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I have read and re-read everyone's feedback and it HAS helped. I do now lean toward the role that duplicity AND cognitive dissonance both play in the mind, will and emotions of the WS before and during the A. I just wish I had been more discerning, more attuned to this insight when I was faced with that terrible reality. I was just so caught up in the maelstrom of hurt and confusion of it all at the time. A hurt and confusion that lasted a long, long time.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 3:36 AM, Saturday, September 3rd]

My XWH is a diagnosed covert narc, so that may play into things.

He thought the Bill Cosby/sexual abuse/roofie issues were awful. Yet, he and AP2 got high, she passed out and he groped her. I know he was hoping she'd become conscious and have sex... He was confused when I asked if AP was pressing charges.

That, to me, is cognitive dissonance.

Duplicity - he was rarely truthful with me. He's recently remarried, but hasn't been truthful with his new family. They think he's all cowboy, but I know he has major grass/hay allergies and doesn't like cows or horses, but pretending he does.

To me, this is duplicity.

But to say I didn’t know that I was gambling everything would be absurd. It’s just when you gamble it depends on what you feel you are gambling, is it of value to you.

You asked for me to elaborate what this means in terms of loving/not loving my husband.

I was in love with him for more than a couple of decades. But my definition prior to my affair would have been about feelings only. And don’t get me wrong, I think the way we think or feel comes out in our actions so I don’t think it was that I necessarily had a terrible definition of love, but it was a limited one.

I was very transactional on some of the ways I operated around that. I believed if I did everything he would love me more. I was compliant and deferred to him far too much.

I should have simply loved myself more, and not made it his responsibility to make me happy. I also always thought it was my job to make him happy and held myself responsible if I did not. Even if it had nothing to do with me. (That came from foo) In reality, it was our own responsibility to make ourselves happy and to enhance that with our relationship.

But then we went through a period (over a year) where we were overly busy and I kept trying to keep up with all that hustling I did to "earn his love" and I just felt alone. The value of the relationship for me had deteriorated.

There were other factors compounding this, we were close to empty nest. I was working 14-18 hour days, I felt the best years of my life was gone and nothing brought me any joy.

Had I had integrity and commitment I would have said let’s go see someone, this isn’t working. And then made a decision to stay or go after a period of time.

So when I said gambled, part of me felt I had nothing to lose. Part of me felt he would never find out.

And I don’t believe I deliberately set out to destroy him, more I had convinced myself that he married me because his last girlfriend didn’t want him. That’s a complicated story, but she was someone who didn’t give a shit about him but then came running back the minute we started dating. As soon as she had him back and assumed she ruined our relationship, she dumped him again and he came running back. Then he wanted to do swinging after that and I think it cemented for me in some way that I wasn’t enough.

I gave too much in our relationship and he Gave a normal amount. And combining that with several other things, I had myself believing during this disconnection that I was convenient and he just wanted someone to take care of him.

None of this is an excuse to cheat, there were clearly far better choices. But it’s just simply what I felt our circumstances to be. I do not believe any of that today of course.

So I was convinced neither of us valued the relationship anymore. Yet I didn’t ask him, I didn’t tell him how I felt, I did none of those things. I was a complete fool.

In his view we were busy but his commitment was there. He felt he loved me, I loved him and we could handle this busy period of opening a business and enjoy time together on the other side. He just felt we were that solid. So of course he was devastated when I confessed. I knew he wouldn’t have a positive reaction, but I did not anticipate that.

I agree with the way Hikingout unravels the layers of wayward dysfunctional thinking. I experienced similar beliefs and coping, and I know my H did as well.

"You cheated on me, but you love me and want to stay with me?"

I believe this is one of the 'costs' for a BS. That if we decide to stay we are choosing to live in a constant state of cognitive dissonance.

There is no question, especially to all those who D, that BS who reconcile have to experience some degree of cognitive dissonance.

Everyone has to hold two opposing thoughts now, even though they do not want to: Cheating is unacceptable. I'm staying with someone who cheated on me. Many also have to hold the two opposing thoughts of Cheating is a dealbreaker; I'm staying with a cheater.

