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Gender inclusive language?

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DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 16:11 PM

Why must they include gender when teaching about biological reproduction then if gender and sex is so separate?

The fact is that you must be a biological female in order to have a baby grown inside you. That's not wrong. Theres no problem teaching the specific biological way things are, using the correct biological terminology AND including gender identity in sex ed in school. But they are two separate things. So keep them as two separate things.

And yes at present. Pretty sure the technology will come when babies will be cooked up in some test tube from sperm in egg to ready to be birthed.

That is IF we dont all die from covid first.

Again had to fix word...

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 4:12 PM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

ZenMumWalking posted 4/20/2021 16:26 PM

And yes at present. Pretty sure the technology will come when babies will be cooked up in some test tube from sperm in egg to ready to be birthed.

Yea, they have grown mouse embryos in artificial wombs....

I agree that reproduction is only tangentially related to gender (ie, you need to have the right plumbing and it needs to work properly, and this plumbing may or may not match your gender), and that gender should be taught in a relationships and sex course, along with anti-bullying education.

ff4152 posted 4/20/2021 16:39 PM

You CAN have an opinion about the need for gender-inclusive speech.

And this is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

sewardak posted 4/20/2021 16:51 PM

Itís very simple, I do not believe gender is malleable. I believe a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Like DragnHeart stated, a man cannot give birth to a child. A man doesnít have ovaries. Likewise, women do not have penises or a prostate. Thatís a biological fact.

gender = between your head
biology = between your legs


DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 18:46 PM

and that gender should be taught in a relationships and sex course, along with anti-bullying education.

Not to quote a book or anything but of everyone was just to live by the "don't do anything to anyone you wouldn't want done to yourself" we wouldn't have this problem.

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 19:13 PM

So this just popped up on my news feed.

"New Jersey fourth state to offer gender neutral birth certificates".

How is that not ridiculous? What right do parents have to define their child as gender neutral when they are incapable of making that choice themselves.

This is i think what was referred to earlier. Children should not be altered from their biological sex until they are of age to make that choice but i can see that being more common. Take away any biological identity then press the medical community to do hormone therapy on younger and younger boys and girls.

Its to much of a slippery slope for me.

I did not pierce my daughters ears. Its their choice to have earrings.

I didnt insist on growth hormone treatment for dd until SHE was old enough to understand and make the choice for herself.

I didnt force any "beliefs" on my children.

I would never have identified them as gender neutral when they have a biological identity which actually plays a HUGE roll in dd's growth treatment.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/20/2021 20:00 PM

How is that not ridiculous? What right do parents have to define their child as gender neutral when they are incapable of making that choice themselves.
The law allows people to self-identify as gender neutral and makes it easier for them to change the gender identity on their birth certificate. Previously, transgender people have encountered a lot of red tape designed to make such updates difficult. For example, in order for my son to get a driver's license that shows him as male, he first had to get his gender changed on his birth certificate. In our state, his father and I could do that by signing the back of the certificate under "corrections" in the presence of a notary. If he was over 18, or was born out of state, he would need a court order. Not all judges are friendly to the request, and some of them enjoy making trans people uncomfortable in front of a courtroom of onlookers. After that, the applicant must take the birth certificate to get the gender changed on their social security card. This process is also necessary to legally change name and gender in school and medical records. To get his passport changed, we needed a letter signed by a physician that he was either in treatment for gender reassignment (good for a 2 year passport) or had completed treatment (good for 4 years). This is an improvement on the prior law, which required that the applicant have surgery before changing genders. Not all trans people want surgery.

This topic has far reaching consequences that go well beyond calling Bob, Sue. Especially when puberty blockers and life altering surgery on children come into play.
I only wish my son had come out as trans in time to get puberty blockers. It would have prevented the need for top surgery because those female secondary sex characteristics wouldn't have developed. He'd have had a chance at more height, something I'm sure you understand is a very big deal in a kid's self-image. He will now unavoidably be quite short for a man. For male-to-female trans kids, blockers can prevent development of facial hair, broadening shoulders, deepening voice, and undesired height. They're a godsend for outcomes that reduce dysphoria and improve mental health.

Loukas posted 4/20/2021 20:09 PM

BSR, if there is one thing you and I may never agree on, itís puberty blockers being a godsend. There are countless stories of regret that came from their destruction. In 10 years, there will be even more. So maybe, just maybe it might have been a helpful solution for your son, but there are folks that exist on the other side of the story. Those stories are suppressed in todayís ďinclusiveĒ world.

It wasnít all that long ago I read a post of yours about zero sum. If there was ever a topic that canít be reduced to zero sum, this is it.

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 20:09 PM

But it shouldn't be up to the parent to define their child as gender neutral. Why take away their biological identity for a "maybe" situation later on. There is no guarentee the child will be trans.

