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In order to attempt R, you simply need the entire story. There is no other way to do it other than by a polygraph. Just the threat could force her to disclose more information. If she is willing and shows no reluctance, she has probably given you all the details concerning the last 33 years. A polygraph will confirm it. You can then direct your attention to repairing the damage. BUT, if you have nagging questions, as you seem to have, the repair will be much harder. A polygraph will go a long way in removing those questions.

Never going to have the entire story.

Time is not on my side.

Memory has faded.....

Never going to have the entire story.

Time is not on my side.

Memory has faded.....

I don't think many of us here are suggesting she recall with instant memory every whispered word, stupid snippet of love poetry they shared or variety of kama sutra positions they might have tried.

But she can give you way more than the basic outlines if she's willing to try. She has to be willing to do the work, though, and that only comes from a person who is deeply remorseful.

There are all sorts of ways to trigger memory recall, and she could work on it for months if needed.

Just look at a book like Angela's Ashes. Do you think the writer instantly recalled all of that? Do you think it's 100 percent accurate? No of course not, on both counts. But it's way closer to the truth and with much more accurate detail than if he provided a one page summary. It's an intellectually honest attempt at giving "the whole truth" and sharing with the world a painful and beautiful portrait of a difficult childhood.

He could have said, "I had a bad childhood filled with deprivation and alcoholism and stuff. I'm Irish. The end."

Am I suggesting she write a novel? Again, of course not.

But I really feel you are letting her off the hook here if you think she can't recall some essential details of a very important part of her life -- and your life.

She can do the work. The question is whether she's willing. The question is also whether you will accept second best from her.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:52 PM, November 4th (Wednesday)]

Never going to have the entire story.

That's true. It even True for Betrayed Spouses whose spouse were caught yesterday mid-affair.

Time is not on my side.

Memory has faded.....

Wrong.

Time is not on her side, if you decide to set strong boundaries for what you will accept and not accept and live with from your wife.

AS Bigger pointed out above, and I have pointed out many times before that, there are many things she certainly does remember:

Personally – if I were in your shoes – these three questions would be on my poly list, and by passing them I would feel a lot safer moving on.

(i) being assured that the affair was over when she says it was over,

(ii) that there has not been any contact since when she says there was last contact

(iii) that other than OM and you she has not been intimate with another man since you married

I would add to that if she has had any other type of inappropriate contact or communications (As defined very specifically by a polygraph operator.) with any men during your relationship.

Trust me brother, she knows all of that stuff.

The real question is whether you will require your wife to prove she values your relationship enough to answer you with the "whole truth" - which is not day-by-day detail, but answers like the above.

***

mrplspls - I read some of your posts in "I can relate". Bigger suggested you look in the "Reconciliation Forum".

Aren't people telling you very similar things in the other forum?

Did you read posts in reconciliation, seeing that far from being a new life of wine and roses, reconciliation is hard work that is easily derailed by lies, incomplete truth, and minimizing? (Among other things)

I feel like you are searching for a way around requiring your wife to be accountable on your way to reconciliation.

But the fact is, for reconciliation to be possible, you need to go through the accountability process with your wife.

And by the way, even then, reconciliation is far from guaranteed.

Good luck to you with whatever approach you choose.

I suggest you stop compromising with her and compromising your spiritual and mental health, and move into requiring her to show you that she is telling the truth and has truly changed.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 12:12 PM, November 4th (Wednesday)]

faithfulman

searching for a way around requiring your wife to be accountable

Yup.

M++, think of it instead as searching for ways for your wife to demonstrate being acountable. Give her the opportunity. If she is all-in, she will gladly accept the opportunity.

I am going to ask this for the THIRD time.

Can you elaborate on what your wife was angry about when talking with her?

Never going to have the entire story.

Time is not on my side.

Memory has faded....

Yes and no. As others have noted few BS ever get the whole story. No one could ever know if their WS fantasizes about AP while in a warm bath, for example. Any timeline your wife produces will not have exact dates, or how many times they had sex, but she should be able to produce a reasonably clear picture. She most certainly remembers where and other significant details.

- Did they get have sex in your home/bed?

- On dates that would be significant to you (birthdays, anniversary, etc?

- Has she ever attempted to contact him over the years? Ever done a Google/Facebook/LinkedIn search?

These are all things she should be willing to answer truthfully. No garbage about "not wanting to hurt you more".

