SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm sorry but this is somewhat incorrect. It does not REMAIN uncomfortable permanently.

I also kind of disagree - I don’t think CD has to be uncomfortable. And I also know as a ws that it can be uncomfortable. I would break a boundary and cry and feel awful and then still go back for my ego kibbles.

Ok, now, here too is a new thought to me but it ties into the sedating quality of CD for both the WS and the BS. Call is what you will, sedating, numbing, obscuring (pain, guilt, shame, etc.), it CLEARLY greases the wheels of the progress of the A. The scary thing for me too is that much of this kind of talk is addiction verbiage which I guess is no shocker given what weve all heard, seen and read about A's being addictive. I just never thought of CD playing that kind of part in the A process. This would also connect with Oldwounds' observations about compartmentalizing enabled by CD.

I couldn’t have done R by living in CD or compartmentalization forever.

Yeh, sheer pain and misery pierced that for me, my aforementioned learned behaviors notwithstanding.

I have much more to learn.

Thank you all.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 10:58 AM, Monday, September 5th]

Thought I would return and redress the topic of this thread. I came here in search of a bit more clarity as to duplicity and cognitive dissonance and the role they play in the affair. I had struggled for years with the concept of CD and was entrenched in the "it is nothing but pure soulless duplicity" camp. After recent tragic events involving infidelity in the lives of people very close to me and the loss of one, it caused me to rethink/reexamine this concept once again and after reading the thoughts of posters on this thread and other fWSs and fBSs that have graciously shared their thoughts and experiences with me, I have come to a place in my understanding that includes both concepts. I do now believe that both come to play in the the progression of infidelity.

In addition to the above, I have been challenged, gently so, by some who have pointed out that I am still looking for closure for my decades old betrayal and I freely admit that this is true in part. I seek a greater measure of closure concerning important issues that may have played a part in that betrayal for which I will never be able to obtain from those who betrayed me as they have since passed on.

In my pursuit of answers, I have also been challenged by some related concepts on this thread that got my wheels turning such as the role that CD may play in the life of the BS and hikingout's

Especially ones who accepted poor behavior for years prior to the A. There is a need to understand why they self abandoned and put up with it to be with that person. That’s about changing present and future behavior.

All great and enlightening input.

Thank you all.

I HAD to return here to relate a quote from a BH that illustrates the transmitted cognitive dissonance that a poster here had mentioned. This from a BH, "So you see, when I’m posting on here and sound all together...I’m not. I'm screwed up so bad I can’t have a normal conversation with her two days in row. I am mad but I feel the need to defend her. I miss her but can’t stand seeing her. I love her but I can’t touch her. I honestly feel like I am splitting into two people."

This. Is. Exactly. It.

I had to put this somewhere.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:12 AM, Sunday, September 25th]

Just returning to post that Im still wrangling with this issue.

If any stumble upon this thread,I leave you with this passage from Invictus:

"In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud,

Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed.

So don't bow your head, don't settle for cheats, don't surrender your morality and no matter how painful it is, walk with your heads held high, because otherwise life isn't worth living."

~ William Ernest Henley

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:24 AM, Wednesday, November 23rd]

** Posting as a member **

Hmmm...I agree that one chooses to live by a moral code, but I also know that most (all?) people violate that code again and again. I like 'think straight, talk straight, act straight', for example, but I blow that by thinking extremely selfishly multiple times a day. I complain bitterly about dodgers named in 'The Dodger' song. I personally wouldn't murder any of the above, but I might not mourn them, even though I know the song says, 'and I'm a dodger, too.'

So how can any of us expect someone else to meet one's own standards if one doesn't meet them oneself?

And if one does, one will be pretty lonely, because no one is as moral as we tell ourselves to be. Remember, there are reports that Mother Theresa wasn't all that nice to her staff....

So you see, when I’m posting on here and sound all together...I’m not.

Of course. That applies to virtually everyone who looks like they're together.

