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Gender inclusive language?

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DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 06:59 AM

but if you have been raped and cannot be around a person who has a penis, then you are deep into the trauma still and need a lot of therapy.

EXACTLY! And woman IN this situation need a safe place to have THAT therapy separate from being around someone with a dick.

Dragn - what makes you think that trans women (or biological men for that matter) have not been or cannot be raped?

You KNOW i don't think that... why inflate what i am trying to say?

If a shelter or crisis centre wants to remain woman (biological) centered why should they be penalized?

There's many crisis centres out there. If one wants to focus on the struggles of biological woman why is that so bad?

Why do Transwoman have to insert themselves or take away from biological woman? I dont see any trans men complaining that they aren't allowed into biological mens support groups for prostrate cancer...

WalkinOnEggshelz posted 4/22/2021 07:14 AM

*****every post on this thread is strictly as a member*****

Dragn,

I donít see an end to this circular discussion. I admire you putting in a good fight, however you live in a different country with a different political system than ours and that may be where there is a large disconnect. I can not speak for what is going on in Canada. I donít live there. Iíve never been. I can only speak for what happens in the US and here it is grim when it comes to the basic rights of transgender people.

Much like any movement, I believe there is a lot of fear that goes with change, even when that change is positive. We fumble and make mistakes along the way. Perhaps your country is overcompensating right now. Ours is greatly undercompensating. My hope is that with time and education, we as people can come to a resolution that provides individuals (no matter of color, race, sex, or gender identity) equal opportunities.

This is all still new. Like I said, there is a lot of fear with change, but change is necessary. Basic rights are being stripped away from the LGBTQ community, including the right to healthcare.

All we are asking is for some compassion for the challenges that this community goes through. I have not met a single LGBTQ person that wants to take your rights away. I have met, however several that desire to be treated like equals, not fear for their lives to be who they are, and have access to appropriate health care.

I worry every single day I send my kid to school whether or not they will be a victim of violence, particularly with all of the shootings that happen.

You may not agree, but with a little compassion and sensitivity I hope that we get to a place that is more peaceful.


ZenMumWalking posted 4/22/2021 07:29 AM

Why do Transwoman have to insert themselves or take away from biological woman?

THIS is exactly the problem - that there are people who see this as a zero-sum game. ie, if someone else is included that is them gaining and you losing.

It would instead be useful to think about including all humans - not 'our' rights vs 'their' rights. Win-win.

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 07:47 AM

I worry every single day I send my kid to school whether or not they will be a victim of violence, particularly with all of the shootings that happen.

You may not agree, but with a little compassion and sensitivity I hope that we get to a place that is more peaceful.

I dont agree with any violence against anyone for any reason other than defence. And i may live way up North but i fear for my kids safety at school with shootings, violence and bullying too.


THIS is exactly the problem - that there are people who see this as a zero-sum game. ie, if someone else is included that is them gaining and you losing.

How are biological woman NOT losing when their right to chose who helps them through a crisis is taken away?

I am not saying trans people should be denied medical treatment of any sort. I'm saying that a woman traumatized by a male shouldn't have to sit in a room with one when doing therapy.

Perhaps your country is overcompensating

When the consequences of offending a transperson is JAIL, ya i see that as a bit much.

T/j

*****every post on this thread is strictly as a member*****

I know you write that to indicate your position but it makes me giggle. Its like when a BS types "no stop sign, BS here" on a wayward thread.

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 08:01 AM

I believe there is a lot of fear that goes with change

Question:

How do you address the valid fear of biological woman of males dressing as a woman to gain access to a womans washroom for the soul purpose of assaulting a biological woman?

Yes we still have gender specific washrooms up here. And yes there a males with fucked up minds that could take this as an opportunity to get access when they wouldn't otherwise be able to.

There is a couple in a town close by. Both males but transwoman. I didn't know they were a couple until i heard them natter at each other like an old married couple in a store lol. Before that i had only seen one of them around town, usually in the coffee shop. Having been assaulted and raped by a man much larger than myself when i walked into the washroom and saw the 6 foot obviously a male i left and waited until she left. Doesnt make me transphobic, makes me being careful of my own safety.

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 08:15 AM

There's many crisis centres out there. If one wants to focus on the struggles of biological woman why is that so bad?

No one has answered this.

A transwoman couldn't understand the physical damage done to the biological female during a violent rape unless they have had surgery, which i believe someone said many don't do.

