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perception vs. truth

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DBFool2019 posted 4/14/2021 06:16 AM

She was vague about sexual details but said it began in early February. AP insisted it be in my house as often as they could manage. She said that his ‘ultimate thrill’ was to humiliate me.

Well, what gal could resist a guy who wanted to get off on humiliating the most wonderful man she had ever met, and who she was going to marry? What comes across time and again in your wife’s actions is that she enjoys doing forbidden things, and taking risks by doing it right in front of the victim.

She gets off on the deception and taboo of it.

That is why she started flirting with you when she was engaged to the previous guy, who she cheated on multiple times. She loves fooling people. And that is a very bad sign in any prospective life-partner.

She compounds that by saying:

Remarkably, her Big Argument was as follows: that she acknowledges that infidelity is ‘in her blood’ (not sure whether a reference to ‘bloodline’ or ‘DNA’—perhaps both are true), yet … yet … that she was 100% excited and prepared to put all of that behind her because I am ‘the perfect man’.

Her twisted logic was that by having this affair, it would ‘purge’ her of all the ‘demons’ and would ‘cleanse’ her in preparation for a fully committed life with me. She said that the hugest appeal to this affair was her quiet loathing of this man (the one who apparently makes her feel ‘safe and secure’?!) and that, combined with his sick desire to humiliate me, the self-disgust generated from her choice to be with him would finally purge her of her 'last itch’ to cheat.

If that is the way her mind works, she has more problems than she realizes. And if she knew she had problems, and needed to ‘cleanse’ herself and purge her ‘demons’, why did she not seek therapy instead of a tawdry affair with the husband of a friend who wanted to humiliate you?

That is like trying to purge yourself of violent fantasies by going on a killing spree.

The truth is, if she really thought it was so messed up, and she really had loathing for the guy, she would not have done it. She did it because she gets off on doing ‘bad’ things, and it is significant that both she and her Dad are fond of pseudo-religious references to God-like power, purging, demons, etc. Both of them are deeply manipulative people.

M1965 nails it. You're a good man, she is not a good woman. Run away!!

rugswept posted 4/14/2021 07:13 AM

It's surprising how forthcoming she was in her letter about the events and the motivations (how thrilled she was and how that POSOM wanted to humiliate you).

And, she admits that she fucked him in your bed and did God knows what else.

With the above, it's clear this went a long ways down the pike of permanent irreversible damage. It's so bad when they go hand in hand, arm in arm and play to the fantasies of sick cheaters to get the BS explicitly.

I'm big on R, but hopefully this M is finished.

I can see the possibility of a restart based on how you feel and what she does, after the D. But that is up to you. You are totally justified in dropping her off in the nearest ditch and never looking back.

Good luck with this mess. We hope you recover. After that letter you'll most likely be reeling for at least weeks, probably months.

midnightschild99 posted 4/14/2021 07:21 AM

I think her letter is a weird combination of self reflection and more manipulation. I hope you aren't tempted to reflect on your high standards. High standards are a good thing.

Has she offered to put out another social media post within your former wedding group that she lied, cheated and made false accusations against you?

Freeme posted 4/14/2021 07:48 AM

It’s already been pointed out that her MO is to flatter her fiance and talk bad about the OM. It worked several times with the last guy. I wonder if her last fiancee hear...

Her twisted logic was that by having this affair, it would ‘purge’ her of all the ‘demons’ and would ‘cleanse’ her in preparation for a fully committed life with me.

I don't like all of the blameshifting. She talks about the OM starting it, him wanting to humiliate you, him saying it's one last fling... She doesn't focus on how she went along with it or arranged it or even played much of a part.-- She isn’t remorseful.
I also don’t like how little she menchions the OBS. This was her good friend. She’s married to the OM. She has small children. She says it all started because she wanted to “help” her friend… and she ends up totally obliterating the marriage “for a last fling.” It makes me think she has no concept of marriage or vows. Your WF doesn't seem nieve, I think she knew what she was getting into at that first coffee, that first dinner party, that first date... she's done this plenty of times before.

During a job interview when they ask you to name one fault, the “standard/joke” reply is that I work too hard, I’m too much of a perfectionist, I have too high of standards, I have too much integrity,. This is also what everyone is looking for in the dating world. It’s her perfect excuse. She’s not actually dissing you but… if weren’t for those high standards and integrity… you would forgive her.
She’s admitting she made mistakes but that you not accepting that she is flawed is your problem...Blaming you for being too good. Maybe you are a perfectionist but she knew that going in. She knew that when she said yes to the engagment, she's known that for a very long time. She could have talked to you about it. She could have broken up with you... has had many choices.