BS find different ways to achieve that cognitive dissonance and justify staying, looking for why their situation is different or acceptable. Some focus on the new and improved WS, some hang on to the idea that they were and are truly loved, some talk about needing to stay for the kids, some say, "But if it happens again, I'm gone," some say, "If it was a long term A, I wouldn't R," or "If there were feelings involved, then I would leave." Meaning: "But since it's not, I can go against my beliefs." Cognitive dissonance. This is exactly what WS do when thinking about their own behavior. They come up with reasons to justify their conduct as different or acceptable even as they admit that it's not.

I feel that telling their spouse, "I never stopped loving you or wanting to stay married to you" is a form of this. They are saying and believing this for their own benefit, not yours. This is how they made hurting you ok in their minds--"They weren't betraying in their hearts, just their bodies. See! It's fine." If they admit that their behavior was unloving, they lose their ability to justify their behavior as acceptable. Even to themselves.

And many BS cannot stomach the idea of their WS not loving them, even with all evidence to the contrary. Arguing the point won't matter. Accepting that their WS didn't love them may, for them, be more than they can handle and still comfortably reconcile. So their minds will never allow that version of reality. And what does it matter if that's what they believe? If it helps them R while still being smart about it (which admittedly many are not), then their view is good. My own version of reality does not need to be pushed on them.

But not all cognitive dissonance is beneficial or harmless. The WS has shown this. A lot of it allows you to hide from yourself and your life and the world that you live in. If you are an avoidant type (I am not at all, but my H is. I prefer controlling over denying as a means of unhealthy coping. Lol) if you are avoidant, cognitive dissonance is your buddy. It walks with you on the daily. My H wants, needs to see things as he wants to see them, not as they are. Some people do have somewhat of an evil intent (the many personality disordered types) but some are simply selfishly broken and avoidant. That's my H. But yes, his cognitive dissonance is deeply rooted in his FOO. His lens is very skewed. It preserves his self-esteem. This is how they roll in his family.

Some do it more and some do it less, but cognitive dissonance is very real and very common. Duplicitous? Evil? Intentionally harmful? Much less so.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:40 AM, Saturday, September 3rd]

I am just not here. I am leaning more toward the BS and WS having very different definitions of love, and/or the WS either possessing either a lesser version or a warped perception of the love they had for the BS while under the influence of full blown CD.

LOL - if we both spent $5 plus the cost of transport to the same place, we could share coffee and conversation. And we might possibly deepen our understanding of this part of life.

OIN reminds that I certainly experienced cognitive dissonance during my healing process.

- For example, I got almost 24 hours of relief when my W said she was never going to leave me. Then I realized she was leaving me whenever she was with ow or on the phone with her or even thinking of her.

- it still (11 years and counting) boggles my mind that my W bought a 'sort of engagement ring' for ow because our state didn't recognize same gender Ms. But that was going to change in 6 months - the bigamy law was never under discussion. How could she be engaged to one person while M to another?!

But W's thought process during the A was so bizarre that I simply don't credit it. I see my W during the A as 'sick', and I like to give her support when she's sick. Mind you, others do not see sickness or see the sickness aspect as a smaller part of the equation.

Perhaps an apt analogy is how repeated experiments may have similar results, but there are usually outliers. I view the mind-boggling statements as outliers - experimental errors. One thing to note is that I'm not aware of having to tie myself up in knots to see my W's A as a symptom of an illness; rather, I'd have to work hard to sense it as anything else.

Each of us blazes our own trail.

Wow, I stepped away for a day and got more rich input from contributors. I have read the posts and it prompted a new thought but I want to let it steep for a while and will respond after re-reading them again as I want to do them justice. Thank you all so much.

I don’t see much relevance in debating duplicity when it comes to affairs. Short of the WS who has a drunken ONS and comes home to immediately confess it, all affairs involve duplicity. I think that starts the moment the pre-WS starts to mention something about their day, their work environment, their potential interest - but stops short, maybe even for reasons not yet understood. I witnessed this in my own experience when he suddenly no longer mentioned "her" whenever he prattled about his day.

