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A VAR could get you the information you need to know. You confronted and got what you got. I would suggest that you be straight with her on a few things. Tell her that if something like this happens again where you meet him at a motel, we will have a problem. I would also tell his wife that he and my wife met at a hotel. See if you two can work together to get the evidence you need to prove she is cheating. I could be wrong, but this is probably what I would do.

Based on conversations with him, he has admitted to cheating on his wife several times, though I'm unsure if it is with mine.

From what I've seen from being observant and doing my own research, I have yet to find a smoking gun. I'll believe my wife and we have set boundaries and she has followed those. Though, I'll continue to keep my eyes and ears open to see if there are any coincidences that happen.

The hotel room issue could be a coincidence based on the messages I mentioned earlier. Though, I wont forget and will be more aware of things out of the ordinary. I see what this group has stated and while there are red flags, I'm not findings a definite smoking gun. I have done the distant observation of then together and read their work and personal messages and nothing comes across that an affair is happening.... though wont let me guard down... will keep you guys updated as things unfold....

Where was the OMs wife when your wife spent the night at his house?

Yet to find a smoking gun?

WHAT!!!

Friend – you have the smoking gun plus bullet casings and a strong smell of cordite.

All that is missing is the target and the victim.

There IS nothing “normal” about the hotel.

Have you asked his wife about that night your wife slept on the couch?

Edited to add:

Nor the massage. OK – so maybe there are plenty around and at all the hotels, but does your wife normally drop off for a massage in the middle of the work-day? Does she just drop off for a massage with no toiletries or anything of that sort to use after the massage? Did she have her toiletries with her that day? Why? If not then how did she manage after the massage? Where did she go after the massage? Home? Back to work?

[This message edited by Bigger at 9:00 PM, October 2nd (Friday)]

Maybe this is believable to you. It may not seem out of the ordinary. If that is the case then you are wise to remain observant.

FWIW if my H had not confessed the night I confronted him I sound never have known anything. And when I told people they accused me of being crazy. Out of line. Completely mistaken.

No one thought my H would ever cheat.

Most of us here thought better of our spouses. Many of us would never think our spouses would lie and cheat. And lie. And make up ridiculous stories about events or where they were or who they were with.

Keep vigilant. Keep digging. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. Same goes for cheaters. When the cheater starts blaming you for their unhappiness you will know she’s behaving like a typical cheater.

I want you to really think about this.

How can you expect her to be honest with you when YOU can't even be honest with yourself?

You are lying to yourself.

As I said previously you can't change what you won't confront.

FEAR is driving you right now!!

Let that sink in.....FEAR IS DRIVING YOU!!

You damn well know she's cheating or you wouldn't be here on SI!!

Your gut is SCREAMING AT YOU and you're IGNORING it and my friend that's when you lose YOU!!

We all get it...you just want this nightmare to go away...and for things to go back to the way they were before. That you have a loving and faithful wife and all is well in your mind.

Everyone here on SI wanted this for crying out loud!!

If you do NOT have truth and honesty in a relationship you have NOTHING....do you understand this??

Rugsweeping this is lying to yourself and it shows that you (and your wife) do NOT value truth and honesty and it also shows that you're both living a lie.

It takes a lot of courage to face the truth.

You're not there yet and it's understandable but my friend this is not going away and at some point you're going to have to face this.

The first step is being honest with yourself.

Stop lying to yourself and being in denial.

Once you've accepted the fact that your wife IS cheating on you, then and only then, can you then start taking action to having your wife OWN UP to her cheating and lies and whether or not that leads to divorce or reconciliation that will be up to her being truthful to you.

As I said, your actions (or inactions) are being driven by FEAR!!

My friend life is too damn short to go through each day having your thoughts enslaved and shackled by fear.

You're at a crossroad, you can continue down the journey of being in denial and living a lie which will TORMENT you EVERY single day moving forward OR you can find the courage to accept the truth (that your wife IS cheating on you) and what are you prepared to do to get out of infidelity??

Would you have married this woman if you knew she would bring another man into your relationship?

What about your vows (and how seriously) did the words "FORSAKING ALL OTHERS mean to you?

Are you good with your wife looking you in the eyes and flat out LYING to you?