Mrplspls - it is likely you will also begin to remember things from that time period, details that you thought were lost to time. I've recalled a number of things from the time period of my situation (1989), and that has been a real surprise. Those things have helped to jog my WW's memory a bit, though she is still not really forthcoming.

I am going to ask this for the THIRD time.

Can you elaborate on what your wife was angry about when talking with her?

She was angry that in the heat of the argument I had called myself the injured spouse and her the cheating spouse.

In the heat of the moment she did not want to be defined by choices and mistakes that she regrets and has devoted her life to living in a better, stronger, moral way since then.

She accepts she cheated repeatedly as a young wife, she wants a path to redemption.

I don't want her words of anger (pent up and coming off of anti depressants) to define her position.

She answers every question, she wants me to heal, she accepts responsibility. She wants to deserve my love, today....

She was angry that in the heat of the argument I had called myself the injured spouse and her the cheating spouse.

In the heat of the moment she did not want to be defined by choices and mistakes that she regrets and has devoted her life to living in a better, stronger, moral way since then.

I understand saying things in the heat of the moment.

I will say again that, for you, this all happened in recent history (absent of course that you knew 33 years ago she was having some sort of affair).

In any case, many WS's say a series of gobsmackingly hurtful things after DDAY. This gets reported here on SI a lot. It compounds the damage they've already done.

My WW did it, and most most of them practice at least some form of DARVO and continuing gaslighting. They blame shift. They dissemble. They say they can't remember. They won't be transparent. They want you to drop it. Etc. Etc.

All of the false narratives and juvenile justifications they concocted in their interior monologue come pouring out of their mouths after DDAY, and they look laughable and silly in the light of day.

Then a lot of come back later and say something like, "Boy I was really out of my my mind, I didn't mean all of that crazy shit I said."

Only you've been sitting there eating the shit sandwich of the disclosure of their betrayal and on top of that had more feces added to the sandwich by the hurtful behaviors and words they continued to exhibit after the disclosure.

The problem is they often said these things or practiced some version of DARVO AFTER DDay, so they've compounded an already gaping abyss in the marriage with more hurt and lack of trust.

Then they want you to credit it all to them being out of their minds or in the fog or whatever. Or what a great, swell wife they've been all these years -- as if you owe them something.

But what if they weren't out of their minds at all and were perfectly sane? And what if they meant it, but took it back because they don't want to lose their convenient marriage arrangement.

It's also a problem that your wife seems to want you to credit all of behavior since she cheated long ago -- but you really have no idea if it's true or not that she stayed faithful after that.

And you know for a fact that in all these years, she deliberately chose to violate your autonomy and agency as a human being with free will, overriding your decision making as a free man to do what you felt was best with your life.

She kept that from you.

So when she says, essentially, "Look at what a great wife I've been all these years" you have to remember she's also saying "While I kept vital information about your life from you and violated the very covenant of our marriage from the inception of it."

I want to be clear that you CAN choose to credit all of that to her. I'm not diminishing it. I'm just saying as you think about this, it may trouble you that she seems to have made the assumption that you WILL and MUST credit it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:56 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

chances are mrplspls after 30 years of marriage is

60 years of age, getting close to retirement does he cut off his

nose to spite his face.

does he divorce his WW, place himself in financial hardship

possible loss of his house, no family holidays with grandkids,

etc.

chances are he will not find a wife that will be better than his

WW has been post D day and there is no guarantee that wife

number 2 will not cheat on him as well.

though every time his WW says she gave him 30 years being

the perfect wife to make up for her cheating he needs to ask his WW:

how is she going to give him back 30 years living a life based

on lies?

how is she giving his youth back, those 30 years so if he did

not, could not, recover his marriage, to have a family with

another wife that did not cheat on him?

she cannot give him anything back, she cannot undo anything.

does the OP destroy the rest of his life and divorce his WW

or accept what his WW has treated him after her affair as

just compensation.

OP i understand your pain and see your need to make your

WW aware of the pain you are in.

I don’t recommend that OP consider divorce. I’m also in my 60’s, and I can’t see tearing his world to pieces at this stage of life. It would be a case of punishing himself for his wife’s actions.

OP: In my experience, your old love is dead. Maybe you’ll never genuinely love her again, or possibly it’ll take a different form, but it will never be the same.