I see the bigger debate when it comes to cognitive dissonance…and this is where we have to consider the concept of degrees. I think of cognitive dissonance as being the confusion that comes from holding two opposing thoughts in your head. And as a general "rule", I’m not sure the typical WS holds a a lot of conflict when facing the cognitive dissonance of an affair. We hear this when a WS tells us that they never stopped loving us - or that they didn’t even think of us. That’s a sign they aren’t experiencing a lot of dissonance - they are literally not that uncomfortable by holding two contradictory thoughts. So divorced from it in fact that they can literally present it to us as their reason and not even see the contradiction. They often don’t even see why we are so conflicted as a result.

Underneath this I think the whole issue boils down to our self-concept - and how much that is actually a part of who we are, how we see ourselves, vs just the projection of ourselves to be socially acceptable to the world. IOW, are you really the person you think you are? The duplicitous component can rear its head here again in that some people really are duplicitous about who they are - they intentionally depict themselves as somebody they already know they are not. Whereas others are being "tested by the fire" and are suddenly left to find themselves coming up short from their previously believed but yet unproven self-concept. (These are the WSs that later struggle to believe they actually did what they did. << THAT is cognitive dissonance.)

True cognitive dissonance is extremely uncomfortable - it threatens our very security and ability to function in the world…and it takes up an enormous amount of mental bandwidth. It’s why, as a species, we spend our lifetime searching for "truth" in all its various forms - on a day-to-day level as well as into the higher plains. It’s what your WS friend was rejecting as you tried to talk to him. (It wasn’t what you were saying…it was the cognitive dissonance what you were saying was creating. It’s also likely a large component in why he killed himself once it all really came out into the light - it’s THAT uncomfortable.). It’s why I don’t think active WSs experience a lot of it. They may experience it…but not to the same degree and they are rather quickly able to resolve it. Otherwise either the affair or the marriage would simply be intolerable.

And again, at the root of this is a poorly designed self-concept.

As to the topic of a "poorly designed self-concept", I think we all suffer from this as a by-product of the human experience. After all, we rarely begin our lives by developing it at as much as being given it. Our parents, our school, our friends all contribute to it and we initially just adopt what is given to us as our own in order to better our survival chances. The remainder of our lives are spent exploring, evaluating, adapting and discarding what we have previously and unconsciously adopted.

Some people dive into this further than others. Those that don’t operate from a construct rather than a conviction.

As an example, I was taught not to steal. It’s wrong and I’m not a thief. That was what I was taught and I believed it was an absolute of who I am. However, is that true in all circumstances? No. If what I was stealing was the life-saving medicine for my child that I I could not obtain any other way, then I absolutely would steal it and would do so at gunpoint if that was required. So not only could I be a thief but I could also steal from another while holding a gun on them. Given the right circumstance, I both could and would commit an armed robbery.

We can debate the justifications for this but they are irrelevant (largely because I have no CD as result of this realization). Thankfully I have not had this experience…just the introspection to explore it and realize the nuances in my self-concept of not being a thief. Self-concept is an ongoing evolution - influenced by both experiences and the willingness for internal exploration. And this is where I think is one of the largest divides in human nature. Some people actually want to know themselves, deeply and intimately. Some people are only forced into it by their experiences. (And some people - the disordered - are entirely incapable of it altogether.)

True cognitive dissonance is extremely uncomfortable

I'm sorry but this is somewhat incorrect. It does not REMAIN uncomfortable permanently. You find a way to make it comfortable, a justification or rationale. That is what you do when you experience it.

I'm sorry but this is somewhat incorrect.

I’m not sure if you’ve missed my point, OIN…or if I’m missing yours.