I'm screwed up so bad I can’t have a normal conversation with her two days in row.

I think you have to accept that as part of being betrayed.

I am mad but I feel the need to defend her. I miss her but can’t stand seeing her. I love her but I can’t touch her. I honestly feel like I am splitting into two people.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds? IOW, if you're inconsistent with your WS, you're closer to being healthy than if you're consistent, until a lot if healing has been done.

*****

IOW, the rules we grow up with don't help much in dealing with infidelity

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:57 PM, Wednesday, November 23rd]

** Posting as a member **

Hmmm...I agree that one chooses to live by a moral code, but I also know that most (all?) people violate that code again and again. I like 'think straight, talk straight, act straight', for example, but I blow that by thinking extremely selfishly multiple times a day. I complain bitterly about dodgers named in 'The Dodger' song. I personally wouldn't murder any of the above, but I might not mourn them, even though I know the song says, 'and I'm a dodger, too.'

So how can any of us expect someone else to meet one's own standards if one doesn't meet them oneself?

And if one does, one will be pretty lonely, because no one is as moral as we tell ourselves to be. Remember, there are reports that Mother Theresa wasn't all that nice to her staff....

So you see, when I’m posting on here and sound all together...I’m not.

Of course. That applies to virtually everyone who looks like they're together.

I'm screwed up so bad I can’t have a normal conversation with her two days in row.

I think you have to accept that as part of being betrayed.

I am mad but I feel the need to defend her. I miss her but can’t stand seeing her. I love her but I can’t touch her. I honestly feel like I am splitting into two people.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds? IOW, if you're inconsistent with your WS, you're closer to being healthy than if you're consistent, until a lot if healing has been done.

*****

IOW, the rules we grow up with don't help much in dealing with infidelity

Hey sisoon, was the above meant for this thread? Trying to place your quotes.

Morality refers to your Henley quotation on 11/22 'don't surrender your moral code'. The other quotes are from the post of 9/24 - 'This from a BH....'

BTW, I'm not trying to argue you out of angst, just to offer an additional point from which to view issues and a point from which you may gain additional insight.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:09 PM, Friday, November 25th]

Morality refers to your Henley quotation on 11/22 'don't surrender your moral code'. The other quotes are from the post of 9/24 - 'This from a BH....'

BTW, I'm not trying to argue you out of angst, just to offer an additional point from which to view issues and a point from which you may gain additional insight.

Ah.....got it now. Thanks for the clarification.

For now....my angst continues. Not pointedly anymore, just working for a deeper understanding of this conundrum.

Keep coming back to this thread to dial in more clarity. Im like a dog with a bone at this point. I just read a couple of quotes from fWWs and thought Id post for feedback. One said:

"Maybe I am blind to it but I don't see how me staying that I always loved my husband is in any way a lack of humility. I won't minimize what I have done, I won't justify it anymore for the fact that I loved him. Compartmentalizing made me separate the love I felt from my husband from the lust I felt for teh OM. I separated my self in two different persons, the loving wife and the betrayer WS and I could just change from one to another like someone changes clothes... what I need to destroy now is the barrier between the two characters, I was both, the loving wife and the betrayer, both were me, one only person. To stop the compartmentalization I should begin to accept who I was but not only the betrayer ... also the loving mother and wife. I need to see them together and understand how I could be both... It will be a lot of work till I get there... I think I am far from understanding it.., But I am trying."

Another said:

"I completely understand loving your husband and children while having your affair...and I too was bashed for saying it a long time ago. So please consider my perspective.

I sincerely loved my husband and children...and I never stopped loving them. HOWEVER....I allowed myself to LOVE ME MORE than I did them. I moved my priorities from loving them the most...to loving me most.

As a wife and a mother...we place the needs of our family before our own....and even though during an affair we still take care of their needs....we become focused on our selves instead of focusing on them.

If this were not true...we would never have allowed ourselves to let the affair happen.

