SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How did you find out? That can be very relevant.

Look – the time from infidelity to the time of discovery isn’t really relevant in determining how we – the betrayed spouse – experience our d-day. It’s pure pain for us if we walk in on them or if we discover it 10 years later. It’s the "same" pain and the same work, same anguish and same end-of-the-world experience.
For her – your wife – she has had all this time to accept what she did, justify it, and (hopefully) work out why it won’t happen again. Or how she got away with it or whatever. For HER the event was all those years ago – for YOU it’s NOW.

It’s basic human instinct to minimize and/or justify wrong or bad actions. We see it all the time. Cop stops you for speeding and you explain how everyone is driving at that speed, or how you have an important meeting. You hear thieves explain how they had to steal to feed their families. You hear murderers explain how the victim insulted their families or whatever. Rapist explain how she really wanted it rough. We do it ourselves when we justify having "only the teeny-weeny slice of cake" when we are on a diet. Your wife did that at the grandest scale with her affair. That needs time to break down.

I think you two can benefit from a good MC. Not to deal with the infidelity per se although that is a very important factor. Rather to help you two decide if your marriage is something you two want to save. That would/should allow you to outline what you are dissatisfied with. That in turn allows you a forum to address the infidelity and that she needs to show you empathy in your recovery.
Be careful to canvas MC’s. Ask them if they see infidelity as a symptom of faults in the individual or faults in the marriage. If the later – look for another one.

Any history of cheating?

A lot of history of cheating. She cheated on every single guy including me. This should have been My red flag I guess.

I cheated in the past, and she knows, but I have never cheated on her.

How I found out was from her sisters exboyfriend. They got into a huge fight, and he threw the skeleton out of the closet.
I sat on that message for a lot longer than I should have, before I finally confronted her about it. I wanted to be calm, and reasonable. Which is difficult to do in any type of this situation.

We talked a lot last night, and she says she feels remorseful, but the problem I’m having is the first time hearing it, the story was different, she claimed she was black out drunk. She doesn’t remember. Then she finally admitted that she definitely wanted it. So in full circle, I still haven’t received honesty, and I think if I continue prying I may get more. But is it worth it? Is it productive? Probably not.

I’ve been thinking about sleeping with someone else, just to make these feelings go away. If I do, should I tell her? What do other people do sometimes?

Everyone seems to come in agreement that I should leave her, and I’ll be honest, I’m not in my right mindset to make a decision either way. Is forgiveness an option? Are there others that have stayed together?
Should I be a complete dick, and tell her what I want out of the relationship or else? Am I justified in being extremely firm with this?

I’m sorry for all the questions, my mind just hasn’t stopped or have been still since I found out. I’m doing everything I can to keep my shit together, and I’m always a calm collected person. A person that always has the answers, with well thought out decisions.

Are you married?

We are not married. I have held off this time to be sure that she qualified for marriage. I’ve been married before, and understand the consequences of doing so before you really know someone.
I am now living my nightmare.

No, you shouldn’t sleep with someone else "to get it off your mind". I don’t have to tell you that that is ridiculous and destructive. You know it is. I won’t even go into the multitude of reasons why.

You JFO’d. It’s been abundantly explained why you’re feeling the way that you currently are. Your feelings are universally typical-natural, and quite understandable, to us, but not the uninitiated. Those who never experienced infidelity, can’t possibly understand what we experience.

So don’t expect much understanding and support from family, friends, counselors and, especially, your WP.

She’s trying to frame this as an isolated incident, a one-off, that happened only as a consequence of an impaired mental state.

You’re seeing this as a possible pattern of repeated behavior and wayward thinking-mentality that could, will, eventually repeat itself in the future when causative factors and opportunity again come into alignment.

You’re coming up on the seven year itch and you’re wondering if you’re WP is a ticking cheating time bomb with a latent, undiagnosed, untreated predisposition to cheat laying in dormancy.

The safe logical pragmatic play would be to cut and run. No sunken cost fallacy. No having to play marriage cop. No sleepless nights. No mind movies. No waiting for the other shoe to to drop. No dragging her, and you, through the rigors of Reconciliation. No lingering resentments. No taint on your beautiful love story.

However, you love her. And that trumps all logic and practicality. All logic except for the fact, that crazy fact, that humans are capable of change given the right circumstances.

The circumstances she requires for possible change are:

-She needs to chase down the causative factors of her long history of cheating through intense therapy.

-She must sincerely want to do this. She must enthusiastically go to counseling.

-She has to enthusiastically educate herself as to what you’re experiencing, empathize and react appropriately.

-When she makes mistakes, she has to objectively analyze her mistakes, make changes, and show a continuous trajectory of improvement.

-And, she has to initiate and sustain this effort with an almost selfless devotion. As if the love of her life is dependent upon it.