If you’ve created a justification or rationale - ie, resolved the cognitive dissonance - then of course you’re not going to feel the discomfort. I’m not arguing for the depth or breadth of CD, I feel I am literally saying what you are pointing out. That one will seek to resolve it - either through discarding one side (marriage or affair) or creating a justification/rational. The larger point was that most active WSs are not actively experiencing CD while in their affair - because of those reasons above.

And not to be combative - but you don’t have to apologize for disagreeing with me. I’m curious if your apology is instead for basically telling me I am wrong. Those are two different things - and while I’m not particularly offended by either - I do find one approach to be more palpable AND constructive.

I also kind of disagree - I don’t think CD has to be uncomfortable. And I also know as a ws that it can be uncomfortable. I would break a boundary and cry and feel awful and then still go back for my ego kibbles.

The AP treated me like crap sometimes and I never would have allowed that and stuck around in regular circumstances.

The difference might be more of the motivation to withstand the CD is different for bs versus ws.. As the bs you often have some altruistic or reasonable motivations for holding the marriage together.

A ws lives in a fantasy world - Nothing good could actually come from an affair. But CD does not have anything to do with motivation or outcome.

I still knew my husband was doing nice things for me and a good husband while justifying this emotional disconnect I was claiming to have. I knew what I was doing was wrong yet still felt good getting my kibbles. There were many moments in there I felt like total shit but did the mental gymnastics to continue. (I attribute that to the addiction piece)

I look back and think how stupid it was that I went through so much (and put my husband through so much) for nothing of any worth. But I am not a stupid woman, the CD allowed for that stupidity.

When you do things that you know is morally wrong and use justifications to continue to talk yourself into keep doing it, that is the definition of cognitive dissonance. If there was no inner conflict the justifications would not be needed. .

I am sure there are people who do not think it’s wrong to cheat but I would surmise there is some sort of disorder that most cheaters don’t have.

We may have a different definition of cognitive dissonance - which is perfectly fine but will naturally make our points seem like disagreement. 😊 (And I am SO not interested in arguing the semantics - as I feel sure is the case for both you and OIN).

For me personally, I’m less interested in the holding of two conflicting thoughts - I’m more focused toward the feeling that creates. I can hold two conflicting thoughts (ie, I’m not a thief but I’d commit armed robbery for the benefit of my child.). Obviously justification and having a solid rationale play a part in that…but once that happens, I don’t feel the conflict of cognitive dissonance. I do think we are maybe on the same page in that we will work to resolve CD…but I don’t think that stands in opposition to the belief that CD is always uncomfortable. Actually, if anything, I think it supports it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And we may be tipping over into arguing semantics while specifically trying to avoid that. 🤪. From my perspective, I just feel like the bigger point I’m trying to make is not being conveyed. Maybe it’s just minutia in the bigger picture and not relevant. I just see so many BSs that seems lost in their own CD and just cannot understand how their WS could tolerate it for so long - particularly given how they now describe it post d-day. They aren’t tolerating it - that would be too uncomfortable. They are actually resolving it - sometimes over and over again.

I guess too I may have a bit of an issue with calling it CD - same as I do with "affair fog". While I understand what it’s trying to convey, I don’t know that I believe that’s what a WS experiences while IN the affair. I’m hanging on this point because I see how the affair itself vs how it’s all described by the WS post d-day actually creates a lot of CD for BSs. You never stopped loving me but you were cheating on me?. I can personally see how that can actually be true from a WS’s perspective. But as BSs we get hung up on it because we can’t resolve the CD the way our WS could while in the affair. And on the flip side, because the WS didn’t struggle with the CD on the same level, they can’t understand why their BS just can’t accept their explanation.

Cognitive dissonance — as it was explained by our MC — is the confusing, uncomfortable part of the slippery slope and after the A is over, the rationalizations of how and why the choices were made. During the A, for the day to day, it was my wife’s compartmentalization, keeping the two world separate from the other, that kept it going.

One escapist fantasy bubble world and the other ‘harsh’ reality world of the responsibilities of paying bills, parenting, etc.

I understand compartmentalization, I was in the USMC, it was how most of my fellow Marines kept the trauma of the day in the field, and got to be happy parent at home.

