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Stop MC. It's worthless. She needs IC.

And if they still work together she's still in the A. You say you want to stay with her, but you also want her income there. Let me ask, is having her income worth it if she's still in the A, bc as long as they work together, they're still in the A (at least emotionally)

[This message edited by GoldenR at 4:01 AM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

Yeah. You will hear a lot of WWs don't get the message about how they have to fix this until they are either served or an ultimatum into getting the kids DNA tested and getting themselves STD tested.

Then it becomes real.

They can't cry their way out of this situation. It sounds like that is your wife's go to. Mine did that at first too. They have to strap up and do some hard work.

Hello Everyone,

I have read everything and I will respond to some of the the points made and I have questions to ask.

We all work for a really big place with loads of buildings and departments. My WW and the OM can very easily be NC here as they work in different buildings and have no reason to ever come into contact with each other in anyway. I have full access to all of my wife's accounts now and it won't be very hard for me to keep tabs on her.

She has started IC right away and has been in it for two weeks now and I and she know that that is the most important thing.

The income for us isn't a huge deal as we would still be comfortable on just my salary.

She was STD tested right away.

As for R too early you may all be right. I didn't know about any of this when I decided that we would try to save the marriage.

I will say that saving the marriage is super important to me I can't imagine my life without her. Which I am sure is the feeling everyone has.

I will be starting IC for myself soon and I hope it helps in whatever way it is supposed to. I don't really know what my take away is from that. How to cope?

I know that no marriage is perfect and I know I haven't been perfect. (I know I didn't deserve to be cheated on). As for the MC being too early. I didn't again know about a timeline for these things when I booked it. The first one is more of a diagnostic session I think so we will see how it goes. Maybe we put off MC for awhile after we have both been in IC for awhile.

As for the IC me and my wife have decided that it will likely be a ongoing part for us even far into the future.

I am hoping to move past this and eventually be a success story on here.

I thank everyone for the messages and will be responding with updates when I can. I have a pretty busy workday ahead of me so it may not be until tomorrow.

What was the nature of their relationship.

Emotional? Did they exchange I love Yous? Have you read their communication? Did they go on dates? Even small ones?

Physical? Did they sext? Did they exchange nude pics or videos? Kiss? Touch? Under clothes? Engage in intercourse?

Has your WW provided you w a complete timeline with each interaction described fully? What was said? Who initiated? Who touched whom where? What she was feeling? What she was thinking?

These are all important questions you need answered in order to understand what you are trying to recover from.

You will be hard-pressed to find a single poster here that can say that reconciling with the OM still in the picture is easy.

Easy isn’t the correct word. Nothing about reconciling is easy. If we were to compare reconciliation to something it might be a marathon race. Only you aren’t really in form or prepared or equipped to run the race but have to learn and cope as you go. Having the OM near is like deciding that you have to run that race while pushing a grand piano in front of you while wearing armor.

What makes your situation extra complex is that OM and both of you all work at the same place…

Look… Let’s just give ourselves that your wife has no intention of being with the OM again. But having him around… It’s a constant reminder. For you seeing him laugh, thinking he’s glancing at you, thinking he’s glancing at her, when one or both of you need to work near him or with him or in the same area as him. When you are eating lunch and he enters the room… It’s all triggers and reminders and it’s a constant scratching at the wound that makes it heal so much slower.

This in turn creates resentment and frustration. Both of which can/could/might erode your WW determination to be focused at the marriage and stay away from that great listened who was so caring and understanding and all that…

Short story: Years ago I managed a guy who had a workplace affair. The OW was actually a friend of mine (although I didn’t know of the affair until it all blew up). When the guy’s wife found out they decided to reconcile and he ended the affair. I know for a fact that BOTH the OW and WH respected that the affair was over. Since this was affecting the guys performance I monitored him. About half a year later the OW left for another job. A couple of months later the guy shared with me that despite him being 100% committed to his marriage and the affair being totally over the HEALING didn’t start until his wife knew they weren’t working together. For all that time the betrayed wife had concerns, despite his best efforts and his total 100% commitment.

I know it doesn’t really make logical sense. If your WW and the OM decided to take the affair deep they could. Even if your wife changed jobs or OM relocated or whatever. But it’s just that removing the temptation and the trigger… it makes running that marathon slightly easier. Or less hard.