The problem is that she took things way to far. She showed no morals, no integrity, she was abusive in how she handled the affair (sex in the house where you pay all expenses). The person she chose to have the affair with (married, her good friend with small kids). The way she handled D-day. Trashing you to friends and continuing the relationship ... No remorse.

On a final note have you gotten the ring back? If you haven’t it’s because she is still in her own little world thinking only of herself. She wants to keep it. That letter would have so much better if she had given you the ring back and stated she was going to work on herself. That she understands that she broke all of the meaning and promises behind the ring and that she doesn’t deserve it. Instead she’s keeping it because she doesn’t want to give up on the marriage… no matter what you say or how you feel about it. She is not remorseful and she’s not focused on you and your feelings.

Another thing to think about is that she didn't admit to anything that she didn't think you already knew. You told her that a PI was tailing her after the dinner party. So this is where she says it began. She probably suspects you have information on them being at your house often...she doesn't give many details... just what she suspects you already know. They could have been much further along in the relationship at the dinner party.

I agree that you should show the OBS the letter but that you should acknowledge that it probably contains blameshifting and lies. (maybe hold back the you/her sexual parts) It might help you both create a timeline and better understanding of how things unfolded.

Your doing great. Please, please, please don't go back with her. You should be with someone so much better.

[This message edited by Freeme at 6:59 AM, April 15th (Thursday)]

grubs posted 4/14/2021 08:19 AM

She started off with a lie. WS always only try to admit to only what is already known. This had been going on for months before the dinner party. She was involved and comfortable enough to rearrange the seating so the could play handsome footsies under the table. For such a long letter she sure didn't spend much time on accepting the blame or what really caused her to throw it all away. Blame shifting to OM, genetics, your high standards was the bulk of the letter. I doubt she'll ever be a safe partner for anyone.

Westway posted 4/14/2021 08:32 AM

Other than that (!), she said that she is now going to live at her parents’ indefinitely. She said she is going to undergo therapy for the first time in her life. She said she is going to write me a letter at the end of every month to update me on her progress. She said that she is going to win me back, but only on my (Absolon’s) terms. She said that my cutting her off, in the way I have, has made her realize how much she truly loves and wants me, and is devastated by her actions.


My coffee shot out my nose when I read this. So what, she is going to become a nun? She's going to huttle in her parent's cold dark house, forlorn and forgotten, pining away for you until she dies pitiful and alone from guilt and despair? Yeah right!

I guaran-fucking-tee you she already has other guys lined up to bang as we speak. She has no intention of waiting for you. Narcissists like her cannot survive without attention. It is impossible for her not to be sucking the life energy out of one or more men around her.

What a joke!

[This message edited by Westway at 8:34 AM, April 14th (Wednesday)]

Robert22205https posted 4/14/2021 08:37 AM

Among other things, people that cheat are (in the context of a relationship): selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lack empathy for their partner.

That's 'who' she is and there's no quick fix. It's more like an addiction that they will struggle with their entire life.

Your WF has been exposed to the public as a serial cheater. She and her father are now in massive damage control of her and the family's reputation.

IMO that's their primary motivation (not love or admiration for you). IMO they see you as more of a possession (something others will envy) not as a person.

She's going to therapy so the next guy will hear the story that she went to therapy and was cured of a genetic disease. That way when she meets the next guy she can confess up front and declare that she's now a safe partner.

So what do you do now?

1 - Follow other's advice to play along until you get your ring back.

2- Then distance yourself and go 100% NC and silent.

3 - Don't say or do anything further to poke the bear (her rich & powerful father).

4- Do not open any monthly letters.
Return them unopened.

5 - Do not discuss the break up anymore with anyone other than your immediate family (so nothing negative about the WF gets leaked back to her father).

Finally, she's not really interested in you. She's just in damage control and will soon get bored and move on/find another victim.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 8:39 AM, April 14th (Wednesday)]

jb3199 posted 4/14/2021 13:03 PM


I'm sure that her letter has, at least initially, thrown you for a loop. I hope that you have recollected your thoughts, and can see this letter for what it truly is.