If you suspect that she is not up to this task, if she lacks the devotion, if you’re already seeing signs that she is not capable of sustaining this effort past the hype of the I Just Got Caught phase, then you know what you must do.

Sitting around waiting for the other shoe to drop, just waiting for the next time because no real reconciliation, no definitive mitigation was completed, is no way to live.

Because you’ve kicked this can down the road for seven years, because no one as taken any definitive measures to fix her, no building of trust, you have one foot in the relationship and one foot out. You’re failing to fully and intimately commit to her and she can feel it. Neither of you feel like you’re part of something real, authentic and beautiful. Your lack of definitive action is setting the stage for a guaranteed repeat if it hasn’t already happened-is happening.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 8:30 PM, Wednesday, May 11th]

and she says she feels remorseful

Well there you have it. It must be true.

Except everything you described is almost the exact opposite of the definition. It's about the actions, not the words. And the ABSOLUTE WORST thing that she can continue to do is to lie. This is where we hammer the message that you can't control the actions of another. If she finds remorse, and wants to change, she'll make the effort. Keeping her record at a perfect 100% for cheating on all her partners is NOT the way to make wholesale changes.

What is cheating on her going to do to improve your relationship? Is it going to make you a better person overall? Isn't that what we are supposed to do in life? Learn from our mistakes so we can be better people? My suggestion would be to show her the opposite of this thought process. Show her that you do not tolerate cheating anymore in your life.

You shouldn’t revenge cheat. It certainly doesn’t sound like your getting the truth. Please do not ever marry this woman, no matter what.

You can t have a happy relationship moving forward if you simply rugsweep this and move on. I would firmly tell her that you love her but will not be continue to be treated so poorly:
1. Lied to for 7 years
2. Family snd friends knew about the A behind your back
3. She’s still lying now
4. She doesn’t sound remorseful at all

My guess is that she thinks is she’s a catch snd that you’ll simply let all of this go. My friend, you’re the catch not her.

I would lay out 1-4 above snd tell her your conditions that you’ll consider staying with her:
1. Full timeline verified by a poly. Poly needs to include questions not only about the ONS but also if she’s ever cheated in addition
2. She needs to apologize to you in front of all of the family and friends who she told about the A and apologize to them as well for putting them in this situation. In the apology she needs to be specific about how she cheated - no generalizations
3. She needs to go to IC and needs to make you aware of her process in fixing herself wrt her defects that allowed her to cheat
4. She needs to express to you sincerely that she wants to remain with you, assuming she agrees to the above.

Then watch her actions. Assuming she does all of the above, but is just giving it lip all service until you let it go, then you need to walk.

You need to be firm. It sounds like you have given her the position of having the upper hand in this relationship, but that ends now. If you’re a "nice guy" than that needs to end. I recommend reading "no more mr nice guy."

With all of this, and you being firm yet non confrontational, you need to have the conviction to walk away. If you don’t, then all of this advice is worthless and she will continue to treat you as she is now. And, she needs to believe that you’re serious about walking.

A lot of history of cheating. She cheated on every single guy including me. This should have been My red flag I guess.

I cheated in the past, and she knows, but I have never cheated on her.

Don’t you see the contradiction in thought here: She cheated in the past, therefore I should have expected her to cheat. I cheated in the past therefore I am not capable of cheating now.

Everyone seems to come in agreement that I should leave her,

No – a lot of posters are suggesting what you might need to move on. That "move on" could be by ending this relationship, or it could be by trying to save it. It’s totally your call. IMHO our role is to guide you out of infidelity, but it’s dependent on what YOU want and what your wife offers and does whether that’s through divorce or reconciliation.

Personally I don’t see anything different in your wife at the moment than most WS show. Generally the initial remorse is more based on being caught. With the work of R it becomes more based on the actions of infidelity rather than the consequences of infidelity.

I do strongly suggest one thing though:

Research divorce and how it might impact you financially and custody.

I always suggest this even if people want to reconcile. It’s imperative to realize that the threat to the relationship is so great it CAN lead to divorce, and therefore it makes sense to have a clear picture of the procedure and the process.

You make a couple of statements regarding assets and possible custody that I question.

1)That your child together has three half-siblings will NOT be to your advantage in custody and will probably weigh heavier in her favor. A judge seeks to disrupt the life of the child as little as possible, and might see the "stability" of remaining with three siblings as an advantage. Maybe – maybe not, but I strongly urge you to research that rather than decide to divorce thinking full custody is a foregone conclusion.

2)That because things are in your name they are your property. This varies state-by-state and country-by-country, but generally anything acquired during the marriage is joint property unless there is a clear contract to the contrary. Like I say: This varied between states but I seriously doubt you have the ability to move her and the three children out of their home simply because your name is on the deed. It’s a process and it’s part of the divorce.

