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Wife of 17 years has been having a multi-year affair

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KingofNothing posted 5/30/2021 15:24 PM

Apparently she was getting a massage at his stuidio. She was emotional about things She was crying and he kissed her forehead. He told her she was beautiful. He grabbed her hand and put it on his crotch.

Clearly she is at fault. That does not diminish my feelings on her actions. She chose to reciprocate, but doing what he did in his position to a vunerable woman is grounds for action in my book. That changed my tune.

Come on, Iceman. You're being played here. If she was so victimized, why come back for three solid years of adultery? Why steal family money and shower it on him?

She spent (conservatively) 20,000 dollars of your marital assets on this man. Despite what she is claiming, she paid this man for sex for three years. Do you seriously think he did even one thing that your wife didn't really want him to do to her? She paid the guy! She showered him with gifts! Believe me, she's not the victim. I mean, he's not either, but she surely isn't.

You are in your rights to complain to any licensing board regulating this industry in your locale. His behavior is predatory and outrageous. Just don't do it with any illusions that you are protecting your wife's reputation. She CHOSE TO DO ALL OF THIS. That woman. That woman you married.

She's not the same woman any more, Iceman. Knock her off the pedestal. None of us belong on one, you, me and everyone here included. She's a selfish, frail human being, full of faults, perfectly capable of making nasty, destructive choices. No, she's not evil incarnate-- but she's most definitely NOT. ON. YOUR. SIDE.

Please watch out. Stop being manipulated, you are placing yourself and your kids in danger.

masti posted 5/30/2021 17:43 PM

First of all your wife has not been having an affair. She has been using a male prostitute for 3 years. No matter how she spins it this is the reality. Three years is a long time to leave. She also manipulated you out of financial independence by making you the stay at home dad. This is often the trap people get manipulated into by some guilt about bringing up kids at home. Millions of parents work these days and kids stay in childcare growing up perfectly healthy. This might have been one way for her to play around and you were not aware of it. Be ruthless dealing with her from now onwards and go after that scumbag too.

Buffer posted 5/30/2021 21:05 PM

Brother she has no remorse for her actions. She has no respect for you, her children or the basic sanctuary of marriage.
It is to note she was not happy for years yet failed to say anything. Taking money from the family to pay him. Food off the table so to be selfish. Finally putting a war chest aside for lawyers. Time to serve her she can pay child support to you.
Get full legal advice. Start exercising for yourself. Expose this three year tryst to family. Expose the OM that he sleeps with clients. Hard 180 now and seek support. Try to keep taking the blame for her actions. At every stage she made conscious decisions to cheat. At no time did she think of others or her family.
Respect yourself and take this one day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 9:17 PM, May 30th (Sunday)]

rambler posted 5/31/2021 13:49 PM

You need to see an attorney asap. You need to know your rights first and foremost. I can not emphasize that enough. Do not delay.

MickeyBill2016 posted 5/31/2021 18:15 PM

Expose the OM that he sleeps with clients.

Not just sleeps with them, he flim flams them into financing his business (but he is not taking money for sex LOL)

rambler posted 5/31/2021 18:47 PM

His first order of business is to find out what happens if the kids are not his. Is he still assumed the father or not.

Tempocontour posted 5/31/2021 20:04 PM

You could expose the OM via his massage website (Facebook?), etc, by saying the he sleeps with clients who are married. And there's nothing wrong and you won't get into trouble since it's true.

Did you expose your stbxw(?) to all her friends, co workers and family? If you want to keep it civil and get a good divorce outcome in your favor, do nothing negative to make your stbxw(?) retaliate. Keep everything civil until after divorce. So far she seems willing to keep everything civil.

Robert22205https posted 6/2/2021 05:27 AM

Iceman ...are you ok?

Your attorney may have advised you to stay off the forum or not discuss your next steps (that's fine).

Feel free to check in, vent etc.

You are not alone.

iceman1000000 posted 6/2/2021 22:20 PM

Hey Robert thanks for checking in on me I appreciate it.

I actually have a lot to post but it has been really busy these last few days. I keep editing the draft but never have the time to finish the post so here it is.

Thanks as always everybody for the amazing advice.

I will try to respond to some of your comments as well as your questions.

However before that, there are some updates to the situation.

I talked with my wife for probably 5 hours Thursday night when I confronted her. Then Friday for probably 6 hours. During that time, even though she seemed remorseful, something has been bothering me.

She is normally a very emotional person, and there has been almost no crying compared to what I would expect from the situation. The initial night I can argue that when she was caught in the lie, her fight responses were in overdrive making sure she wasnt caught. However the next day that we were talking, I expected more a of a emotional response from her. That never happed at all. I actually asked her about it. She said she didnt know why she wasnt crying.

There is the possibility that it is because she just wants out of the marriage, so it really isnt that big of a deal to her. However, even though I am not seeing things clearly because of my own emotions, I didn't feel like that was it.

I know her well enough, well actually let me rephrase that. I used to think I knew her well enough to know what was going on. Obviously I never really knew the real her.

In any case, I felt like she was probably hiding more secrets, and I wanted to know what they were. She kept promising there was not anything more. Me asking repeatedly wasnt turning up any more information. So I decided to take a different approach.

I have been telling her a divorce is on its way. Even if there is even the slightest option for reconciliation, I don't want to give her any hope.

I have been staying calm and cool through the process just like getting a job interview as was suggested. No raising my voice or being hurtful.

She has always been great about building up emotional walls since I have known her, even before we ever dated. I wondered if maybe the same thing was happening.

So I told her the affair was inexcusable which she agreed with. However I apologized and took some responsibility for the fact that the marriage requires both parties to work at it and I never did put in as much effort as I should have. Which is true.

I never did anything specifically bad to her, but during the hard times I was okay with the marriage reaching a mediocre level and never really worked as hard as I should to get us out of it. She had alot of abandonment issues from her parents when she was younger, and I know she is the type of person that needs alot of verbal affirmation, and I am not the type of person that is good at giving it. I would go through phases where I would try, but most of the time never was great at providing that. We had already discussed that in our counseling years ago. But I know she said during counseling all that time ago that she never felt like I was truly sorry for not putting in more effort.

So I dropped my pride and apologized for that aspect. I told her I was genuinely sorry for that aspect. I said that I had truly loved her during the marriage and it is very sad and unfortunate that because of her actions we are now going to lose everything we built.