Are you good with your wife thinking you're a damn fool for believing her when she knows what she's done?

"Smoking gun"???

As Bigger said "you have the smoking gun plus bullet casings and a strong smell of cordite. All that is missing is the target and the victim".

Denial or truth....what choice are you going to make?

When you tackle your fear you'll know what's TRULY GOING ON and more importantly what you need to do.

And going through life having to play detective on your wife's daily actions is NO marriage nor is it a relationship that will bring (or give) you ANY PEACE!!

The choice is up to you....choose wisely my friend....

Meeting your boss alone at a hotel for any reason, is in itself very inappropriate. It is also very inappropriate to fall asleep in their house (couch or bed).

People who go for massages 1) tend to have a regular place they go to where they know it’s a good service and tend not to move around, 2) have to book in well in advance, 3) don’t go during a working day.

You know (from asking) that she didn’t get a massage there and that she has lied to you.

Her refusal to talk about it, but lie and stonewall you instead, speaks volumes. If she were innocent then she would be offering everything to prove what she has been doing.

Look, it’s your life but when you rugsweep (as I have personal experience of doing) it just comes back time and time again. It’s mentally exhausting because you are constantly on alert.

It’s her boss. Realistically you cannot police her, or their time together. If this affair is out in the open then she would need to be getting another job, in the dark, what can you do to make her? Things never get better when you pretend this isn’t happening.

usaskiteam:

I have done the distant observation of then together and read their work and personal messages and nothing comes across that an affair is happening....

I would like to caution you!

We have seen a lot of infidelities happen without using messages or email exchange, it happens when affair partners are careful, they don't need messaging since they can interact in person!

Remember:

he has admitted to cheating on his wife several times

This guys has experience!

He knows what to do and what not, they are very good avoiding being caught, and they usually guide their affair partners (APs) on how to properly hide things and be experts in deceiving their spouses, they are experts, be careful!

And yes, I agree with the posters here, don't let FEAR of losing something drive you, you need to be on your guard!

There are major red flags you just cannot ignore, the hotel thing is just one of them!

The other is:

I approached her about it this morning and she now doesnt want to talk to me and is stonewalling me.

She should be proving to you that she is faithful and loyal partner NOT stonewall you!

usaskiteam, we have huge experience dealing with these type of things, we have seen a lot, so mouth shut, eyes open, and continue digging, don't settle!

Where's the receipt for her massage? Maybe her boss gave her one himself. For free?

I don't buy any of it. It would be interesting to find out what the boss's wife has to say about her sleeping on their couch.

And where she thought her husband was the night in the hotel.

ETA, cuz I sent too soon: My advice to you is to keep reading here. Find some of the very long threads in this forum (Just Found Out) and when you find some that sound like yours, read them from beginning to end. Also, in the yellow box to the left of the page is the Healing Library where there is a wealth of great things to read.

I really hope you're right and that your situation is the once in a blue moon that the good people of S.I. perhaps read too much into. I've never personally seen it happen but I never say never. So please hang around and learn more about all of this because even if this particular instance is innocent, the fact that she lied about the massage is not good, nor is her sleeping on someone's couch without telling you.

[This message edited by josiep at 10:14 AM, October 3rd (Saturday)]

Respectfully sir, regarding the night she slept at his house. You said her boss doesn’t live far from you and you saw that he was home between1-2 am. Do you live close enough that you can observe his car in the driveway? If so, why did he simply not drop her home before going to his own home? It simply makes no sense. It would behoove you to find out, and contact his wife. It’s not your responsibility to cover up for his affairs.

You are hesitant rock the boat. You need to dig into this and blow it up. Any fall out is on them not you. Brother, listen to the advice here, I’m so pissed at how I handled red flags and Dday, trust me you will only make it worse tip toeing around this.

Workplace adultery is, apparently, the hardest to discover. There was no communication between my XWW and her POS AP other than through work channels. There was no behaviour at work that lead any of the fellow employees to believe they were committing adultery. There was a couple of people who hated my XWW's guts and had they known it would have been well known. I knew one of the people who my XWW supervised and he was totally and genuinely surprised when I approached him for more info. He respected my WW and disliked her AP.