I understand the headaches of changing official paperwork and documentation but this feels like a movement to eliminate biological identity instead of just wanting to be included.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/20/2021 20:46 PM

BSR, if there is one thing you and I may never agree on, itís puberty blockers being a godsend. There are countless stories of regret that came from their destruction.
Puberty blockers are just that, blockers. They are a temporary and reversible pause button. If you stop taking them, puberty resumes its course. Hormone therapy, however, can create irreversible changes in body development.

The countless stories I'm familiar with are suicide attempts. They are very common among trans people who live in environments that oppose and prevent their transition. Kids who have supportive parents have healthier, more successful long term outcomes. Did I worry about my kid having regrets later on? Of course I worried about that. I'm not nearly as worried about it as I was by what was happening before we got a transition plan in place. Three different teams of psychologists agree that this is the only viable course of action for him.

I'm also confused by this idea that parents are shoving their kids towards surgery. I can't understand where that's coming from. It is an incredibly long, arduous process to meet all the psychological, medical, and organizational requirements to book gender confirmation surgery, especially for a minor. My son wanted it from the age of 13, and even if I hadn't told him "hell, no, not at your age," there is no fucking way any surgeon I know of would have performed it. Four years later, at age 17, it's still hard to get it approved.

Loukas posted 4/20/2021 21:11 PM

There is no such as a pause button in life. And even if there was, it would come with consequences. Something puberty blockers are riddled with. Nothing in this life is all pros, but to be accepted within the trans community, we are supposed to pretend as though thatís all there is. So argue on behalf of the community all you want, BSR, truly, more power to you. My only hope is that those who argue against the destruction, are offered the same respect, because there are two sides to every story. That is being inclusive.

Last thing I ever wanted was to be caught in this shit show of a thread. Life is so much more than one way of thinking.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/20/2021 21:21 PM

But it shouldn't be up to the parent to define their child as gender neutral. Why take away their biological identity for a "maybe" situation later on. There is no guarentee the child will be trans.
Honestly, it seems to me like the best solution is to take gender off the birth certificate altogether. What purpose does it serve, really? Same sex marriage is legal in all 50 states. It's not legal to discriminate in housing, employment, travel, etc due to gender. What else do you need to produce a birth certificate for? Why does anyone need to know what sex organs you have? They aren't useful for identity purposes. No one at the liquor store is going to look at your license and ask you to drop trou to prove it's really you.

In all my years as a cisgender woman, no one has ever asked to see my birth certificate to prove I'm a girl. I wouldn't feel like less of a girl if it wasn't on there.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/20/2021 21:27 PM

I talk with the generations older than myself frequently, and the topic of transgenderism comes up from time to time. To this day, none of those Iíve spoken too, or myself have heard of a transgender in our communities.
So where are you getting these countless stories of tragic outcomes from puberty blockers?

Lionne posted 4/20/2021 21:33 PM

My son and daughter in law are expecting a baby. They will know the biology in mid May.
They are searching for names that are gender neutral. Their reasons are practical, she's in the construction field and often has men refusing to speak with her, or treating her like an imbecile instead of respecting her competency. But we have a large number of acquaintances who are gender fluid, or Trans or any other variation. That may have guided that decision too.

I have mental trouble with the idea of a 6 year old knowing their gender doesn't match their biology. I suspect parents of these kids must be very careful and clearly more knowledgeable than I. I certainly bow to superior knowledge in this area, and I'd never say it is impossible or immoral or wrong. It just is. I've had 2 children in my teaching career who stated they were "trans" in other words. One parent chose to dress the child in very gender neutral clothing, the other dressed as a boy, matching the biology. I wish I knew how they grew up, both interesting, kind and charming children.

That birth certificate advance is wonderful. What difference does it make to a bureaucracy?

Oh, and as usual Bigger sets us straight. What bravery indeed to be openly different.

WornDown posted 4/20/2021 21:49 PM

If we are supposed to "respect" a persons decision to be viewed as they "identify as," why is it ok for a man to identify as a woman (and vice versa), but not for a white person to identify as black/colored?

Loukas posted 4/20/2021 21:50 PM

So where are you getting these countless stories of tragic outcomes from puberty blockers?
Where do you think? And if you had any interest in finding them yourself, you would, itís really not that hard. With that, Iím honestly out.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/20/2021 22:02 PM

Where do you think? And if you had any interest in finding them yourself, you would, itís really not that hard.
I did look. Of course I did. I'm not putting my kid on meds without doing research. And frankly, those stories were very rare and almost exclusively promoted by groups with non-scientific agendas.

If I have opinions on life in your tiny cluster of Canadian villages because I read about them on the internet, I'm entitled to those opinions. But are my opinions equivalent in weight to your experience, having grown up there with the people and in that culture? Am I equally informed and credible as you? Do you want me telling people what it's like to live there or trying to influence local regulations?

Conversely, since I know at least 20 people personally who are/were on blockers, in addition to undergoing consults with eight different physicians trained in gender affirmation hormonal therapy, are we on an equal footing here? Am I required to give credence to your views on trans medicine when you've openly admitted that neither you nor any of your elders have ever met a trans person?

