SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thumos, I could take issue with many things you have said.

But I am not sure that this is helpful to me.

You make a strong case that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I need to heal.

I need to accept what I can't change.

I need to ask for changes and assurances and be sure that the information I seek about our long ago is constructive.

She threatened to leave you in '88. I don't understand this in the context of what happened. Someone threatening to end the marriage typically results in a severe crisis for the marriage right then and there. It usually results in a significant loss of trust and a wound that must be addressed.

Like, you know, most marriages someone threatens to leave you for someone else, it's a huge turning point, it's tantamount to separation. It's acknowledgement they've shattered the vows.

But it sounds like that didn't happen here.

To be precise, she mentioned leaving and ending the marriage ONE NIGHT, she never mentioned it again. I was shocked by her statement. She did not leave, she never talked about ending the marriage. We continued to live as a married couple. I do not recall the I am staying conversation or perhaps it was made obvious when we left her parents home and moved into an apartment together.

So it was not a huge turning point. I jumped to a conclusion that he had rejected her interest. I knew he had moved to another city...

this is all to the best of my recollection, it happened a long time ago

mrplspls - As I have stated earlier in this thread and so many others, before you even worry about anything else, you have to at least start to think about if you can accept a life with a lying cheater.

It appears that you have made your decision, even if it means using drugs to attempt to mute your emotions, reading tripe to "explain" her unconscionable behavior, and letting her off the hook with lashing out or making hurtful comments at you even at this late period.

I don't see that you appear to be healing - nothing you have written since post 1 indicates someone who is healing - but if this is what you will accept, it is your life.

Good luck to you.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 7:21 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

Please guys – Can we stick closer to the issues Mr++ is discussing?

Threads sometimes veer off course on tangents that really have little relevance to the core issues.

To be precise, she mentioned leaving and ending the marriage ONE NIGHT, she never mentioned it again.

One night, or ten nights, if my WW had told me she was going to leave me for another man if he’d have her it would be an earthquake in the marriage.

We’d be talking about it immediately, on demand, every day, until I got an answer to what the hell was going on. Or she left. But then again, when it was happening I VAR’d my WW and confronted.

I didn’t leave but I started doubting my decision to stay almost immediately.

Now that is me, and I can’t project my experience on to everyone. All I know is it’s why I’m where I am four years out. I wouldn’t let it rest. My mind and spirit would not allow it. I came here to SI a year ago realizing I wasn’t getting the truth.

I am unwilling to live a lie, even a “noble lie” if you will.

My very body rebelled against the idea. I landed in a cardiologist’s office doing psychic battle with someone who refused to be transparent.

I never stopped asking and probing, and it’s obvious my WW can’t bring herself to give me authenticity.

look, I think most BS’s come to a point where after DDAY they are simply sick of the lies and want to live in truth henceforth.

I hope your WW will stop DARVO’ing you and will be more honest amd transparent.

Wishing you the best, Mr++, in the midst of a very painful situation. be well and take care of yourself.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:05 PM, December 1st (Tuesday)]

Oh, jeez, not Perel.

MPP - if you are going to Perel for guidance, you may as well have no demands nor requests of your W regarding her infidelity, and just suck it up and get over it.

Perel is straight up, pro-WW trash.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 5:06 AM, December 2nd (Wednesday)]

Wait....

I thought it was Mr Please Please. But I see others think its plus plus.

Hmmmm...

mrplspls, you've been dealing with this for 33 years, though you didn't know it until recently. This is still all new to you. Take the time you need to work through everything. There's no rush at this point. If you're able to work through things and rebuild your marriage, great. If you decide that what she's done it too much and you need to divorce her, that's great too. There's nothing wrong with either option. Neither will be easy. The important thing is that you're comfortable with your choice. This is your life. You're the one you need to answer to.

For what it’s worth then I don’t see your wife as the Machiavellian schemer who settled for you as the lesser option because her dream-path was closed. Yes – she has carried this Albatross of a Lie with her for all these years, but I don’t think that’s what defines your marriage. It definitely impacts your marriage and just like any festering sore it could destroy your marriage if left untreated.

But I do believe it’s recoverable and I do believe that you two are on the right path. I also think that WH5 is totally correct in that you do have two options. You CAN reconcile and you CAN divorce.