My XWW had many meeting with her team that included lots of people including the POS AP. There was no indication to them that anything was amiss. If there had been the whispers in a large room full of cubicles would have communicated it all over.

Being observant while they are controlling the narrative may not show you much. You don't see them when they think no one is watching.

Trust your gut. It's telling you something. Don't let your mind and heart over ride it. I can tell you a sad personal story about what that looks like.

Your country doesn’t have private investigators? So you live in a dictatorship?

But it does allow women and men to work together, has bars, and hotels with spas.

Cmon man. Go on the net. Or ask a cop, or your business head of security.

Your answer seems like a cop out. I once knew a PI and he told me that it was always the same. He would get hired, and the guy or woman then really didn’t want to know.

You can live your life in angst or you can do something.

Wow!!!

Denial, Denial, Denial!!!!!

I won’t say she’s cheating. I wont go that far.

I tend to be reluctant in adding to our club. If there is a chance of this not being an affair I would probably be pointing to those factors. But what is definite is that there are a LOT of indicators that support something is going on. Enough to warrant that you get assurance.

There is a reason you found us. There is doubt in your mind. If you can honestly say that the actions over the last couple of days have 100% satisfied you and you are 100% assured there is nothing going on, well good for you. Move on.

But if there is even 1% of doubt that percent will fester and swell. It will grow more interest and eventually destroy your marriage – irrespective of infidelity or not.

The truth will set you free. Free to divorce, free to reconcile, free to deal with your insecurities IF she isn’t cheating.

I’m a former cop. In the academy one of my instructors often said something like: When you hear the beating of hooves in the distance you think horses, not zebras. That quote can be understood in a couple of ways:

If I was responding to a burglary-call late afternoon and about 200 yards from the site I met a group of young men carrying bags running in the opposite direction I could assume they were involved and would be justified in detaining them. At the same time if I met a middle-aged person in training gear jogging away from the site, I could assume they were not involved and be justified in going on to the scene. But in both cases I could be wrong although experience would probably have me right in both instances. For all I know the young men were running to catch a bus. For all I know the spandex-covered exercise freak might be the burglar. Maybe I heard hooves and caught horses, maybe I heard hooves and was surprised by zebras.

In you case there are a number of factors that strongly indicate infidelity:

The evenings together are unhealthy. A social pattern of drinking with work-mates every Friday for 2-4 hours isn’t good. In itself that’s not infidelity, but it creates a proximity and environment where actions and emotions possibly founded at work can be developed over a drink.

Is it always the same group? Do all attend? Does Sue in bookkeeping who has a 5-year old at home go every Friday and stay all the time? How about Peter who wants to go home and take his wife out for dinner? Who are the constant factors in this meet? If the constants include W and Boss… Although not infidelity it can be a strong factor towards infidelity.

The evening/night spent at OM home. This is a big red flag. Now I not only hear the hooves, but smell the horse-shit too.

Why? Why not put in a taxi home? Why didn’t boss or boss wife phone you to pick her up?

If she crashed out on the couch, then can the boss wife confirm it? After all – IMHO the ONLY mitigating factor is if his wife was at home.

Fortunately for you this is the part you can validate. I can give you two ways to validate her story. There is the better way (the one I recommend) and there is the worse way:

Phone the OMW and ask her. Just be honest. “Hi. I’m uncomfortable about that night my wife slept at your house. I’m worried about her drinking to that level. Could you confirm that she was too drunk to get home safely?”

IF OMW was there and was aware of your W being there then I would feel a bit safer. MAYBE the animals rounding the corner are black and white.

The worse way: “Hi. Remember that night Sue slept on your couch? Well… we can’t find a necklace I once gave her. Is it possibly lost in the couch?”

The hotel. Wow… That has me hearing the hooves, smelling the shit and seeing something brown rounding the corner.

There can be some logical reasons for boss to want to work completely off-site, but they are far and deep. Like if he’s hiring a competitor, or selling the company or some act that needs to be kept completely secret. But those reasons are the zebras rather than the horses.

Your wife spending at least an hour… why? Can she tell you what she was doing for an hour that was so secretive boss needed a hotel-room yet she was in on? It just doesn’t make sense.

What you know from her admission is that she was at the hotel for 3 hours (1 in room and 2 in massage).