Let me be clear. I in no way feel like the affair is my fault. That is not what I was apologizing for. I feel absolutely no guilt on my part for her choosing to cheat.

There is no justification for having an affair. None. I cannot stress that enough. If she wanted to fulfill her selfish desires then that is her choice, but she should have asked for a divorce first and not dragged myself and our children through this.

In any case, as soon as I apologized and gave her a hug it all broke apart. The tears started and didnt stop for awhile. I didn't console her and act like everything was okay. I just basically told her how dissapointing it was that she was willing to throw all of this away for selfishness.

She said nothing more to me at that point but it felt like things had changed. She seemed like she was even more conflicted which made me even more certain there was more.

I went to take a shower and left her alone with the conversation that we had had. I waited quite awhile to come back. So as soon as we sat down she said that she needed to talk to me. She said there was alot more she hadn't admitted.

Starting from the most recent here is what she said which is in addition to the 3 year affair with the massage therapist.

A few months ago she started having a sexual affair with one of her clients. They met up for sex 3 times at his house. She said after the third time she broke it off.

A year ago she had an emotional affair with another client, all through text. All leading up to a point where they were texting sexually explicit content to each other. She said the day after they got very explicit they both realized how innappropriate in was and stopped.

About 10 years ago she had another instance in which she and a client flirted during the loan she did for him, and that led to them flirting and being suggestive through text messages for awhile. She said it didn't get sexually explicit like with the other texter but it was definitely not something appropriate.

Additionally, before we were married and we had first started dating she had cheated on me with her ex, she also said additionally there was another guy in spain she had only kissed. For years after we were married I felt she was lying about the only kissing aspect. Honestly even though it was so long ago, it has eaten at me for years. The act doesnt matter at this point but the lie does. So she admitted she had sex with him multiple times.

Also not that this matters as much from a cheating point of view as we were not together, but she admitted she had sex with 3 different friends of mine in high school. The issue with that is during the time we started dating I asked her about her partners as we both went to a small private school together. She told me the people she had slept with and left those other guys out. So obviously not cheating, but a blatent lie.

Those are all the sexual aspects. Now on to the financial issues.

She admitted she had a credit card she had been using to buy extra things for herself on the side. Mainly stuff like getting facials, buying herself clothes etc. It wasn't a secret card in that she had it when we got married, but after the marriage she said she would stop using that card so we could have a joint bill.

She also loaned out $12,000 to her cousin with an eating disorder, so she could check into a rehab facility for awhile. That money has never been repaid as her cousin doesnt have the resources to attempt to do so.

Additionally she loaned out $4,000 to her brother for his divorce. That money has been repaid.

All of those were within the last few years during the sexual affairs.

I think that about covers everything that I can remember. It is hard to keep up with all of it.
Clearly at this point it is obviously she had some serious issues I never knew about. She was able to pathologically lie right to me for years.

All of this further complicates my emotional state. I know that I have no reason to believe that is this finally all of it, but yet I tend to think that is all. I had an instint there was more up to this point, but that instinct now tells me that is it, at least regarding infidelity. 

She told me she did not tell me about the other affairs because she didn't want to lose the slightest chance we could work it out. She knew that if I knew about the others that there probably wouldn't never be an option to reconcile.

Again maybe I am just being naive, but I tend to believe that there isn't much reason she would hold back any other secrets. Especially because I am so beaten and kicked to the bottom of the hole that there isn't much more she do to me at this point. Unless she was hiding more money to try to leave, I can't see any reason she wouldn't tell me if there was more since we are already at this low. She couldn't do much more to me. And she told me about affairs I had no proof of, so I never would have known about them anyway.

LIke I said, I am not certain that there isn't more, but since this started I finally feel like that is all.

Based on all of the information so far I talked to her again about her feelings on all of this. She said she has no right to even deserve it, but she would like for us to work. If we go the divorce route she won't fight any of my demands.

I told her from a financial perspective, I plan on hiring a forensic accountant to verify all that she said. She had no problem with that.

I have already verified some of it. All of it so far seems legitimate but I would like the forensic accountant anyway.

We talked for probably 14 hours on Saturday during the course of all of the additional information. Things stayed civil for the most part. She initiated wanting to come clean to my family and apologize as well as her family. Sunday she spent the day visiting all the families and letting them know about all of the lies. We talked an additional 5 hours that evening. Then probably another 6 hours Monday.

During the course of all the conversations I have not had any more feelings about there being additional lies. I am not saying I am totally convinced, as clearly she cut up the bridge of trust and burned it to the ground. However I don't have that gut feeling like I did before. 

Our only interactions have been during our meetings to talk as well as parenting the kids. I have been staying in a separate part of the house. I have not been in our bedroom with her.

So delving into the affairs, she said she never wanted any type of serious relationship with them. She said she just liked the attention and affirmation. She said all the I love yous they said were because he started them, and she just went with it. She also admitted it crossed her mind he may be using her because she was paying him for massages before they had sex. But she said she tried to ignore it.

Though she has been continually lying and I probably am too emotionally connected to have a an unbiased view, there are aspects of what she is saying that seem like there could be some truth to.

Unless I find otherwise, which I haven't yet so far they only met during work hours. The meetings varied through the years in frequency. It seems they would be every 1 to 2 to 3 weeks. Not really any consistent pattern. It seems to me if there was any more to the relationship they would have gotten together more freqeuently. She clearly had the ability to do so without me knowing but never did. Additionally, they never got together on weekends, or did anything together as a couple. Literally just met had a massage sex cuddle then on with the day.

The only client she had sex with was clearly for those reasons. They never seemed to have any interest in a relationship.

I felt like I was dealing with it pretty well until today when I was sitting in the waiting room waiting for an STD test, and it all hit me like a ton of bricks. Obviously I assume the emotions are going to be constantly changing.

In any case I got that done today. I have a meeting set with a divorce lawer on friday. I am trying to find a therapist I can visit as well. I am also trying to find a forensic accountant but haven't picked anybody yet. I am leaning towards not getting a paternity test done at least not now. My love for my kids will not be affected regardless of the outcome and to me they are my kids no matter what. But if the test came back that there weren't mine it would just make the pain that much harder.