What is their work-relationship?

Is he a manager or supervisor?

Is he higher level than she is?

Does the company have some clear policy on personal relationships?

How big a factor is the job or the work culture in the affair?

Finally: People change jobs all the time. Changing families… that’s completely different.

I am hoping to move past this and eventually be a success story on here.

One of the first rules here for a BH is to let go of the outcome. We view "success" as finding your heart's truth, no matter whether that is R or D.

If there is one thing that your thread reeks of, it's a willful effort to drive the outcome at all costs, including your heart's truth. I also wish you success, albeit not the kind of success you may currently envision.

The 180 is strongly recommended not as a weapon to punish your WW, but as a tool to give yourself some psychic space. As Bigger mentioned, the reality you contemplate is one where your WW will go to work every day with the AP. As you note, it's a large campus, lots of nooks and crannies for them to sneak off to. They can easily use work phones to communicate, leaving personal cell phones in kosher places they're supposed to be. Can you live a life being a marriage cop?

We all work for a really big place with loads of buildings and departments. My WW and the OM can very easily be NC here as they work in different buildings and have no reason to ever come into contact with each other in anyway. I have full access to all of my wife's accounts now and it won't be very hard for me to keep tabs on her.

If OM and WW don’t interact at work, and if the place is so big and they can totally avoid each other then how did it start? Why did they meet? Why was THAT interaction? He/She hardly just selected a random member on Teams.

The size of the workplace works both ways.

My questions about their job-levels is really relevant. If he is in any way a superior or manager his accountability regarding your wife is so much more than two people of same or equal standing. You state this is his second affair… Well… maybe it’s time someone stood up so there won’t be a third…

She was STD tested right away.

So she has confessed it was physical? Don't know of any EA's that lead to STDs... You haven’t stated so yet. The more info we have the better advice we can offer. Have you seen the STD results or is this still only info from your wife? You would be surprised how common it is for a WS to come home from a doctors appointment and tell you the STD went fine, only to learn later that no test was done. Plus final results take some days.

I will say that saving the marriage is super important to me I can't imagine my life without her. Which I am sure is the feeling everyone has.

I am considered pro-reconciliation on this site and all the advice I have given on your thread is aimed at helping you save your marriage.

But…

If your biggest fear is losing your wife… If you could think nothing worse than her leaving…

Then simply allow her to have her affairs.

Allow her to be with OM or the next OM or whatever.

After all – she was OK with that and would probably still be with OM if his pesky wife hadn’t interfered.

To end the affair you need to be able to take risks. Your wife needs to realize that if she cheats she risks you realizing one major, liberating factor:

YOU DO NOT SHARE YOUR WIFE!

The moment you realize that your biggest fear is not losing her, but rather SHARING her… THAT is the moment where your mindset is correct for reconciling. Or divorcing if she insists on remaining in infidelity.

When you accept THAT as the reality and act accordingly – be it in leading her out of infidelity or be it you getting out of infidelity alone – is when you become a success story on SI.

As for the MC being too early. I didn't again know about a timeline for these things when I booked it. The first one is more of a diagnostic session I think so we will see how it goes

Get a copy of What Makes Love Last by Gottman and Silver. Besides offering insight about the concept of trust and longevity in a relationship, in includes a good list that can help you evaluate the approach/agenda of counselors.

Whatever marital issues may have existed in your M, the most pressing issue right now is the terrible degree of brokenness that exists within your wife, not within your M. You may have M issues that need to be addressed, but the time for MC is NOT now. Your wife needs to be in IC with someone that can help her dig deep into her place that allowed her to cross the uncrossable lines. Her cheating and terribly destructive choices had nothing to do with your marriage, or you.

She must first demonstrate, over time, a dedication to fixing herself in order to provide a reasonable basis to trust and be vulnerable with her again. Unless you have found that one unicorn of a MC that gets this, you may very well suffer from what you end up dealing with in MC.

She has to fix herself before you can hope to fix any pre-existing M problems. You must internalize and believe that her choice to cheat had nothing to do with your M or you. Nothing.