As you can tell, various members have been able to dissect this letter in pretty good detail. I'm certain that you are a very analytical person, and if you can remove your emotions(at least temporarily) from your sensibility, this letter makes several contradictions. ESPECIALLY being that you talked to her ex-fiance.

I wanted to add this:

The WF “says” the AP wanted to “humiliate” the betrayed by having sex in their bed.
However it could be completely the opposite and the WF had the idea to do this. Just to be a further b!tc$ in this case.

I’m just sayin...

I thought the same thing. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the 'humiliation' aspect came from....or at the very minimum....was co-conspired by her. She wasted ZERO TIME and had ZERO CONCERN about posting on social media to the wedding group that you were an abusive person. That cut seemed to hurt you the most---to make not only a total fabrication, but to slander your character and integrity. Why wouldn't she get some more 'digs' in by turning on her AP more by 'humiliating' you.

As a note: I put the word humiliation in quotes only to describe their intention. In no way, shape, or form could they humiliate you in the eyes of everyone else. Two people of such low moral character may be able to think that they were humiliating you, but the truth is it is just the opposite---they are the humiliated couple who are almost pitied for their levels of depravity, while you are looked at by others in the highest regard.

justastatistic posted 4/14/2021 13:49 PM

Please stick with your decision to cut off this relationship and move on. There were so many red flags in that letter indicating some serious mental issues in your WF that are unlikely to be fixed. Personally, if I were in your position with the knowledge I have gained from dealing with someone like this, I would write her a letter telling her it is over and if she sent me another letter I would consider it harassment and report it to the authorities. It's best just to walk away and end it decisively.

Also, I would let the OBS see the letter as well.

Sceadugenga posted 4/14/2021 14:11 PM

As a note: I put the word humiliation in quotes only to describe their intention. In no way, shape, or form could they humiliate you in the eyes of everyone. Two people of such low moral character may be able to think that they were humiliating you, but the truth is it is just the opposite---they are the humiliated couple who are almost pitied for their levels of depravity, while you are looked at by others in the highest regard.

They are both "damaged goods", each in their own respective way.

Him: There indeed seems to be a whole sub-category of cheaters (of both genders) often called "spouse poachers". They appear to operate from the basis of low self-esteem and in order to self-regulate and boost their ego, they seduce other people's mates. The twisted logic behind it goes along the lines of "I must be so much better than the shmuck whose wife I'm boinking, otherwise she wouldn't give herself to me".

Her: She may well be suffering from a unique sub-set of "daddy issues". Seeing her father cheat on the mother was probably an emotional trauma which distorted her vision of what healthy relationships between men and women are. She (rightly) perceived her father's infidelity as abandonment of his wife, his family and, more importantly, herself as his daughter. As a result she may have a deep seated mistrust and contempt for men. Each new partner symbolically becomes her father, whom she "punishes" by humiliating him with her infidelity. (See? The tables have now turned, "Daddy"!)

She might not even be aware of her modus operandi which means she's bound to repeat the pattern until her good looks and seductiveness pass with time and one day she finds her last victim, who she "settles for" and whom she'll torment for the rest of her days, becoming your old-battle-axe of next door neighbour.

You, on the other hand, can stand tall and proud, because chances are that by the time it happens, you'll have long become her "one that got away".

We sometimes mistakenly believe that we marry our spouse, not their family. It's sadly only partly true, because we indeed marry all the baggage of emotional issues which may have run in the said family for generations. Through no fault of your own, you have found yourself on the receiving end of the infamous inter-generational trauma transfer.

guvensiz posted 4/14/2021 16:29 PM

Other members made very good points. I will not repeat them, but I would like to state that I strongly agree with them and will add a few things.

I think she should go to the police and report that she was raped. Because her last action of her own will was to tell a firm "no" to the AP. She had no share in what happened later.

Comparison with AP and other exes is so weird. There was a car advertisement slogan; "This is the best until we will make the better one". She is already explaining what she will do when she finds someone she thinks is better than you. You are not a contestant. In addition, it should not be forgotten that in terms of giving an idea about the future, Mike Tyson was also knocked out and Usain Bolt was passed.

The timeline of her story didn't seem very realistic to me. Just a few hours after saying firm no, sitting between her friend and AP and playing footsies and holding hands with him, but waiting a month (or some more) for a kiss and after that waiting 3 months for sex; it looks like it started very quickly and slowed down, not very convincing. Moreover, during November and December they dream of having sex on a joint vacation with you as if they had to go on vacation to do this. Probably they were having sex at that time too.