Part of me really feels like trying to find a way to reconcile with her even though she doesn't deserve it. I am not rushing into that right now. I also am not giving her any indication that is an option. But the feeling is there. If I didn't have kids, that wouldn't be on the table, but having kids makes it harder for me. I know that kids are resilient. I know plenty of kids that have been through divorces and are doing great. But in a perfect scenario I would be able to find a way to make it work. I just don't know if that is possible.

A struggle for me too is even though part of me wants to make it work, I feel like if I ever made it work that she never really suffered enough. She got to satisfy her needs at the expense of the family for years, then she gets me back and life is good. I know it is not a good attitude, but I feel like if we reconciled I would always feel like she got the good deal while I suffered.I know that I would have to truly forgive her which is hard enough. Then there is the trust issue, which is clearly the elephant in the room.

Anyway thats where I am at currently with everything. I will try to answer some questions.

Read up on hysterical bonding. It's very real (something that humans are hardwired to do).

This is exactly what I have been experiencing and I have been trying not to have sex with her because I know that will mess with my decision making ability. But that is spot on with what I am feeling.

What does she claim was wrong in your marriage, besides her screwing the massage therapist for 3 years? What does she claim was lacking for her? Had you two ever discussed it? What did you think about the state of your relationship prior to her starting on the path of infidelity?

I will go into detail on this but sorry for the length and I hope I don't bore you all too much.

Our marriage was not perfect from the start. We had a phenomenal relationship as friends all the way from grade school into high school then college when we started dating. We had a great dating relationship for about 8 months. Then we broke up over the fact that she said she only kissed a guy in spain during the start of our relationship while she was there with some friends. I got into her email and found messages between her and her friends insinuiating they had sex. She said that was not true. I knew she was lying based on the what the emails, but they did not specifically say that had sex, thus I had no proof. Ultimately we got back together but things were never the same from that point. There were good times and bad but never great like they were.

I knew she was lying, but I also knew she wasn't telling me because she didn't want to lose me. She had huge abandonment issues from her childhood. We didn't really fight about anything specific, just stupid little stuff. I feel like there was constant tension because we were back together while just ignoring a lie. Being stupid kids we got married after another year of up and down dating. After getting married I would ask her throughout the years about the spain thing again but she always lied up until the other night when she came clean.

The marriage mirrored the dating. Up and down with no real specific thing that was the cause. She has always needed alot of verbal affirmations, compliments, good jobs etc. I know that is her love language. That was easy to do while we were in the good spot and the beginning of dating. But after the lie when things starting going up and down it just didn't come naturally to me. She was upfront that she wanted that to get better. I would work on it for awhile and then it would lapse. I would genuinely try, but struggled with doing it consistently probably because I had never really let go of her lying. Again, at this point were both stupid young kids in our early to mid 20s who should have never gotten married.

Additionally she always wanted sex more than me. I was fine with 1 or 2 times a week. She wanted 4 or 5. She was clear though that the bigger issue wasn't the sex, but the intimacy she got from it. That satisfied her affirmation and self esteem needs.

We both discussed divorce but it never really went anywhere.

As the years progressed, the marriage just became mediocre. We both decided we wanted kids and needed to work on things before we did that. We went to couples therapy. She let me know that alot of unhappiness came from not getting the verbal affirmations and the lower sex drive.

I worked on it and things and we agreed things were finally getting better. I stopped going to counseling while she kept going. Probably not the best move on my part but I thought I was doing good and didn't need it. She was okay with me quitting as long as I kept putting in the effort. I did for awhile however during the course of the pregnancy and after the birth of our daughter things started getting mediocre again.

I chalked it up to the fact that we now had the stress of raising a child. The fact that she worked until 8 to 9 oclock at night most nights leaving me with the newborn made me feel like I was always exhausted and I felt like a single parent. I hoped things would get better on their own as we adjusted. That never happened, and eventually we were right back where we started and time just passed. So about a year after the birth of our daughter is when the affair finally started.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have let things lapse into mediocrity. I know she would have liked me to go back to counseling with her. I should have just worked up the energy and dropped my stubbornness to do it.

I constantly would ask her to work less and told her that I would be happy if we made less money, but she has an all or nothing approach. She is a hard worker and can't say no to a deal. I respected that when we were younger, but I told her before we had kids that she had to change that, That never happened and I was pissed after we had kids that she didn't change and I felt totally alone as a parent.

Even right now as I type this it is almost 9:00 at night and she told me she has another hour of work. Meanwhile I am here with the kids who haven't seen mommy for more than an hour all day. For what it is worth, she is working from her home office, so I know she isnt out cheating. But as I said before work is a top priority for her and in my opinion she places the family in second place.

Ultimately I should have gone back to therapy with her when she asked after our daughter was born and voiced my frustrations to the therapist. Maybe a third party mediating could have kept this whole thing from happening.

Again I don't condone the affair. That is never something that can be justified in my opinion. I am not making excuses for that. I am just owning my responsibility with the other aspects of our marriage. I truly think I am a good guy and a great catch. I never feel like I did anything to really wrong her so to speak. I just think I didn't do the little things she needed for her love language. Probably a combination of being complacent and being upset that she never would tell me the truth about the cheating and sex she had in spain.

Additionally, we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as cuddling, affirmations, compliments etc. She craves them and needs them more than anybody I have ever met. She agrees with that assessment. Whereas I have had no need to receive affirmations etc. During the initial 8 months we dated when things were great, we managed to somehow meet in the middle without having to try. But after the lies started it just became difficult.

And I’d venture a guess that any issues you had the last 3 years were BECAUSE SHE WAS CHEATING and not any other reason.

See above but yes the last 3 years our relationship got way worse and I have no doubt it was because she was having the affairs.

What does appear objectively obvious is that you’re dealing with a spouse that has the ability to lie like a sociopath

Agreed and that is what is so concerning to me as far as ever being able to reconcile. She clearly can lie better than I ever thought. She seems like she has no remorse when she does it.

Keep this card in your pocket until after the D is final, then report him.

Yeah good idea with that. I don't plan on going after him quite yet.