This is why I say...we changed....we became someone we don't know...and someone our spouse does not know.

Our spouses now look at us differently...because they never knew this person we became even existed.

This is why we are broken. This is why we need to figure out how we allowed this person to emerge and how we prevent it from ever happening again. This is what we will spend the rest of our lives working on.

What flaw exists within us that we as devoted wives and mothers became slvts? What happened to our moral fiber that we willingly went to bed with another man....not caring about the consequences....

How could we willingly sacrifice our families for a few minutes of "excitement".

Yes...we always loved our beautiful families...but we loved ourselves more and were willing to lose everything to make ourselves feel better."

Thoughts?

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 6:55 PM, Monday, December 5th]

I think those are two great quotes that represent what a lot of WWs have articulated here over the years. I relate to them in that I see myself compartmentalizing things between work and homelife to a degree. Or sometimes even between my relationship with one friend vs another.

I am wondering if the compartmentalizer affair is potentially easier to R with, all else being equal? Because this situation means that the cheating spouse is not dissing the other spouse actively when they speak to others, ignoring them directly when at home, treating them negatively when together.... all behaviors which make it harder to recover from in my mind. I think it would be easier to R in this situation vs. The affair where the wayward is not able to separate the two relationships so they start to blame the BS in order to rationalize their behavior. Or they can't share the love toward two people so they get negative with the spouse. There is a thread active right now where the OP has photographic evidence of this dynamic, as if the holiday photographs taken of the BS & WS when together during the affair are a window into the mind and heart of the WS due to the affair itself.

And I do love the quotes describing they loved themselves more during the affair than anyone else. BS and AP included. Also, the need to see both sides of themselves. I relate to that two... I am good and I am a sinner, both at the same time.

The first is a great statement of the problem in understanding human beings. How can we be both loving and unloving simultaneously? How does one change from betrayer to good partner, knowing that the betrayer is always going to be part of one's makeup? Etc., etc., etc.

I'll take issue with the 2nd - I don't think cheaters love themselves; rather, I think cheaters give themselves permission to over-indulge themselves. That is, something goes on in the cheater's mind that allows them to risk their future for the few minutes of excitement.

I also think that a large number of WSes, especially KISAs, choose the future pain of saying 'yes' to infidelity over the immediate pain of saying 'no'. It's like an over-indulgent grandparent and a young grandchild - give 'em whatever they want in the moment to shut them up, and let the parents deal with the aftermath.

*****

How about 'cognitive dissonance AND duplicity'?

My W thought she was saving her client's life, because the client threatened to kill herself if W didn't 'help' her sexually. (No need to go into the ways this was bad thinking.) So at one level she was good with the sex. OTOH, she couldn't eat or sleep or do much of anything except attend to the A. We could call that 'pre-cognitive dissonance' - she wasn't aware of it, but her body was.

W was definitely in cognitive dissonance, because she claimed to be honest, but they kept their A secret and knew they needed to share it to be honest with themselves and their BSes.

At the same time, she had to lie to me to keep the A going. That's duplicity.

So it's both, not one or the other, at least in my case.

Trdd, you said:

I think those are two great quotes that represent what a lot of WWs have articulated here over the years. I relate to them in that I see myself compartmentalizing things between work and homelife to a degree. Or sometimes even between my relationship with one friend vs another.

Do you equate compartmentalizing with cognative dissonance?

sisoon, you said:

The first is a great statement of the problem in understanding human beings. How can we be both loving and unloving simultaneously? How does one change from betrayer to good partner, knowing that the betrayer is always going to be part of one's makeup? Etc., etc., etc.

Exactly that. This is the conundrum. How do you love yet betray? How do you love while doing the most unloving thing this side of murder? Do you believe the answer is cognitive dissonance?

You also said:

How about 'cognitive dissonance AND duplicity'?

I believe that this is as close to the truth as I may ever get.