Over the years there have been instances where I have said things that I regret or that have not been true. I have also experienced loved ones saying things that weren’t true or were said with the goal to hurt yet have maintained and grown a loving relationship with them. One thing we constantly tell people on SI is to look at actions over words. What do your wife’s actions over the past decade(s) told you?

There is no way to minimize or make little of what your wife did. There is no context where I can ever see infidelity as a positive factor. There are many – me included – that think a marriage can improve after infidelity, but I don’t think anyone is going to suggest that happens because of the infidelity. It’s all due to the work done – not the catalyst that makes the work necessary. I have often compared it to experiencing a life-threatening health issue that compels you to start eating healthy and exercising. Do that for a couple of years and you might be in the best shape of your life. At that point you wouldn’t tell your friends to go have a cardiac arrest to improve their lives. In fact, you would probably realize that you could have done the work without the life-threatening experience.

The counseling you are going through and the MC… It’s only partially aimed at the infidelity. It should be aimed at giving you the tools to deal with the infidelity and other issues your marriage has and might encounter. Both negative and positive. At some point – if the counseling is benefiting you – you will have the “aha” moment where you realize that if you both had these tools and the maturity to apply them at the beginning of your marriage then the chances are you wouldn’t be dealing with the shitstorm in your lap now. Just like if you had started hitting the gym, jogging and eating healthy at 25 you wouldn’t be dealing with the above-mentioned health issue at 50.

I have been firm on the poly. To me its just a tool to get you to a certain point.

You talk about assurances. I’m not entirely clear on what assurances you need and want.

I would assume (and I hate assuming…) that the assurances you need are those that enable you to move on. Well… let’s start with what moving on really means. To me it does NOT mean you forget or get over the infidelity. That will never happen, and it should never happen. Even in a fully reconciled marriage. What I would think moving on meant is making it, so the past infidelity is not a controlling factor in your marriage. That your interactions are not steered by her past infidelity and your life controlled by the pain and fear of infidelity. Sort of where you occasionally look at her and think “thank God we could work through the infidelity” and she looks at you and thinks “Thank God he’s still here despite my infidelity”.

The truth? Well… I doubt you will ever get the truth down to minute details. Did she wear the nice blue dress you liked so much when seeing OM? type of details. But you CAN get broad confirmation. Confirmation of the level I suggested. That in turn can give you assurances of the scope of the issue you are dealing with.

But… You can also decide to believe some truths. You can decide to take her at face-value regarding when it ended, if there has been contact and so on. You could also decide not to believe her truths, but then I don’t see reconciliation taking place. This is where I see the poly: the tool that lets you know if your WW is honest on the 2-3 key-factors that might facilitate reconciliation OR help you with a decision to divorce.

I don’t get why people keep discussing divorce as an option here. The man has stated that it’s not going to happen.

I don’t get all the various statements about living with a cheater. He gets that the woman he knew and thought was a perfect mate was in fact a liar, user, and coward. The operative word here is was.

I don’t get why the rehash of conversations from three decades ago are relevant. Yes 99% of the males on earth would have sat up, taken the wife by the arm and had a WTF discussion. It didn’t happen here.

The only relevant issue now is helping him get through the grief. His wife is apparently doing what she can.

So how does that dealing with the grief happen? I can tell you what does not work, and that is ruminating over every nuance over events that occurred when people were buying their first VCRs and microwave ovens. Because the past cannot be changed. Living in the now is the only issue.

So let’s get past the emotions that are screaming for retribution. They are real and visceral. No one wants to see a manipulative cheater beat the rap. But who knows what private hell she is going through as a result of her finally being honest? Probably more than we can imagine.

So, as long as wife is not being an obstacle to healing there is only one path. Counseling plus time plus open honesty equals relief of pain. There is no other way.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 11:42 AM, December 2nd (Wednesday)]

Mr++ found out three whole months ago about events that happened 33 years ago. It was much more than he was aware of way back then. It is whole new trauma for him. Fresh.

Mr++, when I had my first DDay some time after my XWW committed adultery I thought I wanted to reconcile. I might never have been able to but I thought that is what I wanted. It wasn't only the adultery but the years of lies looking right in my face. Deliberate lies by omission and commission.

I'm divorced. You may find your mind will change too as you start piecing things together. I never got what I needed in order to attempt reconciliation and I tried too long to get it. It might not have mattered anyway. I may have divorced no matter what she did.