It is a tool that can be utilized for good or ill.

I think betrayed spouses do lean on some compartmentalization early on after discovery too, until enough is understood about their own trauma. And that’s just to function in front of other humans, work or hanging out with family.

As to an earlier suggestion that BS who reconcile all live in CD — I can’t agree with that. Again, I think initially we do in survival mode, but once most of the facts are known, BS choose to either rug-sweep/pretend all is well or tackle the pain head on and process it.

I couldn’t have done R by living in CD or compartmentalization forever.

People closest to us can hurt us the most. That’s a reality we all live in, there is no changing that whether we R or D and start another new relationship.

I know the good and bad of my wife, and love her faults and all, just as she loves me. No pretending needed. She hurt me in the past and leans into making each NEW day as kind and caring as possible. Both things are true (even in relationships sans infidelity, people damage each other in other ways).

Let me try a different angle because I’m not satisfied with my explanation. Forgiveness please if I’m being redundant.

Let’s suppose that within an average day of the affair, the WS texts the AP immediately upon leaving the house that morning. They go on to exchange 50+ texts within the work day. The WS shares some of the content with her supportive co-worker at some point then takes a topless photo in the work bathroom while on lunch, orders a piece of sexy lingerie on break, before finalizing the flight details "to see her girlfriend that lives 10 hours away in Oregon" that weekend -while simultaneously conferring with her friend to create the ruse. She then comes home, fixes dinner, bathes the kids, and exchanges a few more sexy texts with the AP while watching TV with her spouse.

How much CD has she had to resolve throughout the day? And why is it now, post dday, that her BH has spent 25 hours of the 24 hour day just trying to grasp how she could miss their son’s first t-ball game to spend a weekend with her AP?

Hi All. Thanks again for your helpful and insightful contributions.

leafields:

He thought the Bill Cosby/sexual abuse/roofie issues were awful. Yet, he and AP2 got high, she passed out and he groped her. I know he was hoping she'd become conscious and have sex... He was confused when I asked if AP was pressing charges.

That, to me, is cognitive dissonance.

Agreed. Sounds like a clear disconnect. I am going to key on that term (disconnect) after I reply to all.

That, to me, is cognitive dissonance.

Duplicity - he was rarely truthful with me. He's recently remarried, but hasn't been truthful with his new family. They think he's all cowboy, but I know he has major grass/hay allergies and doesn't like cows or horses, but pretending he does.

To me, this is duplicity.

Once again, agreed. Note - this made me laugh, "They think he's all cowboy, but I know he has major grass/hay allergies and doesn't like cows or horses, but pretending he does." Ive lived in cowboy country and never knew one that had hay allergies AND hated livestock. Poser?

He's been diagnosed as NPD. He's a covert narc. His mask will slip eventually.

ETA: Crazy thing with NPDs, they think they're fine and everybody else is the problem.

[This message edited by leafields at 9:42 PM, Sunday, September 4th]

hikingout

Thank you for responding to my questions and for your willingness to do so with that level of transparency.

I was in love with him for more than a couple of decades. But my definition prior to my affair would have been about feelings only. And don’t get me wrong, I think the way we think or feel comes out in our actions so I don’t think it was that I necessarily had a terrible definition of love, but it was a limited one.

What I understand from what you describe here is what I have postulated concerning differing basic understanding/definitions of what love is in the first place, both before and after the A AND differing definitions by the BS and WS.

I should have simply loved myself more, and not made it his responsibility to make me happy. I also always thought it was my job to make him happy and held myself responsible if I did not. Even if it had nothing to do with me. (That came from foo) In reality, it was our own responsibility to make ourselves happy and to enhance that with our relationship.

I REALLY relate to this.

I was working 14-18 hour days

This is an aside, but....good god, how were you even functioning? How long of a period were you keeping this pace? You had to be functioning at a massive physical/emotional deficit. Sheer exhaustion had to be a mitigating factor. That and the perceived relational imbalance you describe. No excuses, I get it, but they had to play their part. There were mitigating factors with my first wife as well that I believe set the stage for the duplicity-to-cognitive-dissonance progression. That and my former best friend was an ahole in disguise, but I digress.