So again i ask what is wrong with a place wanting to address the struggles of biological woman?

ZenMumWalking posted 4/22/2021 08:45 AM

So again i ask what is wrong with a place wanting to address the struggles of biological woman?

Nothing. But why should the government pay for it?

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 08:50 AM

Why should the government pay for any services to anyone then?

Because we as taxpayers pay them.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/22/2021 09:39 AM

How do you address the valid fear of biological woman of males dressing as a woman to gain access to a womans washroom for the soul purpose of assaulting a biological woman?
How do you address the valid fear that a trans person will be beaten up for going into the "correct" washroom while wearing makeup and a dress? Or be reported as a man going into a women's washroom? I know several trans men that you would never suspect are not packing a penis. So if a thirtysomething year old dude with a beard and tattoos follows you into the bathroom, would you feel less threatened? Are you going to ask him if he has a vagina? Or is he just not supposed to pee at all, because he looks too much like a man to use the ladies room and has the wrong equipment to use the men's?

Just because you feel threatened by someone doesn't mean you get to exclude them when they did nothing wrong.

ZenMumWalking posted 4/22/2021 09:39 AM

Why should the government pay for any services to anyone then?

The government should support services for the universal good. (imho)

It could be argued that services that discriminate based on certain qualities should not be supported by the government. It could also be argued that gender identity could be one of these qualities (as could biological sex). However, including individuals who identify as a particular gender does not exclude people who identify both as that gender and as that biological sex.

Just because a biological woman would not WANT to avail herself of a service if a transgender woman could also avail herself of that same service does not mean that biological women are EXCLUDED from that service.

There's a difference between those two things, whether you choose to see it or not.

Think of it like this: should the government support a rape crisis center for heterosexual women who have been raped by a man, but not for homosexual woment who have been raped by a man, since it MIGHT make SOME heterosexual women 'uncomfortable'? Or is this a form of unlawful discrimination?

If you prefer to get therapy or resources from a discriminatory environment, that is your choice. You can pay for it though, not the government.

We pay taxes for the common good, not for all of our personal wants or (perceived) needs.

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 10:11 AM

Just because you feel threatened by someone doesn't mean you get to exclude them when they did nothing wrong.

The solution to the washroom problem is to eliminate urinals and make full stalls that everyone can use. But yes i do have the right to question anyone who looks like a male walking in behind me. Woman are raped all the time. Each and every woman has a right to make sure they are safe.

Think of it like this: should the government support a rape crisis center for heterosexual women who have been raped by a man, but not for homosexual woment who have been raped by a man, since it MIGHT make SOME heterosexual women 'uncomfortable'? Or is this a form of unlawful discrimination?

A heterosexual biological woman and a homosexual biological woman have the same parts, experience the same physical trauma...a transgender woman will not experience the same physical trauma that a biological woman will.

Why can you not see that the trauma of a rape affects some woman to not want to be in the presence of anyone with a physical body that hurt them?

We are supposed to be empathetic to trauma and PTSD victims yet you are doing the opposite. Insisting a trauma victim be exposed to that which caused her trauma, regardless if that person is a physical threat, to these woman it feels that way.

Its not discrimination if the same services are still offered in another environment. The trans victim isn't denied treatment or therapy.

I can chose to have either a male or female doctor (family doctor) does that mean i am discriminating against one? No its personal preference and who I feel comfortable with.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/22/2021 10:21 AM

But yes i do have the right to question anyone who looks like a male walking in behind me. Woman are raped all the time. Each and every woman has a right to make sure they are safe.
No. No, you do not, because their possession of a penis does not mean you are unsafe. Peeing is not an inherently threatening behavior. You do not have the right to invade their privacy, any more than you can tell a black person that they have to leave because your rapist was black.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:27 AM, April 22nd (Thursday)]

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 10:33 AM

I would question anyone who came up into my personal space. Anyone!

I do this in the supermarket all the time, ok did this. With covid Most people keep apart but i have had people right up into MY space. In those situations I've either asked them to step back or put my cart between me and them.

I also have been told by an officer that i have the right to request a female officer if I'm stopped, especially at night by an unmarked car. Thats not discriminating, thats making ones safety a priority.

EllieKMAS posted 4/22/2021 10:42 AM

How does wanting to use gender inclusive language translate to rape centers are only for biological women?