I am very sorry you are here. I hope you take to heart most of the suggestions you read here. Almost everyone you hear from on this forum has been in your shoes. These are not folks on the sidelines with opinions, it is a treasure trove of those that have lived it. Been there. Learned the hard way. Consider wisely what you read here and the experience of others.

Cheaters are all the same in most ways, even if the details of their cheating differs.

SUICIDAL IDEOLOGY:

NOTHING in terms of reconciliation can begin and progress as long as your WW continues to consider suicide, or make suicidal overtures regardless of their sincerity.

Marriage Counseling and counselors will be completely ineffective in the midst of suicidal ideology. As long as she considers suicide or makes suicidal claims, she is interrupting the entire process of affair mitigation, individual diagnosis, healing and marriage recovery.

Sometimes the suicidal ideology is borne from legitimate self hate and shame BUT, many times it's a ploy to divert caring attention and sympathy from the BS to the WS. It's extremely effective. The severely wounded BS finds themselves nursing reassuring and consoling the WS. Watch out for this.

It takes strength and determination for a WS to reverse the damage they have caused. The WS has to do the heavy lifting and not flip the script and play the victim card. The only successful R examples I've seen here involve a WS who has willfully taken charge, lead the charge, owned their shit, and nursed their BS's and the marriage back to health with relentless determination. Your WS is far from that, currently.

This also underscores the imperative that everyone has been preaching that IC must come before MC. You must reconcile with yourself before you can reconcile a marriage.

Your WW's problem solving skills are extremely impaired. There's absolutely no way that she can participate in marital counseling as long as she considers cheating and suicide as productive solutions to fixing herself and a relationship.

Hello Again,

To address more questions.

Yes the affair was physical including intercourse.

We will postpone WC she is currently at an IC session and that is the big focus in this journey at the moment.

As for gaining more of the truth. I don't know how that can happen. My only source of info is my wife and the wife of the OM. Who says her husband is pretty vague about details.

The way they started contact with each other was simply because he was suggested to her as a contact to help with what she was trying to do. She didn't have to go to him but did so because of the suggestion. She never has to see him again or contact him again. In my head switching jobs wouldn't really change the barrier they have to each other. As they could still find a way to message each other if it was something desired.

She said they were just friends and it led to making out less than 10 times and then sex one time and then it all came apart.

I asked her for a detailed timeline but I don't think more details will emerge then.

I have asked about all the details I could think of. "whos idea it was" "any I love yous"

she claims there was never any love.

I know all my details come from my wife but again I don't have any other source.

A question I have is:

I know there are a lot of timelines but what actions or indicators am I looking for to know when to take the appropriate steps?

How does she prove herself to me? Restore trust?

I have ordered a book to read along this topic and I have ordered the "What makes love last" as suggested by one of you.

Again I thank you all for the suggestions.

Very sorry for your shock and pain. It's an awful nightmare. We've all lived it and are living it. You can get through this if you begin to take tangible actions now.

We work at the same place but in different departments and the guy is in another department.

Step one: Jobs will have to change. Immediately.

Step two: Cancel the MC IMMEDIATELY. It is almost universally held here on SI that marital counseling after infidelity is a huge mistake. It will result in rugsweeping and blameshifting. Please heed this advice.

Step three: Rescind any offers of reconciliation. You don't know enough yet, you don't know how you're going to feel, and you're in a state of trauma and shock. It is too soon to offer this.

Below, here's a DIY kit for these early days. This list is not exhaustive, but it will give you a start -- and to be clear, you're at the beginning of a very long and painful process. I've marked steps below that apply to either R (reconciliation) or D (divorce) or simply both scenarios.

1. NO MC. Ignore this if you like, but don't say you weren't warned.

2. Immediately get yourself to individual counseling with a betrayal trauma specialist (D or R, either way you need it) - this specialty, betrayal trauma specialist, is VERY important.

3. Get an immediate appointment with a divorce attorney to understand the process (D or R, either way you need to do this)

4. No hysterical bonding sex with her. Don't do it. Don't fall prey to the tears and sobbing jags. It's a form of manipulation. It may be genuine emotion she's expressing in terms of shame, but the tears are not for you.