Did you ask her whether she bought gifts for him? Did she ever say who the clothes were for, and the bed sheets, for example? The money stuff is sketchy. She told you in the initial confrontation that she was divorce planning and the withdrawals were for that purpose, but the timing of them -- periodically, regularly, corresponding with the gigolo sessions -- suggest she could have been gifting him money. There is a term often used here: "financial infidelity." It's another form of infidelity that often leads to divorce. From my view, your WW was unfaithful sexually, emotionally, and financially. Not just unfaithful, she was secretly divorced from you in terms of emotions and sex, and was getting her cards lined up to divorce you legally and financially.

Yes she admitted the clothes as well as the bedsheets were for him. Yeah honestly I think he was just using her. He had a sweet gig in his mind. Get a regular paying massage client plus free sex in addition. Yes absolutely agree she was unfaithful sexually emotionally and financially.

As to you, please focus on your health at present. These circumstances can be hard on a person. One tends to loose weight, which isn't always a bad thing but there was a BH on here a while ago who passed out one day from lack of food and dehydration and suffered a pretty bad knock on the head. So be sure to hydrate, exercise, eat regularly, and stay off the booze.

Thanks great advice about that. I already have some health issues I have gotten over the last year I think are from the stress of this and struggle with that. Ive been noticing I will go the whole day and not eat. I am already losing weight. I will be more diligent about making sure that I stay on that.

iceman, try to keep in mind that this woman in front of you is not the woman you thought you were married to.

Yeah you are right I keep getting more surprised every day by that fact.

Ice please do NOT tell your wife that you intend on going after this massage therapist that she's been fucking for the past three yrs (reporting him). There are some crazy people out there and who knows what he'd do if he was backed into a corner and could lose his livelihood.

Not planning on telling her if I do. Yeah the crazy people aspect makes me a little worried. I want to make him pay, but I also have kids and dont want a retaliation situation. Not really sure what I will do. I have actually thought if I didn't turn him in, and somehow a reconciliation were to happen, that my wife would have to agree to proceed with pressing charges against him. That would make me know she is not protecting him and is giving up that relationship. Not happening now, but the thought crossed my mind.

And yes have her apologize to the entire family for her huge betrayal, it helps with remorse and may be beneficial to an eventual D settlement. Was the 155k on the other acount like she claimed ?

Yes she has apologized to family. She actually did it on her own without my prodding. Yeah the 155k was on the other account. I am making sure my name gets put on the account. I haven't been able to find any other missing money at this point but will try to get a forensic accountant to confirm.

It sounds like your WW was exchanging ego kibbles (how beautiful she is etc...) fox sex gifts and money. She was probably in love with him... and he’s just using her.

Agreed

So, in a way, what your WW is doing is incredibly human and also incredibly dishonest. It doesn’t make her the worst person ever created. But it does leave you with certain knowledge. You now know: 1.) She can lie to your face. 2.) She can offload guilt to the point you don’t notice her having any of it. 3.) She can take advantage of you for what you bring her. This leads to the conclusions that, in the future: 1.) You don’t really know what she is thinking. 2.) You won’t be able to detect if she is telling you the truth. 3.) She has no qualms about doing something horrible for an extended period of time so long as it suits her needs. The issue then becomes, is a relationship sustainable? I’d argue that she cannot change those aspects of herself – they’re inherent.

This is  really something I totally agree with you about and have been struggling with. I tend to  normally always feel that people have a difficult time changing things that have been so hardwired. I am not saying it never happens, but I tend to think it somewhat of a rarity. This is something that makes reconciliation seem like it may be very difficult to achieve.

Confused on this point because you wrote that you read all sort of hotel type sneaking around. That they planned to enter at seperate times and to make sure the door was unlocked. If they were just "expanding" her appointments this seems a little excessive.

Yeah I never did clarify that with her. I didn't actually go back to compare those specific texts to the affair dates. I know they started the affair in the massage studio then supposedly moved back to his house. So I don't know whether those texts correspond with when they were at the studio with other clients there. I need to do some digging when I have time to verify.

Can you prove the apt is next to the hotel? It only matters in the is she telling the truth or making things up like the "better interest rate" lie (IMO) Savings accounts pay next to nothing % rates, all of them. Sounds a little shady. Ask her how much she has given Eric. The FA may find a very different amount.
Honestly havent checked on the location but I should do that. Yeah I found that suspect about the interest rates. She claims she doesn't have an exact amount. She said she would only get massages some of the time. She said she would buy packages then gradually use them. I personally estimate she spent close at least $10,000 possibly up to $15,000. That will be something I want to talk with the forensic accountant about. Though it may be difficult with it being all cash I dont know.

Ice please read (and reread) Waggingthedog's last post. Let it sink in!! I've been coming to SI for about six years and this may very well be the most insightful post I've come across. Thanks Wagging for sharing it. In my humble opinion it should be pinned to the top of Just Found Out and every newbie that comes here should read it.

That was a great post wagging. Thanks for taking to time to write so much really great information.I really appreciate you doing that.

Iceman, what kind of personality does your wife have? Is she the type who always needs to be right, always in charge? My XWW thought she was always the smartest person in the room and as a high school teacher she often was, but not among adults. It seems like she is a workaholic breadwinner in the family and she is also financing her BF/boyandgirltoy massage business. Both of those situations may give her a feeling of control and superiority over 2 of the men in her life. If there is a major discrepancy in income that can have some ripple effects.

She is stubborn. She like to act like she is tough and doesn't care about what others think. Deep down however she is really hard on herself with low self esteem. Yes she is a total workaholic though I feel like she does it to escape from having to deal with any negative thoughts she has. Thus why I think she started working even more after we had kids and the affair started. She didn't want to deal with the problems so that is her release.

The decision to R or D is yours to make. I sense that you're leaning toward D. Sometimes minds change and that's okay. If you do decide to R I suggest you need to know all the dirty details so there is no sudden new reveal and reset some time down the road. Even years. Deciding to D is a perfectly valid decision.

Thanks yeah I lean towards D but part of me really wants to find a way I could make R work since we have kids. Yeah the dirty details make it hurt so much worse, but I tend to agree which is why I have been asking for them. Who knows whether R will happen but I feel like I have to know.

Ask her if she ever spoke to an attorney about the impact that divorce would have on her? If she did, she probably found out that with a stay at home dad she looses big time in terms of money and access to the kids. That may explain why she 'prefers' to stay married. And is something you need to verify.