Regarding the issue of high moral standard; for someone who cheats on her fiancee with the husband of her friend with little kids, any moral standard would be high.

She said that my cutting her off, in the way I have, has made her realize how much she truly loves and wants me, and is devastated by her actions.

And starting R with her will make her realize how she cheated on everyone she was with and hadn't face the consequences.

This has nothing to do with love. It is the first time that an incident has come out of her control and she can't stand it. She may even be thinking about breaking up after getting back together. Even if she does not think so, it is not unlikely that she will think in the future.

I hope the views of the posters here have been useful to you and your being so right does not encourage you to enter into any engagement with your WF. NC needs to continue strongly. If you have to contact with her, you can say in one sentence that what you expect from her is not the letter, but the ring back.

LightningCrashes posted 4/14/2021 19:12 PM

M1965 eloquently and perfectly summarized the situation. Excellent observations and statements and advice. Worthy of re-reading many times.

Buffer posted 4/15/2021 01:17 AM

Well so far brother you are doing a very good job looking after yourself.
Just let us know how the second coffee goes with OBS.
One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 7:46 PM, April 16th (Friday)]

HouseOfPlane posted 4/15/2021 08:48 AM

I think she should go to the police and report that she was raped
I think that's the worst advice I've ever read here.

You're on a good path, Absolon. Stay the course.

Sending strength!

Absolon posted 4/15/2021 10:52 AM

I certainly have some good news to report, but before doing so I wanted to do something I haven’t done yet and respond directly to a variety of posters.

So, to …

@Nekonamida: Thank you for reminding me that all such decisions to cheat are 50/50 equally, between the wayward and the AP.

@Chamomile: Excellent insight and advice on retrieving the ring. More on that very soon.

@M1965: Obviously an astonishing (in a good way) post. Your forensic analysis, showing a knowledge of each of my posts, was devastating in its ability to shed a transforming light on earlier details that I had forgotten (such as my WF’s seating arrangement) and therefore hammering home the sheer cunning of this … creature … with whom I have shared a bed and a life for years.

@Jambomo: Great advice throughout the thread but I still descend into deep, immature laughter whenever I think about your characterization of your Ex as having “a face like a melted welly”!

@Freeme: Another helpfully sobering post, hammering home the degree to which my WF made choice after choice after choice after choice.

@Sceadugenga: Your psychological analysis of the entire matter was superb.

And that is just six of you I highlight, when in reality each poster –even those of you who provide ‘tough love’—has helped me navigate the octopus-like grip this woman and her family have tried to have on me in the aftermath of D-day.

The ‘collective wisdom’ here is really quite something. I will post in 10-15 minutes with an update from the last few days.

DIFM posted 4/15/2021 11:38 AM

I think you may have misunderstood nekonamida, who posted:

EVEN IF what she says is true - and in my years of experience here I find that highly doubtful - she's still 100% responsible for cheating. It's not 50% her, 50% OM. It's not 50% her, 50% her no good cheating genes from her family. It's 100% her

The cheating your WF did is 100% on her. The AP had no control over your WF decisions to cheat. He is 100% responsible for cheating on his partner.

Absolon posted 4/15/2021 11:44 AM

The community’s unpacking of my WF’s letter was precisely the cold shower I required to read my WF’s words with the insight required to overleap all of the nonsense, manipulations and prevarications within.

My challenge was to somehow retrieve the engagement ring whilst maintaining my NC with WF. So, late on Tuesday night, I emailed WF’s father to say that I had received his daughter’s letter and that while I appreciated it (ha), I felt that by not returning the ring she wasn’t really respecting the boundaries and parameters I had established. He wrote back first thing yesterday morning and agreed to this, asking me to meet him for lunch at an (unsurprisingly!) exclusive restaurant.

Boy oh boy what a family. So, for one, while he did have the ring in his possession, he neither showed it to me nor even confirmed its presence until about halfway through the meal – which I found manipulative. The first half of the lunch was spent talking about quite literally everything but the 700-foot iceberg lurking beneath the surface of the waters. But then, as said, he did produce the ring and gave it back to me with great ceremony.

He then continued with blaming himself for his daughter’s problems, whilst telling me that her mental health is under great threat due to the complete shock she is experiencing at being ‘denied something she wants’ (me, apparently) for, ‘truly, the first time in her life’.