Not pointing these things out to prevent you from divorcing. D is a GREAT path out of infidelity. But base your decisions on reality rather than fantasy.

[This message edited by Bigger at 11:58 AM, Thursday, May 12th]

The circumstances she requires for possible change are:

-She needs to chase down the causative factors of her long history of cheating through intense therapy.

-She must sincerely want to do this. She must enthusiastically go to counseling.

-She has to enthusiastically educate herself as to what you’re experiencing, empathize and react appropriately.

-When she makes mistakes, she has to objectively analyze her mistakes, make changes, and show a continuous trajectory of improvement.

-And, she has to initiate and sustain this effort with an almost selfless devotion. As if the love of her life is dependent upon it.

If you suspect that she is not up to this task, if she lacks the devotion, if you’re already seeing signs that she is not capable of sustaining this effort past the hype of the I Just Got Caught phase, then you know what you must do.

I do agree we need to go over every situation that she cheated. I don’t really want to because she will end up crying about it, and may say that’s all I’m trying to do is make her cry. Doesn’t my feelings count? Are my feelings more important?

She was willing to go to counseling, and we were doing better for a little while, but the mind movies wouldn’t stop playing, and it really took a toll on me. Still is. Is it because I’m having difficulty letting go of my anger? Normal probably, but rug sweeping isn’t the solution, and she hates talking about anything. Way I see it, is if she’s not willing to talk about things, then why bother to produce the effort to move forward?

You’re right about the sustaining effort past the I got caught phase. This is where we are now, and things are going backwards, and I’m getting some of the blame by "dragging this on"
Last I checked this actually is about me, and how terrible fucked up situation this really is, and I am literally trying to better myself, and have happiness again.

Everyone that posted I shouldn’t sleep with anyone else, I will not deny this is difficult to not to do. I know it’s wrong, and it does nothing productive towards the relationship. It does say I have one foot out the door, and one in.
Sleeping with someone else changes the relationship parameters a lot. Devalues making love, in comparison to just sex. Which is what a ONS essentially is. It lacks emotion. It disgusts me.
I have never had a ONS. I have always had some sort of relationship, even if it was short, and bonded with that person before. Is this the norm? Or ONS more common?

If I had a ONS, should I would I be expected to be forgiven?
I’m not sure. My brain has difficulty having sex with someone just to have sex with them. This is also probably why it’s so difficult to understand the clouded judgement, of alcohol and excess. I have always been able to know who I am, who I am with, and what I am doing. I guess I haven’t drank enough?

If you’re a "nice guy" than that needs to end. I recommend reading "no more mr nice guy."

With all of this, and you being firm yet non confrontational, you need to have the conviction to walk away. If you don’t, then all of this advice is worthless and she will continue to treat you as she is now. And, she needs to believe that you’re serious about walking.

I consider myself probably a lot more laid back than most people. Where can I find this no more mr nice guy subject, and how far should I can I take this?

If you want to sleep with someone else, with a willing participant, you should first break up with your partner.

Do t become a cheater just because your girlfriend is. Be true to yourself. You can tell her you feel you need to see other people. That until you do, you won’t be able to stop perseverating on the fact she cheated on you and said what she said.

Tell her you make no promises of what the future holds for the two of you, but that her actions and words broke your heart and you need to go off on your own to heal it in the best way you can. Whether that includes IC, reading, dating, unattached sex, or a relationship with someone new, you can’t say.

But it’s important to be honest about it and not hide anything.

Good luck.

No More Mr Nice Guy is a book and it’s sold on Amazon.

A must read for you I think.

She never told me, I had to find out from her sisters ex.

We are still sleeping and having sex together. I would like to take a break from intimacy, and I’m not going to sleep around. I think everyone is right that it’s a terrible idea, and everyone I’ve asked for support from has mentioned the same thing. But it’s seriously a real problem to not want to. I think mostly because I feel that she disconnected from me, therefore I should break that connection in return. Make sense?
I want to bring back the emotional connection we had, if that’s a possibility.
Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

Her story changed again today, the way she worded it was "I didn’t want him"I think that’s really just downplaying the situation and not showing remorse, or are those two different things?
I think I will be discussing this when I go home.

I definitely need to put down some ground rules. For terms of the relationship, moving forward. Especially if she wants me to stay. She will have to be more understanding with a few things.

If you're not married because you wanted to make sure she was marriage material, then you already have the answer to that question. She's not. So why continue?

I think your relationship needs a Master Reset.

It seems like it got started on the wrong foot with mutual cheating, trust issues and half measures. It got started on the wrong foot and you’re both still out of step.

Failure to address and reconcile past history, failure to address current issues, failure to build trust and emotional intimacy, failure to establish mutual boundaries and expectations, failure to fully commit to the relationship and it’s future.