According to her, she got the money out in case she needed it but she supposedly had not contacted an attorney yet. She claims it was because she was planning on having a talk with me telling me we had to either fix the marriage or divorce. She was worried if I chose divorce and it got bad that she would have money in case the assets were frozen. That being said, she told me she did contact an attorney a few years ago. Not sure sure if the affair was happening then. But she actually had a preliminary meeting with the attorney. She started crying during the meeting. He told her that based on the way she was acting and what he had seen with his clients it did not seem like she was ready for a divorce yet. She decided not to proceed. That is what she said about that meeting. 

The sine qua non of cheating is character. Millions of married people have body images, or mid-life crises, or merely experience the ebbs and flows of normal marriage, without choosing to have sex with somebody outside of the marriage. The operative word is "choice". Your wife chose to do this, out of all of the things she could have chosen. It speaks to her character. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with somebody who has exhibited this level of character?

Absolutely. Totally agree. That is why I in no way feel there was any justification for cheating. Yeah I don't want to spend my life with anybody that has even a fraction of that type of character in them. It would only be possible to reconcile if then she could somehow change her core character, which is why I struggle with how R could work. Because that would not be something that can easily be changed.

That is a huge load of bullshit! She was crying during a massage? Then he kissed her, complimented her, and then took her hand and placed it on his dick? DO NOT BELIEVE THAT! Your wife is not Little Bo Peep. You can be pretty sure that she was sending this dude pretty strong "available signals" before he moved in on her. I would guess that she was more the aggressor since she had to go seek him out in order to have contact with him. SHE MANIPULATED YOU WITH THAT STORY.

Yeah I actually did get an update on that with some of her new information. She said the initial meeting she cried when he touched her because she hadn't felt those emotions in so long claiming we were in a bad place so she really didn't feel that connection from me. She said she liked the touch knowing it was wrong and kept getting massages. He gave her his number. They started flirting via text. Eventually during getting the massage he did the kissing as well as did the crotch grab thing. But she admitted they had been opening flirtging via text but it never was anything more until he did that. So yeah she had a part. But I do think somebody in his position with a medical license shouldn't make the initial move with an unclothed female client in the vulnerable state there were in

She spent (conservatively) 20,000 dollars of your marital assets on this man. Despite what she is claiming, she paid this man for sex for three years. Do you seriously think he did even one thing that your wife didn't really want him to do to her? She paid the guy! She showered him with gifts! Believe me, she's not the victim. I mean, he's not either, but she surely isn't.

Yeah agreed she totally had a part and I don't feel bad for her. I just feel like he was wrong in the way he pursued her during a massage. But yes she was certainly not innocent. It just shouldnt have started physically the way it did.

Lurkster posted 6/2/2021 23:54 PM

Holy mother of god. I realize there are kids to think about, but if you had the fortitude to pull off a successful R in this situation, you would be the uncontested world champion in my book. The shit sandwich you would need to eat to continue forward in this situation would require you to unhinge your jaw and live out your years in worry of hepatitis. Your number one job in the coming days, weeks, and months is to not sleep with your wife. It will cloud your judgment and only make things more complicated. Wishing you all the best, Iceman.

[This message edited by Lurkster at 11:57 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)]

longsadstory1952 posted 6/3/2021 00:24 AM

You need to look at this coldly. Her confessions smack of getting it off her chest to make herself feel better. She can finally drop the rocks she has carried. And hand them to you.

So let’s she what we now know. First, she has been lying to you and keeping secrets about her sleeping around for your entire marriage and before as well.

Speaking conservatively, she has had sexual encounters with two men and one woman over a three year period that number at least 100 occasions, and probably are closer to 200 or more.

She has stolen from the marital community and her own children tens of thousands of dollars.

She has been contemplating divorcing you and expects you to shape up or she is out. And she gets pissy when the issue of marital support comes up.

She has now made the affairs public, not that it was a secret before to who knows how many people.

BUT, she wants to make it work. How exactly? And why? So she can keep her lifestyle?

Let’s be blunt. Your wife is a sick mess, apparently having not an iota of regard for you, who literally has been patronizing a prostitute, and cannot see that this is destructive and dangerous behavior.

Oh. And then there is sleeping or engaging in sex talk with her clients. This is career suicide. Do you really think this behavior is a secret from others?

Assuming you can avoid vomiting at the thought of what she has been up to, you need to consider how she views the kids. She fucked around during her pregnancy, so it’s pretty clear how much regard she has for them.

Yet you are at least toying with not divorcing. I get you are conflicted. But consider this. You are never going to get over this. It is never going away. She need years of therapy, but what does that get you? Years of misery, with her backsliding, blaming you and everyone else, focusing on her own healing while expecting you to cut her continuous slack. And the effect on the kids is horrible.

You only course is to protect yourself and the kids from this female Caligula. You know what to do. Be at it.

Sceadugenga posted 6/3/2021 01:25 AM

That's a painful read, brother. Your marriage seems like a toxic, exploitative relationship where the wife gets to step out whenever she feels like it and for whatever reason, while you constantly try to cater to her "needs", all the time self-blaming for your putative failures. The fact that she got you to apologise for not feeling sorry for your implied shortcomings is plainly preposterous.

Not only doesn't she seem like a spouse and mother material (EVER!!!), but she comes off as personality-disordered. From now on, step very gingerly - goodness knows what kind of evil she might unleash upon you when the divorce gets underway.

src9043 posted 6/3/2021 01:28 AM

Your WW is a mess. She is a serial cheater who will cheat on you again. She is also a calculating liar. Children can do well after a divorce. To sacrifice your life in such a manner as to stay with her would be tragic. Consider having an open marriage if you stay because that will be her understanding. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but someday in the future. She is simply broken and this stretches back to her adolescence. Bottom line is it is your life. But this woman has spit all over you, her children, and the marriage. You will have nothing but more heartache if you stay with her.

paboy posted 6/3/2021 03:30 AM

I mostly like to see good endings, and for reconciliation when it fits...

However, your situation is really horrendous.

Your wife needs to take a good hard look at herself in a mirror. What does she see? If she is honest, the amount of deceit she has shown, for the length of time that she has done, the image back would portray a very ugly person.

And you need to be mindful of this for yourself. What image do you wish to see of yourself in the mirror, and what would help you achieve this?

Perhaps, confronting the both of you with this analogy, may bring reality into both of your lives.

Best of luck what ever you decide.