Speak to her about her affairs any time you want for as long as you want; she doesn’t have the right to end the conversation, and she doesn’t have the right to frame it for her benefit. At that same time, spare yourself unnecessary pain. Knowing too much carries burdens of its own.

You under no obligation to forgive her, and you have no responsibility to make yourself less secure because of her decisions. Look after your own well-being and that of your children and grandchildren. If necessary, live independently under the same roof for a while.

All this said, I hope counseling works for you and that the remainder of your life is as content as you once hoped it would be.

Edit to note: She IS the cheating spouse.

[This message edited by unsearch at 9:37 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

I'm 69. My divorce was final in April, 2020 when I was 68. We separated in September, 2017 when I was 66.

Just because I'm older and the divorce has greatly affected my net worth and ease of living doesn't mean it isn't the best thing to do. If it's a deal breaker, it's a deal breaker. How much are your values worth? What price will you pay?

If you can look across the breakfast table at the person who stabbed you and laughed while you bled out or ran over you with a D10 cat, backed up and ran over you again good for you. If there hasn't been any real reconciliation but just settling to not disturb your retirement plans and that's okay for you then good for you.

I can't and won't. It doesn't have anything to do with age. It has to do with values. Had there appeared to be an attempt to show that reconciliation might be a possibility it might have been different. Might. There wasn't any and there are limits to what is acceptable no matter the cost.

She was angry that in the heat of the argument I had called myself the injured spouse and her the cheating spouse.

That shows right there that her mind still ain't right and she is entitled, shares the blame for her decisions with you, wants to somehow consider himself a victim, etc.

Did you ask her in what way is she possibly the injured spouse, and how she is not the cheater?

In the heat of the moment she did not want to be defined by choices and mistakes that she regrets and has devoted her life to living in a better, stronger, moral way since then.

Read: Doesn't want to accept the consequences of her deliberate choices and actions.

Apparently her devotion does not rise to the level of honesty, total acceptance of her betrayal, etc.

She lied to you for 33 years. She has not lived in a better stronger moral way since then.

She accepts she cheated repeatedly as a young wife, she wants a path to redemption.

Tell her the "path to redemption" lies in total unflinching truth.

All cheaters want the "path to redemption". Basically, she wants a guarantee. Like the guarantee you wanted of faithfulness when you said your wedding vows.

I don't want her words of anger (pent up and coming off of anti depressants) to define her position.

I don't get this. You will never heal yourself until you stop excusing her destructive and hurtful ways.

She answers every question,

I doubt this. Or you aren't asking the right questions under the right conditions.

she wants me to heal,

As long as she doesn't accept the full responsibility for her actions or has to admit that she is a cheater and betrayed her husband and lied about it for decades.

she accepts responsibility.

Nope: She was angry that in the heat of the argument I had called myself the injured spouse and her the cheating spouse.

She wants to deserve my love, today....

She wants, she wants, she wants...

That is what got her into trouble in the first place:

- She wanted a sexual and emotional relationship this other guy

- She wanted to dismiss her wedding vows and leave you to run off with him.

- Then she wanted to pretend that it didn't happen. For 33 years

- Now she wants you to Forget about the whole thing because she's "been good" - according to her word, since this dude left her in the dust.

Forget her wants. It's your turn, it is now 100% about your wants. She TOOK WHAT SHE WANTED for 33 years.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 10:41 AM, November 12th (Thursday)]

I still check in here, still mull over the thoughts and guidance.... married life continues.

update?

Keep posting Mr++

We have taken a December break from meeting with our MC.

A therapist friend, who knows no details but has a hunch that something is amiss, is putting together a list of therapists for me to see.

Things were going well, healing and living in the moment. The switch to Paxil seemed ok. It has had impact on sex drive. Then recent days have been emotional. No new information, no change, just tears from me at the end of the day.

Maybe change in medication? dosage? I might write down the things that I don"t know. Maybe I am fearing more info. I have told her that.

A lot of self doubt and self criticism are dogging me.

She consoles and supports and has faith that we can be saved and strengthened. She does not ask me to forget, but she knows that I am on the right path....

Had an uncle that went on Paxil, for two weeks... and said enough of this crap!

So sorry mrplspls. Just another layer of rotten injustice to the BS. I pray the side effects will vanish, one way or another.

I would not jump into MC at this timeline. Chances of getting a bad one are high.

Your marriage wasn’t broken. She was and sounds like still is. Let her go to IC.