Thank you again for sharing that part of your story to help dial in more understanding. Much appreciated.

OwningItNow

Everyone has to hold two opposing thoughts now, even though they do not want to: Cheating is unacceptable. I'm staying with someone who cheated on me. Many also have to hold the two opposing thoughts of Cheating is a dealbreaker; I'm staying with a cheater.

This drove me to distraction. I cannot tell you how many times I daydreamed about leaving in dramatic fashion....still do from time to time. This is where the "what ifs" and "if only's" had come to play. Your insight here highlights another need to gain understanding, not JUST for what she was thinking/feeling at the time, but the roll that CD played in me staying with her. This also relates to hikingout's comment here:

Especially ones who accepted poor behavior for years prior to the A. There is a need to understand why they self abandoned and put up with it to be with that person. That’s about changing present and future behavior.

Much truth lies here as well.

I feel that telling their spouse, "I never stopped loving you or wanting to stay married to you" is a form of this. They are saying and believing this for their own benefit, not yours. This is how they made hurting you ok in their minds--"They weren't betraying in their hearts, just their bodies. See! It's fine." If they admit that their behavior was unloving, they lose their ability to justify their behavior as acceptable. Even to themselves.

Man, you guys keep coming up with variations on this theme that I had NEVER thought of. A sedating effect by CD concerning the painful thoughts and feelings for the WS concerning the guilt of betrayal is one. I am going to have to wrap some neurons around that one but it rings true.

And many BS cannot stomach the idea of their WS not loving them, even with all evidence to the contrary.

Ouch. Painful, but again, how could it be otherwise? This jibes with hikingout were she says:

I am in the camp that the ws could not possibly love the bs at the time of the affair.

If you are an avoidant type (I am not at all, but my H is. I prefer controlling over denying as a means of unhealthy coping. Lol) if you are avoidant, cognitive dissonance is your buddy. It walks with you on the daily.

This too strikes home. My "winning formula/learned behavior" was minimizing and rug sweeping (FoO) due the sheer amount of trauma in my life so, your thought about BS entering into CD has disturbed me. I never thought about that when I started this thread, but again, it rings true and has made me a bit emotional tbh.....it has struck a chord. I need to process this thought more.

Thank you.

Edited to Add: OIN, I am more like your H and my current W is more like you....damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead.

sisoon

LOL - if we both spent $5 plus the cost of transport to the same place, we could share coffee and conversation. smile And we might possibly deepen our understanding of this part of life.

You bet, preferably where they have $5 drafts (if there is any such thing anymore).

For example, I got almost 24 hours of relief when my W said she was never going to leave me. Then I realized she was leaving me whenever she was with ow or on the phone with her or even thinking of her.

This too hit me hard. That CD would be an integral part of the BS perception. I have a LOT more to learn and explore it seems.

it still (11 years and counting) boggles my mind that my W bought a 'sort of engagement ring' for ow because our state didn't recognize same gender Ms. But that was going to change in 6 months - the bigamy law was never under discussion. How could she be engaged to one person while M to another?!

Sorry you faced that insanity Brother.

truthsetmefree

I don’t see much relevance in debating duplicity when it comes to affairs. Short of the WS who has a drunken ONS and comes home to immediately confess it, all affairs involve duplicity.....I see the bigger debate when it comes to cognitive dissonance

Exactly why I posted. I believe that almost ALL A's involve duplicity. What I struggled with in the past was cognitive dissonance in ANY degree, but I have changed that opinion. I now believe that it starts with duplicity and when continued, morphs/metastasizes into CD. I think it was hikingout who said that it becomes a subconscious response to the A and all A related behavior.

at the root of this is a poorly designed self-concept

As we discussed prior, I believe that a "poorly designed self-concept" can play its part both the with WS and BS.