[This message edited by paboy at 3:38 AM, June 3rd (Thursday)]

ChamomileTea posted 6/3/2021 05:49 AM

She has always needed alot of verbal affirmations, compliments, good jobs etc. I know that is her love language. That was easy to do while we were in the good spot and the beginning of dating. But after the lie when things starting going up and down it just didn't come naturally to me. She was upfront that she wanted that to get better. I would work on it for awhile and then it would lapse. I would genuinely try, but struggled with doing it consistently probably because I had never really let go of her lying. Again, at this point were both stupid young kids in our early to mid 20s who should have never gotten married.

Additionally she always wanted sex more than me. I was fine with 1 or 2 times a week. She wanted 4 or 5. She was clear though that the bigger issue wasn't the sex, but the intimacy she got from it. That satisfied her affirmation and self esteem needs.

Ugh... there's no telling how much damage that Five Love Languages book has done.
I hope you won't mind, but I'm going to reprint a post I made for someone else on this "unmet needs" malarkey. You can see really clearly in what you've posted that it's NOT about unmet needs. It's about your WW's unhealthy inability to self-validate. People aren't born needing external validation in order to feel whole. That's FOO damage and/or trauma. You're not just a personality opposite of her that you don't need these things. You're a reasonably healthy ADULT who is capable of self-validating.

EVERYONE enjoys flattery and attention when they're in the mood for it; sex, compliments, gifts, etc. The difference between healthy and unhealthy is NEEDING and WANTING. When a person needs that kind of external validation in order to feel whole, they're NOT whole. They're sick or injured. And yet we have this pop-psy which is still being taught to wannabe counselors all over the world which makes someone else's unhealthy need for attention OUR problem. We sign up to share someone else's life, not to be responsible for their arbitrary "needs".

Anyway, I'll leave that re-post for you. I think you're doing VERY WELL overall. You need to know that this wasn't your fault though, and in the event that you do decide you want to know more about R, this is one of those things your WW would have to achieve healing on, this "external need for validation". She's not a particularly good candidate until she understands that ADULTS attend to their own needs/wants and they do that by negotiating with their spouse.

My own WH went on a Craigslist binge six years ago, multiple partners, various degrees of emotional attachment. He even thought he was in love at one point. But ten years before that, I'd caught him out in some online shenanigans, porn, cybersexing, emotional affair, etc. In fact, I caught him out only two weeks before a planned meet-up. I'd already seen an attorney before I confronted him and I was bent on divorce, but he pretty much cried his way out of it and I settled on MC. As you might have guessed already, we too were bamboozled with the "unmet needs" model of therapy, which sounds so reasonable. I upped my wife game, and did my best pick-me polka, but within a couple of years, he was right back at it behind my back. By the time we reached the ten year mark, he had screwed up his nerve to go live and in person on Craigslist.

Of course, I was pretty shocked as you might imagine. I thought we were good. I thought his "needs" were met. Damned if I hadn't been turning myself inside out for a decade to make sure, right? The more I thought about it, the more I revisited what I knew about the "unmet needs model", the less it made sense. I was doing everything right and he still CHOSE to cheat.

Here's the fly in the "unmet needs" ointment...
Healthy ADULTS don't need to be validated. They validate internally. Healthy adults are self-fruitful in the matter of contentment and life satisfaction, and when things come up which make them unhappy, they address the cause and solve the problem. OTOH, the vast majority of cheaters cheat because they're seeking external validation. They are NOT emotionally healthy. They can't do it on their own. They've got a hole inside them and no amount of external validation will fill it. Certainly, the old and familiar validation of a spouse doesn't get the job done. Our "kibbles" are stale and boring. They don't create enough adrenaline anymore to make the cheater feel special. It's like getting an "atta boy" from your mom, right?

This is old pop-psy which is still being taught in schools and still selling books. But it's bullshit. NOTHING you can do (or fail to do) can MAKE another person throw away their core values and do something that's in this kind of opposition to good character. If you're a person who BELIEVES in fidelity, who VALUES fidelity, you don't cheat. End of story. Because when we truly value something we protect it. The cheater has a "but..." in his values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, but... not if my needs aren't being met." For people like you and me, we have a "so..." in our values system. ie. "I believe in fidelity, so... I don't put myself in risky situations with the opposite sex." This is the BOUNDARY we create organically. We don't sit around planning it out. It just happens, because it's innate to our character to protect what we value. The cheater doesn't have those boundaries because he doesn't really honor his values. He only claims to.

I'm not saying that your marriage is over or that your WH can't change. What I am saying though is that this "unmet needs" model is NOT going to challenge him to clean up his flawed character. In fact, it allows him to offload responsibility onto the marriage and onto YOU. It's not your job to MAKE him feel (fill-in-the-blank-here). It never was. It's his job to control his feelings. You could have been doing everything exactly perfect for the entire length of your marriage, and he would still have cheated... because there's NOTHING in his character stopping him and he has no coping mechanism to fall back on when he feels unvalidated, inadequate, unappreciated, etc.

It's HIS job to see that his "needs" get met. Sometimes that might mean negotiating with you, say if it's about sex or about the division of labor in your home, etc. But sometimes, it might mean that what he sees as a "need" is unhealthy in an adult, like external validation through attention and flattery.

MC's are there to treat the marriage. The marriage is the client. So, of course they're going to talk about communications, resentments and expectations. The MC doesn't want to alienate anyone, so s/he's looking to find balance on both sides. But marriages don't cheat. People do. The only way your WH is going to make a change that safeguards against further perfidy is by correcting his need for external validation and becoming an emotionally healthy adult whose deeds are as good as his word. No excuses, just honoring the things he claims to value. For that, I would recommend IC (individual counseling) with a therapist who is well-versed in adultery.

The last thing any newly-minted BS needs is to walk into an MC's office, believing that they've come to safe harbor, and being handed a copy of The Five Love Languages or some other "unmet needs" gobbledygook. It would be really nice if we actually did have the power to control our mate by giving them "acts of service" or "words of affirmation", but sadly, we aren't gods who can stop a cheater from seeking out his/her choice of adrenaline rush and new kibbles. Although, this kind of pop-psy suggests that their behavior is somehow our responsibility. The more you dig into this ridiculous line of thought, the more absurd it becomes.

Anyway... sorry for the lengthy post. Nothing fries my ass more than seeing new BS's being sold this bill of goods.