A transwoman, bottom surgeried or not can absolutely be raped and thusly IMHO is welcome to avail themselves of any crisis centers that help rape victims. Men can be (and are) raped. Transmen can be (and are) raped.

Why would we not want to offer the same services to all rape VICTIMS, regardless of identified or biological gender? The psychological impact of that is devastating no matter who it is.

Why do Transwoman have to insert themselves or take away from biological woman?
Why would you feel like your biological 'womanness' is somehow invalidated or depleted by a transwoman?

BraveSirRobin posted 4/22/2021 10:43 AM

But the washroom is not your personal space. If they followed you into your stall, that would be intrusive and inappropriate behavior that you'd have a right to challenge. You don't stand in the door of the grocery and tell people they can't come in. You'd get arrested if you tried.

ZenMumWalking posted 4/22/2021 10:45 AM

A heterosexual biological woman and a homosexual biological woman have the same parts, experience the same physical trauma...a transgender woman will not experience the same physical trauma that a biological woman will.

That's an assumption on your part. And you are missing my point (intentionally??).

Why can you not see that the trauma of a rape affects some woman to not want to be in the presence of anyone with a physical body that hurt them?

I do see that, you are misunderstanding what I have said.

How are biological woman NOT losing when their right to chose who helps them through a crisis is taken away?

You ARE free to choose. If you want to choose a government-funded facility, you will have to accept that it will be non-discriminatory. If you don't want that, you can choose a private facility. And pay for it. YOUR choice.

We are supposed to be empathetic to trauma and PTSD victims yet you are doing the opposite. Insisting a trauma victim be exposed to that which caused her trauma, regardless if that person is a physical threat, to these woman it feels that way.

No, I'm not. I don't INSIST that trauma victims present in any particular environment. All I am saying is that IF a victim wishes to have therapy in a discriminatory, exclusive environment they can have it without expecting the government to support them in that. I can see why the government would shy away from funding a discriminatory organization. Why can't you?

No one here (that I can see) is saying that you are REQUIRED to be present with biological men for therapy or treatment of any kind. If you prefer treatment in a biological female environment, get it in a private setting where this kind of discrimination might be permitted. Expecting that kind of discrimination as a PUBLIC SERVICE is what I think is proving so divisive.

I get that you have rape ptsd. Did you know that I have too? I have been able to deal with this with my (male) psychiatrist. My son still has ptsd from his gang-rape a few years ago. He has had both male and female therapists. He has managed not to have fear of individuals in a therapy-based environment. Perhaps that could help you too. Perhaps instead of focusing on an individual's penis (ie, differences) you could consider focusing on what you have in common.

Grasping so tightly to your pain is not helping you. I wish that you could see this so that your healing can continue on a good path!!

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 10:47 AM, April 22nd (Thursday)]

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 10:49 AM

Why would you feel like your biological 'womanness' is somehow invalidated or depleted by a transwoman?

Making all washrooms gender neutral AND removing all feminine hygiene products IS taking away from woman.

Why would we not want to offer the same services to all rape VICTIMS, regardless of identified or biological gender? The psychological impact of that is devastating no matter who it is.

The psychological impact of forcing a biological woman to sit in a room with a male is just as devastating.

I am going to agree to disagree and step away. I have online learning to assist with (damn chromebooks keep disconnecting from the wifi), kids are all yelling for me from different rooms, there's a blizzard outside amd i still have farm chores to do plus a trailer coming.


DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 10:50 AM

Sorry Zen we posted at the same time. Ill reply to you later. Kids yelling for me. Omg. I hate online learning!!!

EllieKMAS posted 4/22/2021 10:52 AM

How do you address the valid fear of biological woman of males dressing as a woman to gain access to a womans washroom for the soul purpose of assaulting a biological woman?
I can't think of a single example I have ever heard of of this ever having happened. I mean.... if a dude is gonna rape someone, I just don't think they are gonna care about putting on a wig and a dress - not to mention that there isn't some special vagina scan to gain access to a public women's bathroom. Public restrooms are accessible to anyone (says me who has once upon a couple times used the men's room at a bar when the women's line was a mile long and I was about to pee myself). So, just MHO, but this doesn't really seem like a valid fear to me.

ZenMumWalking posted 4/22/2021 11:00 AM

'Beloved children, mommy needs a moment now.'

Then grab your bottle of wine, headphones and go soak in a tub (with the door locked)!!

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