was probably the thing she talked about the least. I know background is important but I'd hoped for some discussion on the damn reason we were there.

posts: 57   ·   registered: Aug. 25th, 2022
id 8756140
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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 4:31 AM on Tuesday, September 20th, 2022

Well, you predicted it right; your wife corrected the marriage counselor. Which is nice.

The fact that the MC had to be corrected shows that they either 1) have less experience with infidelity or 2) they have the pov that marriage can be the cause of it. Not a very good sign unless they bring a boatload of other skills to the table or pivot hard from the initial take.

posts: 650   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8756147
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