Buster123 posted 6/3/2021 06:23 AM

Brother I'm sorry but based on your latest update it pretty much confirms your WW is a serial cheater and your M has been a sham, your WW has NEVER been honest with you. Moreover based on the gifts alone she must have had some feelings for POSOM, he was being paid for sex but on top of that she took time and effort to buy more things for him and show him affection and appreciation.

In that preliminary consult she probably found out about alimony/spousal support, child support, division of assets and the financial hit she would have to endure, that's probably why she started stashing cash away and making loans she never told you about until now, in an effort to keep that money away from an eventual D that she has been considering for years.

Again, I suggest you DNA your kids now, they will be your kids regardless but you don't want them to find out later via 23andme, Ancestry or any or other way (we've seen this before), not having 100% certainty will probably consume you, not to mention that it's an important medical information should any of them need a transplant or for diagnosis later in life. You don't want to be caught off guard during a custody battle, have that information ready so that your attorney is better prepared.

Cheaters lie and minimize, as other have mentioned, you need to verify the hotel/apartment story something doesn't add up, and insist on a detailed written timeline of all the As, it helps with remorse, remorse helps no matter if you decide to R or D. Btw has she disclosed the identities of all clients she betrayed with you ? if not she's protecting them.

Cooley2here posted 6/3/2021 06:31 AM

Your wife needs intensive EMDR. Talk therapy alone will not drive those demons out. She was acting out her compulsions at an early age. There was a pretty girl in my hs who was notorious for having sex with any guy who asked. At our hs reunion she left with a married man not to be seen again. These people have such damaged cores that their needs control them. Tis truly has nothing to do with you.

How was your childhood? You might well have some issues. You have “known” from the beginning that her excuses were shaky but you dated/married her. If both of you brought that much baggage there was never a chance for a healthy marriage.

Robert22205https posted 6/3/2021 07:06 AM

Iceman: Thank you for checking in. You are not the first (nor the last to experience this shit sandwich).

How are you sleeping? Did you get help from your doctor managing your emotions and dealing with lack of sleep??

With respect to her confessing her previous affairs, had you already mentioned her taking a polygraph test??

Did her confession to family include a reference to an unhappy marriage - or the admission that she's a serial cheater??

It does get better in time. Mood swings and conflicting emotions occur less often and will be more manageable when they occur. Read up on PTSD.

Everything you're feeling/thinking is typical for someone that just experienced a traumatic betrayal.

Your Trauma is actually made worse because you are not just processing the 3 year affair - but she's been cheating (deceiving you) for your entire +17 year relationship.

This is a seriously broken person that has pretty much always lived a double life. Therefore, whether she was happy in her marriage is 100% irrelevant to her decision to cheat.

The person that cheated on you was NEVER present in your marriage. Therefore, there is nothing you (or any other husband) could have said or done to prevent her cheating.

Finally, write up a list of questions for your attorney - and bring a pad to take notes.

Butforthegrace posted 6/3/2021 07:52 AM

Wow. That’s a lot to unpack. The person you are married to is WAY not the person you thought you were married to. Like one of those psycho-thriller movies where the lead character has a lurking suspicion that things aren’t right, and gradually the antagonist’s facade is peeled away until the big reveal at the film’s climax. Except this is your real life.

Your WW is both a chronic liar and a serial cheater. She presented a false version of herself to you from the outset, to entice you to marry her, and has continued to lead a false double life the entire time you have been married. That is the big takeaway here. Let’s delve into a few particular, in no real order:

Several posts ago, you said this about the therapist:

I actually did not like her because i felt likd shd was pushing us towards divorce when we first went.

It’s possible, even likely, that the therapist knew about the foundational lies your WW told you early in the relationship and knew that your marriage was thus not built on honesty and trust, but rather deceit and facade. It would explain why the therapist thought you should divorce before having kids. She figured that sooner or later the truth would out, and if that occurred after kids were in the picture, the damage would be much greater.

I say it that way because I want you to be cognizant of the choices your WW decided to make here. She decided to marry you and have your kids knowing about her lies, and knowing that three lives would be shattered when these lies came to light. She did it anyway. Which speaks to her character.


I find it useful to juxtapose these items:

For years after we were married I felt she was lying about the only kissing aspect. Honestly even though it was so long ago, it has eaten at me for years. The act doesn't matter at this point but the lie does. So she admitted she had sex with him multiple times.

Also not that this matters as much from a cheating point of view as we were not together, but she admitted she had sex with 3 different friends of mine in high school. The issue with that is during the time we started dating I asked her about her partners as we both went to a small private school together. She told me the people she had slept with and left those other guys out. So obviously not cheating, but a blatant lie.

We had a great dating relationship for about 8 months. Then we broke up over the fact that she said she only kissed a guy in spain during the start of our relationship while she was there with some friends.

Let me interject. You had good sex and unencumbered fun with a hot girl. That's not the same as a great dating relationship. She clearly wasn't viewing you as exclusive at that time.

I got into her email and found messages between her and her friends insinuating they had sex. She said that was not true. I knew she was lying based on the what the emails, but they did not specifically say that had sex, thus I had no proof. Ultimately we got back together but things were never the same from that point. There were good times and bad but never great like they were.
I knew she was lying.... I feel like there was constant tension because we were back together while just ignoring a lie. Being stupid kids we got married after another year of up and down dating. After getting married I would ask her throughout the years about the Spain thing again but she always lied up until the other night when she came clean.

She was upfront that she wanted that to get better. I would work on it for awhile and then it would lapse. I would genuinely try, but struggled with doing it consistently probably because I had never really let go of her lying. Again, at this point were both stupid young kids in our early to mid 20s who should have never gotten married.
Additionally she always wanted sex more than me. I was fine with 1 or 2 times a week. She wanted 4 or 5. She was clear though that the bigger issue wasn't the sex, but the intimacy she got from it. That satisfied her affirmation and self esteem needs.
We both discussed divorce but it never really went anywhere.
As the years progressed, the marriage just became mediocre.