I may have opinions on how to build an airplane, but I'm betting you'd rather fly in one that was designed by an aeronautical engineer.

Loukas posted 4/20/2021 23:35 PM

Ok, then. Letís keep going in this circle. But before I start, Iíd like to point out, that not once have I denied the existence of your son or transgender people. I havenít denied the struggles they face and challenges they take on. My only message has been, there is more to the story then what is being presented. And inclusivity is nothing more than a cop out.

So to the non-scientific agenda comment: For those who werenít aware, puberty blockers arenít FDA approved for use in delaying gender dysphoria. They were approved for children who enter puberty far too early.
The NHS over in the UK has finally ended offering puberty blockers to children under the age of 16. The only possibility for a youth to get puberty blockers now is by judge approval. It wasnít until a lawsuit that the NHS made this decision.
There are no in depth studies on the long term effects of puberty blockers on children. There known consequences and side effects. But the scientific community still hasnít taken the time to actually study what may or may not be wrong here. So all we have is anecdotal stories and for now, thatís better than nothing.

As for our experiences: I never said I havenít meet a trans person. I did say, for all of time, there were none, then all of a sudden there were 7. So the question becomes, were they socially created or hiding all along? Our communities have always had the extremely rare intersex members. They werenít hidden, closeted or committing suicide, they just lived along side us. So Iím not saying gender dysphoria doesnít exist, but to go from 0 trans people over remembered history to 7 in a single school, well alarm bells are ringing. Rightfully so, considering the life altering consequences.

As for your experience, did you seek out negative stories? Were you interested in hearing from those who might challenge what you want to believe. Do you know a single trans person who de-transitioned? I used to do millwork and cabinetry for a LGBT organization in the city not far from my community. Fortunately, I was able to ask questions and receive input for my ignorance. My biggest take away from the experience was there was no one size fits all answer. A message that is all too often lost in todayís zero sum game.

And finally, you can have all the opinions you want about an airplane. You could even build one. But just like any plane, Iíd prefer it follow proper rigorous testing by those who know they are a testing a prototype, before loading it with kids.

So are we allowed to have different opinions yet? Or do we have to go in a few more circles?

[This message edited by Loukas at 11:55 PM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 4/21/2021 00:07 AM

As for your experience, did you seek out negative stories?
Absolutely. I read everything I could find, positive and negative.
Were you interested in hearing from those who might challenge what you want to believe.
I had no idea what I wanted to believe. I didn't want to lose the child I bore, named, and raised. I didn't want that child to be suffering in a deep, black, dysphoric depression. The only thing I was looking for was a greater understanding of my baby's struggle and how I could best support her in alleviating it. I discovered that I couldn't support her because I needed to support him. That certainly wasn't the answer I was looking for when I started out. I was utterly blindsided.
Do you know a single trans person who de-transitioned?
No. I know several who shifted to nonbinary, and a few who went from NB to an affirmed gender, but I never met anyone who wanted to go back to their cis gender, or at least not exclusively. This wasn't confirmation bias; it literally just never happened to anyone I knew. It is extremely rare that the trans person themselves has regrets. That might be shifting now that trans is getting mainstream, but until very recently, there was a huge and almost universal stigma against transitioning in the first place. The cost of entry was enormous, and people generally didn't come out until they felt they had no other choice for staying sane. I did see a lot of regrets from parents and groups with philosophical and religious objections to transitioning, as well as a lot of understandable pain from parents who were grieving the loss of the gender identity of the kid they knew.
So are we allowed to have different opinions yet?
We've always been allowed to have different opinions, but before you cast yourself as the victim of oppression here, let's go over the "respectful" comments on this thread from your side of the debate.
Then I was asked what gender I go by. I was absolutely disgusted by this line of questioning for just a doctors visit. The world is turning into a shithole.
Fortunately, you get to decide how much you want to perpetuate the craziness.
in a medical situation/setting saying "The pregnant man" is just stupid.
Don't be ridiculous.
the whole idea of gender fluid, non binary whatever is sheer nonsense.
I'll still think of pregnant people as weird, though.
How is that not ridiculous?
I let this go on for quite a while before I got my back up.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 1:07 AM, April 21st (Wednesday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 4/21/2021 00:58 AM

As for puberty blockers not being FDA approved, most antidepressants aren't approved for use by adolescents, either, and for more concerning reasons than puberty blockers. The reason that psychiatrists sometimes prescribe them anyway is that they see more psychiatric harm in withholding them than they do in using and monitoring them. Over time, kids on blockers are building a pool of reassuring data. Careful use of antidepressants saved my son's life, and hormone treatment ranks right behind that.

The NHS discontinued blocker support not due to alarming medical data, but on the belief that children under 16 aren't capable of giving informed consent for their own treatment. Parents are not allowed to consent on their behalf, either. If the FDA enacted a similar policy here, it would be life threatening for my kid, as opposed to mild side effects and the potential for maybe/someday/unknown consequences.

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