Now neither of you take this relationship seriously. You’ve both cheated and are poised to cheat again.

The only thing legit in this relationship is your child. A child who is currently being forced to reside in a limbo toxic family environment.

Your relationship is seriously corrupted.
I would either do a Master Reset of this relationship back to factory settings, or divorce and start fresh. You can’t continue like this. Bad for you two, especially bad for the kid(s).

Instead of "sitting her down and laying out ground rules", you both should sit down and start with a very honest and humble discussion of your mutual contributions to the current state of dysfunction. And then, mutually decide where you want to go from here. Then, build a rational and comprehensive plan, with the aid of lawyers or counselors, and execute that plan in earnest.

Get out of limbo and you’ll get out of infidelity.

RB,

Gently, I think you may have misread some of ISAR's story. He has said that he has cheated in the past but never in *this* relationship. I see that as someone who realizes they're not perfect and owns their faults. She has cheated in every relationship, including this one.

Edit: He only mentioned it once. Removed statement for saying it more than once.

[This message edited by UnderARock at 2:29 AM, Friday, May 13th]

But it’s seriously a real problem to not want to. I think mostly because I feel that she disconnected from me, therefore I should break that connection in return. Make sense?
I want to bring back the emotional connection we had, if that’s a possibility.
Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

Do you like having a character trait of being a cheater? Of someone who only believes in monogamy.....unless certain situations arise?

They are call 'revenge affairs' for a reason. Often these revenge affairs are only ONSs. They are done to 'level the playing field'. Except it NEVER works. It only further deteriorates the current relationship. You can redo a room in your house with some paint and new furniture. You could also use a flamethrower. The end result will be a vastly different room, but at what cost?

You have to focus on yourself. If you are looking to attempt to salvage the relationship, she needs to make deep changes, and you need to process the betrayal, and ask yourself if you are willing to recommit and become vulnerable again. I can tell you that so far, she is no where near remorseful, let alone reconcilable material. Bigger mentioned that he sees your partner like many cheaters who are first caught---some regret, some re-writing of your relationship, and a lot of attempted rug sweeping. I agree with this. What we don't have is much data on the success rates of poor partners becoming good partners. That is information that we will probably never have around here, but we DO KNOW what is minimally needed from a wayward to have a fair chance at becoming a good partner. Stick around and read a bunch of stories, and you will get the idea.

We also have a good idea of what it takes from the BETRAYED partner to have a good shot at reconciliation. What you will basically need are (1) firm boundaries, (2) the ability to recommit without one foot out the door, (3) your ability to walk away from the relationship if need be, and (4) a good amount of grace. These are the minimums. Right now, neither of you would be considered a 'good' partner for reconciliation, and that is no slight at you. In my opinion, no newly betrayed is a good reconciliation candidate until they process the entirety of the betrayal. And as for her, right now, the only real positives is that she says she wants to make it work, and she hasn't left yet. Otherwise, she hasn't even started the hard work in front of her.....something that should be against your boundaries.

Most advice on affairs and ONS is not to tell your betrayed partner. Ever. Now at SI we believe that's bad advice. That does not change the fact that if she searched for what do that's what she would find first. Hell, even some counselors tell people that. That does not excuse her lying or mean you should R but it is context for why some people lie about a ONS.

Do you love her? If she dealt with this properly, with remorse and healing, would you want to stay? If you lean at all toward R then get a copy of "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" for her to read and see if she responds positively to it. See if she changes how she acts toward you and discussing the ONS. She wants to rugsweep but many people want that. She needs some education on just how much pain for you comes with her betrayal and how she can help you heal.

Legally and D wise, it's probably really good that you're not married but you want to check with a lawyer about common law marriage rules in your state as well as custody norms with your situation (4 siblings, 1 yours). Don't make assumptions about what would happen, learn what does happen most often.

I do think it sounds like she is still lying about that night. What did you mean by you felt like she was texting you, planning the ONS for a time when you would not catch her? What did you mean by the idea you have felt she had waved this in your face, subtly, because you did not know?

The fact that she stayed facebook friends with this guy says a lot about her initial level of remorse for what happened. How does she explain that?

There is a truism often used here, "don't listen to what they say. Look at what they do". Your WS has by her actions shown you very clearly who and what she is. Now you need to see what she does to try to fix herself.

From what you have described, so far her efforts fall far short of the minimum required to fix the havoc she has visited on you and your relationship. Furthermore, she seems to be trying to sweep this all under the carpet. Believe me this will not work for you. At some time in the future, be it days, weeks or years, it will all come back to the surface. There are many BS's and stories here that support this.

You mentioned that there are three other children involved (I assume they are hers) and that she would be homeless if you were to end the relationship. Could these be the reasons why she says she wants to stay with you? The fact that you provide for her and her children?

Hope you are able to find the strength, healing and peace you seek.

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