You also said:

I'll take issue with the 2nd - I don't think cheaters love themselves; rather, I think cheaters give themselves permission to over-indulge themselves. That is, something goes on in the cheater's mind that allows them to risk their future for the few minutes of excitement.

Depends on how the WS defines love, right? What if they equate self love with self indulgence? And if that is the case, it would explain a lot concerning the disparity between what the BS and the WS means by "love". I have long suspected that there was a vast difference in how both actually defined "love", maybe from the very beginning of the marriage, but it was never discussed/explored until the affair was revealed.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 1:52 AM, Monday, December 5th]

Just redefine the word love as needed...and keep redefining as necessary.

At the end of the day a risk reward calculation is made and the potential reward for the experience is worth the risk of losing what they have. They simply make a trade.

In some cases with an exit in mind...in which case nothing really to lose other than reputation. Others are cake-eating and believe they will not get caught (many don't get caught...the great majority of what we hear has selection bias) and if they do they belive they can just mea culpa and do some penance....win/win (LT spouses often have their BS measured well...high likelihood of forgiveness or limited options to leave...kids etc..). After all the exciting experience can never be taken away.

I do think cognitive dissonance is tied to compartmentalization, at least in affairs.

As far as the references to self love, there are 2 core interpretations I see with that term. One is the healthy self love where you respect yourself and see yourself as a valuable person. The other is the spiritual condition of loving yourself more than you love others, placing yourself, your needs and desires before those of other people, even those close to you. I believe the wayward you quoted was referencing the latter aspect.

Trdd- you maybe right about the self love thing.

What I have settled on is when people do not love themselves it creates a hole they try to fill by getting it from others.

Behavior can be overly selfless or overly selfish prio to the affair.

I was in the first camp, I gave too much so a lot of my justifications to avoid the CD surrounded entitlement. I felt entitled to make myself happy under any means possible because no one appreciated my over doing.

When I look back all that really happened is I had lots of unstated and unrealistic expectations that I balled into the corner of my mind in the form of resentments.

An overly selfish person is still doing the same thing, just with different methods and behaviors.

Where I agree with you is in an affair there are so many narcissistic tendencies that is exactly what happens - we convince ourselves that we are loving ourselves somehow and fuel that with the entitlement to do so. In reality an affair is an act of self destruction that takes us further into depths of despair eventually. No different than any other self destructive behavior such as gambling, drugs, alcoholism, overeating, or any other bad coping behavior. All of those are tied to trying to fill a hole from not being whole ourselves.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:54 PM, Monday, December 5th]

Just want to say ya'll are great to pitch in (again) with your views and helping me see and understand different facets of this issue/topic.

I guess one of my struggles with the whole compartmentalizing v cognitive dissonance idea is that there must be one incredible firewall built up in someone's psyche to keep the impending destruction, hurt and inevitable upheaval at bay while conducting an affair, loving behavior with BS all the while or no.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 9:38 PM, Monday, December 5th]

Thanks again hikingout. You said:

Where I agree with you is in an affair there are so many narcissistic tendencies that is exactly what happens - we convince ourselves that we are loving ourselves somehow and fuel that with the entitlement to do so. In reality an affair is an act of self destruction that takes us further into depths of despair eventually. No different than any other self destructive behavior such as gambling, drugs, alcoholism, overeating, or any other bad coping behavior. All of those are tied to trying to fill a hole from not being whole ourselves.

I agree with this. No matter the other extenuating circumstances, extreme self involvement is part and parcel of the wayward mindset.

Interesting too that you use gambling, drug, alcohol, and overeating addictions as analogous examples. The reason I point that out is all of the information now available as to how these behaviors affect the limbic system. Basically it circumvents the rational center and goes right to the pleasure center of the brain. The more the behavior is acted out, the more reinforced the neural pathway and the behavior becomes ensconsed.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 10:44 PM, Tuesday, December 6th]

I think we are probably aligned Hikingout. And if we aren't then you're probably more correct than I am, lol. I love your introspection.