I had my XWW book an appointment with a polygraph examiner of my choice. It was just a tool. It was to check if questions my XWW had answered were truthful. It wasn't the determining factor in whether to R or D. She passed the poly with flying colours. It was part of a number of things used to make a very important decision about my life. My life.

Part of it was how she reacted to taking a polygraph. She dragged her feet in booking it. Part of it was to see if there was going to be any "parking lot confessions". There wasn't. Part of it was to see if she would take another one. She wouldn't - too embarrassing. But I repeat - it wasn't the determining factor or even the major one but was a valuable tool.

longsadstory, you don't get it. I don't care if you don't get it. Not one bit. The betrayed's mind and solutions will jump all over the place. I thought I wanted to try reconcile for probably a year and a half. Reconciliation can still be an option. The poor wayward is going through her own personal hell - so what - we should have pity, I guess.

So, as long as wife is not being an obstacle to healing there is only one path.

Not so. There are a number of paths. Even if the wayward does everything right it can still be a dealbreaker. Some of us take longer to figure that out. So you can divorce. You can reconcile and rebuild the marriage. You can stay married and live in limbo.

In a small study referenced in "Cheating in a Nutshell" 34% divorced, 9% ended up staying married and it was improved and 49.5% stayed married but rated it distressed or empty.

What I don't get or accept is your lecturing.

As far as I’m concerned longsadstory1952 can lecture away all day.

It boils down to those that believe in redemption and that people can change and those that think that either impossible or unlikely. Although SI per se doesn’t have an official policy or agenda on if reconciliation is possible then a) the fact there is a Reconciliation forum b) there is a Wayward forum and c) site founded by a couple that reconciled seems to indicate that it’s considered an option. The fact we have a Divorce/Separation forum also shows the reality of R not always the selected option.

It’s my view that Mrplspls can focus on R and has a good chance at R. I also think that both he and his wife need to realize that D is an option and a common and possible outcome of untreated infidelity.

What that does is focus them. Maybe we can compare it to walking on a tight rope. If the rope is an inch above ground, then most of us wouldn’t have any qualms about trying and might even do so haphazardly. After all – we can safely step down. The risk isn’t really that high. Unfortunately, the infidelity and the recent trauma raised the rope to 30 feet and falling can cause permanent damage. If Mrplspls had to cross the rope at that height I venture he would take more care and be more focused than if the rope was an inch off the ground. Being aware of the risk does not imply he will fall or that he wants to fall, but that if he isn’t careful, he MIGHT fall.

Suggestions on how to get assurance and how to progress a step at a time – they fall into the how to best walk a tightrope or how to lower the height categories. IMHO suggestions on focusing on sentences and actions from 30 years ago as absolute truths… that’s more like adding height and lengthening the distance. Discussions on monogamy and its sustainability… that’s more like involving the clowns into the act.

Send in the clowns - it’s already a circus once adultery comes into the equation. 😂

The song “send in the clowns” is actually a pretty good set of lyrics for describing the unwelcome circus of infidelity.

In any case whether Mrplspls decides to R or D is his call, not ours.

But I find her admission back during the affair that she was prepared to leave him to be quite important to whatever decision he makes — not a throwaway line. It matters a great deal because Mrsplspls just found out the enormity of the truth, so for him 33 years ago is 33 seconds ago.

It’s always better to live in truth than to hide from it.

It very much goes to the weight of the affair — was it a fling or serious enough she considered dumping her husband? (odds on the latter).

Saying that doesn’t matter is equivalent to saying “That was all in the past.” Any wayward can use this line of reasoning (which is a bad line of reasoning used to service bad actions all the time).

The past was one second ago.

Mrplspls will have to decide how much it matters to him. He evidently came here in the first place because it mattered.

We all know this so I find it bizarre to dismiss the actual events of 33 years ago. They are critical and central to the entire situation. Knowing the truth of those events is critical.

actions from 30 years ago as absolute truths

Her sexual affair with another man 33 years ago is in fact an absolute truth. No shades of grey. It’s an empirical fact. A brute fact as the philosophers like to say.

It’s precisely what the BH is dealing with and precisely what we are discussing and what he is considering. What she thought about it and how she approached it and left it and viewed it are also immutable truths I think Mrplspls deserves the common courtesy of knowing.