Yet you don’t have anything other than her word for the validity of the massage-claim or the time spent at each.

I get it that where you are there are a lot of hotels and a lot of spas. Where I live there are a lot of gas-stations. Doesn’t mean I pull in and fill up at all of them…

When your wife goes to work does she spend time getting ready? My wife spends time every morning doing stuff to her face and hair that I might not understand but certainly appreciate. If we go to a massage or the gym together, I usually spend 10-15 minutes longer before showering and changing back and am generally STILL ahead of her. She might have a small bag in her purse that she calls her maintenance kit, but at the gym she needs a larger bag for all the stuff.

So if your wife is walking past the spa at the hotel her boss is working… Would she drop in for a 2 hour massage (the time is relevant) and then just pop on the same clothes without make-up, body-cream and all that stuff? Did she have her toiletries with her? If so then why?

To me – if she didn’t have her toiletries then a two hour massage (that’s A LONG TIME for a shoulder massage) is a zebra.

If she brought her big bag of tricks with her to a hotel-meeting with boss… that too would be a big red flag.

There is simply too much.

You ask for a smoking gun. You have it.

What you need is who pulled the trigger and who is the victim.

Some things (other than talk to OM wife as suggested above):

Have her hand over her phone NOW. No time to delete or change.

Talk to her and explain how unreasonable the excuses are. They might be true, but what can she do to assure you? Like would she be willing to go to the spa and point out the masseur?

What was the boss doing in a hotel? Does he do this regularly? What does your wife know about that (after all – he asked her to come over).

What did she come over for? If he needs privacy to go over something then is she such a kingpin as to be required to his site?

[This message edited by Bigger at 10:16 AM, October 4th (Sunday)]

usaskiteam, many of us know that feeling, wanting to believe what sounds inconceivable. I did the same thing for a couple of years before I found the smoking gun.

Looking back, I was so stupid and trusting. Her story does not add up. She spent the night, on the couch at her bosses house, a known cheater. He works at a hotel, your wife visits to drop off paperwork.....for an hour, then has a message for two hours at the same hotel....but magically there is no record!?!

Sorry brother, there are more red flags than a communist parade.

Look, your story is a lot like mine. My WW started her last PA with a coworker and higher in authority, but not a direct boss. Started with drinks with a bunch of people then the groups got smaller, eventually just my WW, the AP and another woman. Eventually the woman left, he walked my WW to her car and kissed her. It was 15 minutes later and my WW was screwing him. My WW had the same far fetched excuses too. I wanted so badly to believe her. I tried, but as much as I wanted to, in my head, I knew it didn’t add up, and neither does your WW’s story.

OP is in denial and looking to rugsweep. I don't think that there is much anyone here can do to help.

My XWW told me that people often go for drinks on Thursdays after week. Happy hour. She was wondering about joining them. I told her it was a good idea for team building but she needed to be careful because people could use going for drinks with the boss as an opportunity to gain an inside track.

Turns out the drinks were with 2 people, the chaperone female and the AP. As Bigger suggested the chaperone would leave before them so they could have private time. XWW supervised both. For Happy Hour everyone else would leave to get home as good parents and spouses except for the three and then the two.

As I indicated above, usaskiteam, workplace adultery is the hardest to discover. Something was causing your gut turmoil. Find out what it was.

Sorry brother, regardless where you live they charge people for massages and bill some one. Either he paid for the massage or she was just in his room fir the whole time there. But don’t tell anyone ok as he is a known cheater. Why would your WW lie? So you don’t challenge her or D.

Not having a go but rug sweeping 101 here. She has just taken time off from him and will take it underground.

One day at a time.

There are SO many red flags here.

You can't change what you won't confront.

You say you saw a text from her boss to your wife saying "that he would prefer she keep this quiet that he was at the hotel and he would like to keep that to himself why he was there".

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why he doesn't want this to get back to his wife. You have his wife's name.

Do like bigger suggested and call her. Ask for confirmation about her sleeping on their couch and mention the hotel to her as well.

You want the truth?

This is a start in finding it.

If you choose to do nothing than you really do NOT want the truth and are just rug sweeping everything.

Again you came to SI for a reason.