Loving self more than others is destructive by it's very nature because it really doesn't allow us to love others as we should. To be putting ourselves first in most things is to be broken or upside down.

It sounds like you grew resentful of giving so frequently and then compensated for that in a harmful, out of control way. Not the same dynamic as someone who is rooted in unhealthy self love but it got you to a similar place, unfortunately.

Trdd- oh I do think we are in the same page. It was more I was trying to expand the thought.

For me, I ended up in the same place as you say because the people pleasing was selfish. I was doing it to get something… love, appreciation, a right to be in the marriage, to be seen a certain way, etc. My over-giving was transactional because it came with expectations of my husband.

People who cheat are being selfish when they do so but the selfish behavior is not an aberration even in a ws who appeared selfless. I also think you would find a large percentage of the time that people pleasers are very much trying to get something and it’s manipulative. Often you will find a PP to also be passive aggressive.

The selfishness all comes from that lack of self love that creates a void. The cheating comes when it’s combined with a lack of integrity and presence of opportunity. That lack of integrity is where The cognitive dissonance comes in. "‘I know this to be wrong, BUT…." There is a lot of convincing yourself you are not the villain of the story.

As for what Dobletraicion is saying - that it’s often compared to other bad coping - things like gambling, drugs, or even shoplifting - I think most affairs that have emotional components tend to be obsessive if not an addiction.

I don’t blame my affair on the addiction. When it started it was a series of bad decisions that should not have been made. The addiction could not have formed had that not happened. I am just saying that at some point there was an addiction to the happy chemicals flooding my brain.

In the context of cognitive dissonance you just keep rationalizing increasingly erratic behavior because that high becomes the focus of about every waking second of your life. I literally could not think about anything else.

It had nothing to do with the AP being so great (he wasn’t). It had to do with the narrative in my head that was created to deal with knowing what I was doing was very wrong. At some point it becomes like self-brainwashing. Ap good. Spouse bad. After all I couldn’t be the villain of my own story, yet the addiction kept the affair going. So the list of lies I told myself grew and grew because I couldn’t stop nor did I want to.

I see proof of what I am saying all over the posts on this site:
-the person the was was having an affair with made no sense. Inappropriate choice for whatever reason. Mine was decades older than me and misogynistic, something I would never have tolerated in a regular relationship
-we convince ourselves of bad narratives about our spouse
-we often have trouble going NC as if our self control has completely left the building
-we have these strange things that when they are said aloud after dday we know we have been lying to ourselves. Things like "you would like him" or "they are a good person" " ap is my soul mate" It’s all false justification.

I became utterly unrecognizable to even myself.

Looking back on it today it was the most moronic, idiotic, humiliating, desperate, disgusting, destructive experience of my life. I can’t fathom that I was so callous or so reverted back to an immature time of my life.

I can see how it started, I understand why I did it, and clearly made those decisions willingly. I just didn’t go in knowing where it would take me or who I would become in the process. How long it would take to heal and grow from it and the lasting impact it would have on our lives.

Duplicity was always there, but the mental gymnastics surrounding the cognitive dissonance created a lot of lying to myself that I found difficult to unwind in the aftermath because I believed all of it. This disconnect from reality was also devastating to my husband and derailed our R efforts for a very long time.

So in the end if it was just duplicity on it’s own I could have started immediately making sense, being empathetic, working to rebuild trust from day 1. The CD made that impossible for months because you have to be honest with yourself to be so for others. For a while he heard my illogical, broken way of thinking that would not have existed if it was duplicity only.

That's a beautiful post for explaining the dynamic in many affairs.

And I think acknowledging that bad decisions got you to the point of the dopamine rush is an important one for people to hear. That it wasn't the other way around. Decisions and poor boundaries put people on the proverbial slippery slope and then if the addictive rush occurs, it sounds like it can be an overwhelming sense of being pulled down the slope.

All this should be discussed in pre-marriage classes. I wonder if it would help any?