5. Get an immediate comprehensive STD test. Demand one from her also (this is a D or R, must have)

6. Finances: Talk to your new attorney about separating finances, and start yourself a new checking account. Start having your paycheck deposited there. Withdraw half of what's in joint accounts and put it in accounts you control. Life insurance, credit cards, etc. A good step for either R or D.

7. Get a voice activated recorder at BestBuy (the $50-60 SONY) with a big memory card and start carrying it around activated in your pocket to record any interactions with her (D or R) This will protect you from false domestic violence charges. Sounds far-fetched? It is not. Heed this.

8. Implement a hard 180. Disengage. I repeat, disengage. Read about the 180 here on SI in the sidebar articles.

9. Demand your WW write a no contact letter to her affair partner that you review. Real NO CONTACT. If she breaks no contact, you're done.

9A. Immediately figure out what is going to happen regarding your employer -- your job, her job, his job. Your attorney can advise you here. Again, this is R or D.

10. She writes down a comprehensive, many pages in length, narrative timeline of the affair in her own hand with pen and paper. She does this in two days. She drags her feet, then it's "fuck you, we're divorcing." Details. Not a minimum outline. The whole truth. No lies of omission. This is probably only R, but you can't R with incomplete information.

11. No TRICKLE TRUTH. No BLAMESHIFTING. No more bullshit JUSTIFICATIONS about how she felt or how you weren't paying enough attention. No more REWRITING THE HISTORY OF YOUR MARRIAGE to portray you in a false bad light. NO MORE.

12. You both read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" - she writes out a detailed plan in her own hand for how she plans on implementing the book's recommendations.

13. She turns over all of her devices to you for open review and retrieval of deleted information. Run Dr. Fone software on her phone.

14. EXPOSE (D or R): Expose the affair to her immediate family. This is not for revenge. It is not to get her family "on your side." It is to stop any minimization or false narrative. And it is to implode the fantasy bubble of the affair.

15. EXPOSE (D or R): Expose the affair immediately to any other betrayed spouse or girlfriend. You must do this. You would want to know if it were you. And this further implodes the fantasy of the affair and typically brings it to a screeching halt.

16. Any physical reminders (gifts, sex toys, lingeries, perfume, anything) of the affair should be thrown away. My WW's AP got her a wine fridge as a gift and my WW passively wouldn't do anything with it after D-Day. Huge mistake on her part. I finally threw it in a dumpster in a fit of rage. (This is a D or R action).

----

GOOD LUCK!

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:40 PM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

Things she should be doing..

Full transparency. You get full access to all online accounts, her phone, email,etc. Passwords included.

Std tests.

She is proactive in helping you deal with triggers, removing as many triggers as she can.

She looks for another job. If you are ok with it, she keeps the job she has, while looking for another one.

She drops any friends who knew about the affair,but didn't tell you.

She answers all questions without anger or defensiveness.

Full timeline, with a polygraph to confirm the timeline is accurate.

She is accountable for her time, when not with you.

IC.

She understands this isn't something you are going to get over. It takes 3 to 5 years to heal from infidelity, and even then, it will always be a part of your life.

You are new to this. You will be amazed at how the infidelity will affect every aspect of your life.

They surely communicated when not at work. Run software on her phone, to retrieve deleted messages and pics. You can't attempt reconciliation, until you know what happened.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:12 PM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

I asked her for a detailed timeline but I don't think more details will emerge then.

Nearly every betrayed spouse who shows up in JFO says this. They are often wrong.

in this journey

Brother, I don't mean to scare you, but you will quickly find out this can't be contained in a phrase like "this journey." That's soft therapeutic language that doesn't do justice to what you're about to go through.

UPDATE TO ADD: If you really want to know more what you're about to experience, listen to the Elton John song, "Rocket Man."

she claims there was never any love.

They all say this.

She didn't have to go to him but did so because of the suggestion.

Don't allow the "Little lost girl in the woods" narrative to creep in here. Your WW is a grown woman capable of making her own decisions. She wasn't talked into this. She made a series of countless deliberate decisions. She disregarded you. She lied to your face countless times.

when I decided I would fight for this.