Things turned sour between us, though, when right near the end I leaned back in my chair, appraised him carefully for 10-15 seconds (which made him impressively uncomfortable), and then said, “You know … let me tell you something. By the time I was 13—and its possible I was even younger—my mother had inscribed in me a powerful mantra: ‘Take responsibility for your actions’. Because, when I was younger—as in: not even an adult—I was gifted at finding ways to shift responsibility for things I did wrong onto other people or other excuses. My mother taught me before I was in high school that it is very good, very liberating, to own up to our mistakes. Indeed, it is even empowering.”

He seemed torn between anger and embarrassment, and there was a long silence between us. I then gently nudged across a photocopy of his daughter’s letter to me, saying, “I am sure you haven’t read this.”

It was clear to me that there is no way he could have read it in its entirety. He just crumpled it up and rolled it back across the table at me. Then, in easily the most sinister voice possible, he said, “If you can’t take your fiancée’s truths at face value, then you two have no hope of reconciling this unfortunate temporary situation.” When I looked at him, totally gobsmacked, and said nothing, he then said, getting up to leave, “It will please me to see you two back together. I don’t appreciate the way you have spoken to me this afternoon and, frankly, I thought you had considerably more class than this, but I underwrite it to the grief you are experiencing. You need to do the right thing, here.”

And so I asked, “And that is …?”

And he just stared at me for about 5 seconds, said nothing, went to pay the bill at the front, and left.

So that could have been my father-in-law …

Back in actual reality, I had an amazing coffee with OBS a few hours ago.

It was tough because I told her about my WF’s letter (I chose not to show it to her for a wide variety of reasons I am happy with), and she then proceeded to tell me her (AP) husband’s version of events. And it was … incredible. It was ostensibly my WF’s letter, but with the blame shifted onto her: he, the victim, she the aggressive predator! Oh, and that she (WF) was justifying it all because I am ‘emotionally abusive’.

Beyond the brutality of that, it was clear from her timeline, the affair was probably well underway as early as June 2020. He (AP) had certainly fessed up to little things from around that time – though each event being under the banner of my WF acting as the predatorial agent of influence and temptation.

When we both got through each others’ tales from the crypt (!), something amazing happened: we both just started laughing: nervously, at first, then sort of immature giggling, then actual crying laughter. It was … beautiful. Cathartic. It was, honestly, the most freeing and light a feeling I have had in months.

She then started crying a bit, though, just saying she had no clue what she was going to do. But she knows that he is as sick as my WF and that she has to extricate herself from him, somehow.

So that’s it.

I don’t know … as uplifting and empowering as the last 48 hours or so have been, as I sit and write this and conclude this post, I am nonetheless suddenly engulfed in sadness, loneliness and a sense that I will never properly recover from this and will never be able to trust again.

I am not taking my WF back; that is for sure. I am in the process of drafting a once-and-for-all final letter to her, politely asking her to leave my life forever.

What a mess.

And, as I have asked before, and again and again: ‘What was all this for?’

This0is0Fine posted 4/15/2021 11:54 AM


Thanks for the update. You seem to be quite the upstanding individual.

I immediately found myself thinking "everything is temporary" given the emphasis from you XF's father. Anyway, good luck with the future and hopefully "permanent" NC with your XF.

grubs posted 4/15/2021 12:03 PM

And, as I have asked before, and again and again: ‘What was all this for?’

There was a comment much earlier in this post about how your WGF is an entitled princess. There is a certain attitude that comes from growing up without concern of failures having real consequences and there's very little that can't be fixed with proper application of sufficient money and power. To them outsiders are just props in their stories. They're still trying to get you back into your role. Don't expect that her family won't cause issues for you down the road. The good news is that sort of power is generally localized and moving just a few states away can free you from it. Too bad CincyKid's still not around. He had direct experience with that.

Sceadugenga posted 4/15/2021 12:15 PM

I don’t know … as uplifting and empowering as the last 48 hours or so have been, as I sit and write this and conclude this post, I am nonetheless suddenly engulfed in sadness, loneliness and a sense that I will never properly recover from this and will never be able to trust again.

Being cheated on and mistreated by such a toxic individual changes us forever so your emotional state is fully understandable. I realise these may not be the best circumstances to read what I'm about to write, but realise this: when the dust settles somewhat I'd like you to be content in one thought: In the space of the last few days you have become a legend and an object of envy of many members of this forum. I'm speaking for myself here but, man, I wish I'd had your clarity and resolve when my own shite went down ...

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