Again I wish you well Mrplspls. Hoping for the best for you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:37 AM, December 3rd (Thursday)]

He gets that the woman he knew and thought was a perfect mate was in fact a liar, user, and coward.

The operative word here is was.

And this is based on what? I guess we can accept that she probably isn't actively cheating anymore, but I haven't seen evidence that she no longer exhibits those traits.

In fact we have read from Mrplspls that she still exhibits those traits: Had to have the truth dragged out of her, trickle truth, lashing out at him, minimizing, blameshifting, shutting down etc.

Not hardly an example of truth, bravery, or not being a person who uses others.

Some may think Mrplspls is a good candidate for reconciliation. I am not seeing it, not yet at least, based on his wife's behavior and his approach as well.

What I do see is a good candidate for sticking it out with his wife and suffering while she never does what ***might*** help him heal.

My evidence? Read his recent posts above about medication and crying.

Esther Perel books and morning affirmations ain't gonna plug that leak.

Mrplspls

You seem to be dragging the team that believes once a wayward always a wayward out of the woodwork.

They tend to be an insistent bunch, usually assuming that since their spouses behaved in a certain way then there is no other possibility that every other spouse behaves the same. Countering them seldom works because they tend to be more interested in being right and being heard than being helpful.

I’m going to strongly suggest you leave this thread here and post in reconciliation. It’s a different forum with a different format and those posting there are expected to be more supportive. Just as direct, but still supportive of if you are on the right track to reconcile rather than doubting reconciliation is even possible.

Mrplspls, you seem like a smart well-read guy who doesn’t need others policing speech, practicing thought control for you, setting up straw men, deliberately misinterpreting what others have said by being willfully obtuse, or filtering what you read. I think I’ll let you be the judge of what you need to read in an open Internet forum. Again, wishing you the very best in your journey.

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:59 PM, December 3rd (Thursday)]

I’m going to strongly suggest you leave this thread here and post in reconciliation. It’s a different forum with a different format and those posting there are expected to be more supportive. Just as direct, but still supportive of if you are on the right track to reconcile rather than doubting reconciliation is even possible.

I haven’t read every response but I totally agree with this ^^^

Thank you Houseofplane

Your welcome!

Having now defended Perel, I’ll say that she probably won’t be much help for you. Good for forensics on understanding why she did what she did, but if she stopped doing it on her own, she probably figured it out implicitly or explicitly on her own already. The affair was the wrong, destructive solution to what was the actual problem. She stopped. Of course, that left a ticking time bomb in your marriage, and now it’s gone off.

You have a different problem, one that can’t ever be completely solved by polygraphs and truth-telling on her part.

I am sure that you attached a portion of who you are to your wife. Your choice of her, her actions, etc., all helped to define you. Who she was and is said a lot about you. We build up a narrative of who we are over our lives, this big rambling story that we tell ourselves to define us.

That just got blown up. Who you are got blown up. The narrative you’ve spent so much time and effort constructing was just proven a big, fat lie.

To the extent that you feel that who she is says something about who you are, and to the extent that you place importance on that life narrative you’ve been writing, that is the measure of the pain you feel right now. That pain is immense, because it is an attack on your existence as you knew it.

I agree 100% with the others about the importance of the truth. But the search for the truth needs to include the truth about yourself too, which in a perfect world would go unexamined. Does she define you? How important is The Narrative?

There’s not much your wife can do to solve this problem. She can make it much worse, but not better. You’ve got work to do, by yourself, for your self.

If you want to try R, you should post in the R forum.

I have started in reconciliation.

Thank you to all.

I think once I hit 50 posts I will be able to send messages, so some may hear from me.

I heal.

She heals.

We continue and love and try to understand.

Pain, oh yes. Wisdom always respected, experience acknowledged.

thanks and love to all who shared.....

I hate to pour fuel on the fire. But she pretty much got away with cheating on you. You never got the chance to give her any consequences like telling her to leave the house, you have not outed her cheating to friends or family or her work HR. You never had the chance to do anything. She got what she wanted and then hid it from you for over 30 years. She got away with murder. I don't know how you could still look her in the eye and tell her you love her and you forgive her.

[This message edited by Tempocontour at 5:06 PM, December 6th (Sunday)]

I hate to pour fuel on the fire. But she pretty much got away with cheating on you.

The majority of affairs are never discovered. Ever. They take it to the grave.

Those are the people who got away with it.