You shouldn't be fighting for this. You shouldn't have to do that. You did nothing. You'll quickly learn SHE will have to fight for this, not you. And if she's not willing to fight for it, you will need to walk.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:43 PM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

How does she prove herself to me? Restore trust?

You have, through this process, learned some new information about your WW, something you probably didn't previously know. Specifically, you have learned that your WW is the kind of married woman who will meet a man at work and, because she views him as a "friend", decide to take off her panties and invite him to put his dick in her. Nice work friend. A woman who will casually arrogate the right to declare that your marriage is, unbeknownst to you, a secret, one-sided open marriage so she can have casual sex at work with "a friend". The type who will do this and come home and look you in the eye and lie to you about it.

The first question you need to answer for yourself is the following: now that I know this about her, is this the kind of woman I wish to give the rest of my life to? You need to answer that because unless and until she figures out what is fucked up in her moral compass and fixes it, that is the kind of woman you are married to.

By the way, the "sex just one time", that's most likely complete bullshit. You found out because, according to your WW, the AP's wife talked to her. That itself sounds like bullshit, but the bottom line is that the affair was about to be revealed by the AP's wife, which gave your WW and her AP an opportunity to get together and concoct their bullshit story, which they're sticking to by now. Cheaters minimize, and if two cheaters get the chance, they concoct a shared story. It's rare that the BH and the OBW get the same story. Where it happens, it almost always means a concocted story. FWIW, adults who engage in adulterous sex rarely, almost never, do it just once. There is a thrill to the illicit nature of the sex that is intoxicating. If your WW really fucked the AP once and let it fizzle out, she would be in the 0.0000001% of all cheating wives.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:25 PM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

What makes you think she is telling you the truth?

The fact that you only found out from the OBS might tell you something?

Also, from talking to sex at work? Really - I don’t believe that for a second. I think there is more to this that you don’t know.

I would listen to the advise regarding her leaving that job, and reporting it to management.

As for gaining more of the truth. I don't know how that can happen. My only source of info is my wife and the wife of the OM. Who says her husband is pretty vague about details.

This shows that there is more than they admit.

It is important that you know the whole truth and see what you will R with. That doesn't mean you'll definitely R, it just lays the foundation for real R to begin. If some of the things you have learned are dealbreaker for you, you can choose D.

But the steps you will take without learning the whole truth will become meaningless with a new DDay that will come years later. You must not allow this.

The detailed timeline should include all the small details. What, when, where, how did they do it? Who initiated, what was said, how did she feel about herself, her AP and you, etc.

Of course you can't trust anything sourced from your wife, so this timeline will be verified by the polygraph test. Tell her that and let her know that at the slightest lie or concealment you're done, you're not bluffing. And don't really bluff. When you draw a line and she crosses it, don't erase the old one and draw a new one.

You can't save your marriage by nicing her back and doing pick me dance. She's a cheater and a liar and you should treat her like she deserves. I'm not saying to be rude, but you don't have to look like you trust her so you don't upset her. She is unreliable and needs to know that your trust in her is below zero.

She said they were just friends and it led to making out less than 10 times and then sex one time and then it all came apart.

No, they were never friends. How long did it take for them to jump into bed? The destination was clear from the very beginning. Maybe their first sentence wasn't "let's fuck".

How does she prove herself to me? Restore trust?

She must be really remorseful for what she did.

Tears, crying, begging etc, these are not signs of remorse. It just shows the regret she felt for being caught and she feels sorry for herself.

A remorse is the sadness and pain she feels for what she has done to you and your family.

Look at her actions, not her words. And not once, if you see that there is consistency between her words and actions over the years, you can start to trust to some extent over time. But you'll never be able to trust her the way you used to and this is not your fault.

How does she prove herself to me? Restore trust?

Tough questions. Here is the answer, although you may not like it: IT'S NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

The only way that she may be able to restore trust, because it is by no means guaranteed, is by continued acts that are deemed trustworthy.

--Would her trying to restore texts/emails for you to see possibly help?

--Would full transparency of all her devices help?

--Would her constant information of her whereabouts help? Maybe GPS on her phone?

--Would a written timeline of her entire affair help?

--Would her taking a polygraph afterwards to confirm/deny any suspicions help?