I think you see the pattern and the issue. Your marriage was built on shaky foundations. In your heart, you knew she was dishonest with you from the start. Lack of trust. Without trust, how could you ever give yourself to her intimately? She wanted a more intimate, more emotionally invested relationship from you, but she was not offering that to you. Instead, she was offering only an ersatz version of herself to you, and in your heart of hearts you knew that. The withholding, the distance that you are apologizing for, that’s your heart instinctively protecting itself legitimately from the burn it knew was likely to come, the burn you are now feeling, the burn you knew was inevitable at some point in time.

By the way, was she your first and only sexual partner?

Ultimately I should have gone back to therapy with her when she asked after our daughter was born and voiced my frustrations to the therapist. Maybe a third party mediating could have kept this whole thing from happening.

No, it could not have. The fundamental problem is and always has been her chronic dishonesty with you, and your heart’s knowledge that she was being dishonest.

I feel like if I ever made it work that she never really suffered enough. She got to satisfy her needs at the expense of the family for years, then she gets me back and life is good. I know it is not a good attitude, but I feel like if we reconciled I would always feel like she got the good deal while I suffered. I know that I would have to truly forgive her which is hard enough.

This feeling is 100% normal. It is one of the reasons the majority of marriages with a cheating wife end in divorce. Do not feel guilty or dirty for the feeling. It is a legitimate, normal way to feel.

As to the kids, they thrive the best if the parents are healthy and happy as individuals. As long as you remain married to her, this feeling will be part of your emotional makeup to some degree. You think that knowing she was harboring secrets about Spain or other things in her past caused you to be a distant husband to her? How do you think carrying around resentment over the fact that she essentially defrauded you into marriage and family, or that she's been giving a paid massage douche a regular ride on the freak train, will cause you to behave as a husband if you stay together? One of the reasons you often see given my betrayed husbands for divorcing their WW’s is that they (the BH) know that they won’t be able to look at their WW with the love that the WW ought to see in a man’s eyes. In other words, one reason to let her go is because you love her.

You’re a strong candidate for primary custody of the kids in a D. She will have to pay spousal support to you. Let her live her life, and go live yours.

Keep this in mind. The residential brokerage and mortgage industry is rife with illicit sex. It’s like the medical industry in that way. People work evening and weekends. Meeting an endless stream of new people, most of whom are excited about launching a new phase of life. Alone in empty houses. It’s a potent blend of aphrodisiac elements. For your whole life, if you choose to remain married, you are going to have gnawing doubt. She said she’d be home by 7:30, but it’s now 9:00 and she’s not home. Her tracker shows her at some residential property somewhere. “Hmmm”. On a Saturday around 3:00, she gets a text and says she needs to rush to a client appointment. She showers and gets ready and rushes out of the house looking a little sexier than you expected. Three hours later she gets home and showers again, explaining that all of the rushing left her sweaty and she wants to rinse off. “Hmmm”. A closing celebration where she comes home at 2:30 a.m. smelling of booze and acting giddy. “Hmmm”. Is that really the life you want. Because it’s the life you will have if you stay with her.

Bottom line, the distance in your marriage is not your fault. In your heart of hearts, you knew she was not honest with you, and your natural response was to withdraw, to protect yourself. Even if she is now, finally, honest with you (experience here suggests that, at the very least, she is smoothing out the edges, leaving out details, in her effort to garner your sympathy and arouse your KISA tendencies), what of it? “Iceman, I lied to you to get you to marry me. I kept on lying to you about a lot of sexual stuff during our entire marriage. I’ve also cheated with other men during our entire marriage. Even while I was lying and cheating, I lied in therapy to get you to have kids with me. Now that I’m honest and you can see what a shitty person I truly am, just about as awful as any shitty character a fiction writer could dream up on a bad day, please stay married to me.”

Nope. Dude, she gave Mr. Goodhands FFM threesomes, and she paid him for it. Another of your posts suggests that there were other sexual details that are difficult. How can a marriage ever come back from that?

For the sake of your kids, end it now, early, so you can build a new normal for them while they’re still young. Your WW clearly has a profound and deeply instilled sense of self-loathing. I can see why a big part of your response is to feel sorry for her. Like other posters here, I can also sense that your KISA instinct is rearing its head. All I can do is warn you to ignore this. I love this adage: "Don't set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm." There is a strong co-dependency vibe coming from your posts.

Here's another way of looking at it. Let's assume that now, for the first time in the entire time she has known you, your WW has opened her heart and shown you all of her secrets. Let you see all of her dirty laundry. Laid all her cards on your table. Choose your metaphor. You know 100% of the unvarnished truth now. She has put herself at your mercy.

One thing you could say in response would be some version of the following: "Damn, Mrs. Iceman. you are an awful person. I can't imagine a person who is more horrible and despicable and disgusting than you. I hate you. Get out of my life forever!"

Some version of that would be wholly understandable in light of the details here, but I don't think you have that in you and, more important, I don't think it's how you feel.

However, there is another perfectly legitimate response: "Mrs. Iceman, thank you for being honest with me finally. You know I love you and there will be a part of me that always will. I empathize with your insecurity and understand your need for affirmation. I feel badly that our marriage has reached this place. I wish that you had felt you could look to me for affirmation, rather than seeking sex with other men. I understand, I think, why you did what you did, but I cannot be the one to help you with your issues. You have hurt me repeatedly, building layers of pain and injury. I have suffered for years with the paranoia and self-doubt and neurotic craziness that you have created. The injury is too deep. I cannot look at you with the unfiltered love that a marriage deserves. I have to move on, for my own sanity, and also so that I can be the best father to our children that I can be. A part of me will go with you. I gave you a part of my heart when we married, and you will always have that part, as bruised and torn as it may be from your years of lies and infidelity. I wish you the best."

Added later:

By the way, at some point your kids should know their biological parentage. It's important for their health care decisions going forward. You can figure it out now, but tell them when they're adults if that's what you choose.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:24 AM, June 3rd (Thursday)]

Marz posted 6/3/2021 08:02 AM

Stay out of the white knight syndrome. You can’t save or fix your wife. She’d have to do that.

You aren’t perfect but neither is your wife. Did her imperfections cause you to cheat on her?

Serial Cheater. Read up. Could take years of therapy with no guarantees. Plus she is a pathological liar.

Try and keep your heart out of this. It’ll betray you.

Sorry man but it seems to me for the most she’s sorry she got caught and just got a lot off her chest for her. Not you.

DNA testing should be mandatory.

[This message edited by Marz at 8:04 AM, June 3rd (Thursday)]

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