WOULD ANY/ALL OF THESE THINGS BEING DONE BY HER WITHOUT YOUR PROMPTING HELP?

It's her job to help restore trust. Think of your trust as a huge bucket, even partially buried underground. With each trustworthy act, one drop gets put in that bucket. It will take a LONG time until that bucket is even up to ground level, yet alone higher. And guess what? One innocuous lie, or omission about anything, infidelity related or not, and that bucket gets dumped out, and settled deeper into the earth. That is why radical honesty is a virtual must in order to rebuild. They are starting so deep in the negative, it takes incredible effort(s) to earn back.

POS is vague. This means OBS is not going to do much other than to reconcile. So it looks like POS is not facing much consequences. Although it is not important at this stage, her narrative on how they came in to contact may not be true

How does she prove herself to me? Restore trust?

She did this because she was depressed may not be true. If you are depressed, sex / affairs is not in the priority list. If she is unhappy (depress) with something related to the marriage then it is possible. Then you have to find whether it is the case and how it can be addressed going forward because down the line it will surface again.

Other reason can be she was looking for some excitement and hoping she will never be caught.

I will say that saving the marriage is super important to me I can't imagine my life without her.

Apparently she does not feel the same. Clinging attachment always lead to misery.

In youtube: ven. Tenzin Palmo Jetsunma's short talk on attachment and clinging

[This message edited by goalong at 2:50 PM, July 14th (Wednesday)]

Unebrochen

I think that you might see our suggestions as drastic and extremely tough and rough…

Well – the truth is that infidelity and it’s initial aftermath is a lot like entering a crisis zone like a burning building. Our suggestions might sound strange to someone that hasn’t had to deal with their home burning, but our suggestions to douse the building with water (and thereby probably destroying the carpets and floor) or tearing off part of the roof to access the fire actually are the suggestions and actions that enable you to save what can be saved.

There is one thing that’s more likely to kill your marriage more than the infidelity, and that is deceit and lies. Be it direct lies or lies by omission.

Like right now you know they met 10 times and there was intercourse once. That is the place you are starting your reconciliation from. You place your heart and soul into it and do all you can. You think you are making progress… only to discover from some source other than her that they met 15 times, or they went out to dinner. Something that really isn’t so major in the whole scheme of things, but because she held it back it a) shows she doesn’t fully trust you and b) whatever trust you might have reestablished is gone.

We call it trickle-truth, and it kills more marriages than infidelity IMHO.

The key is to start your recovery from the right place. From knowing EVERYTHING you need to know.

Think long and hard what you need. How? Why? Where? How often sex? What type of sex? Gifts? In your house? In your car? In her office? Whatever you need. Think if you need it and why. Don’t focus on the emotions like did she love him or stuff like that, but rather factual and measurable factors like what days, time of day, frequency…

Then think things through. You already know she had an affair. Discovering they did it once was bad. Learning they did it 10 times or whatever… wont make it 10 times worse. The KEY THING – the MOST IMPORTANT thing you need is THE TRUTH.

I can promise you this: Discovering NOW that they did it three times or that that time she was working late she was at a hotel or whatever… will cause less pain and less damage than learning 12 months from now that they held hands.

What I suggest is this:

Make a commitment. It’s actually one you already have made.

Commit to reconciliation. Let her know about it. Only tell her that you realize how difficult it will be and that it requires that she shows you with words and actions that she too wants to reconcile, and that she trusts you. Trusts you with the truth.

Make it clear that the biggest hindrance right now is that your trust for her is gone. You want to rebuild it, but she can take a great step by being totally 100% honest with you.

Tell her that you will appreciate the truth, and the truth will NOT lead to you leaving. However – lies – no matter how small – probably might.

Make it clear to her that any truth now might cause pain, but it won’t change your commitment to working things out. There is no guarantee, but if you learn new relevant “truths” later on… well… THAT will erode your belief that reconciliation is possible.

Then ask your questions. Get the truth. Ask her if there is something she wants to add.

Let her know that you might request a polygraph to confirm some of her answers. Tell her the poly isn’t to prove her wrong, but actually a tool to help you build trust. If she passes it should tell you that she’s being honest and you can build trust on that. If she fails however… it clearly shows she doesn’t believe in the marriage.