Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
WS has no idea I know

Topic is Sleeping.
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Odonna ( Member #38401) posted at 11:29 PM on Wednesday, September 23rd, 2020

I just read your thread for the first time today.

You know, we all come here with our own experiences as filters for the advice we give others. When there are a lot of posts, the diversity of viewpoints itself can be of value, like turning a geode to the light in different directions and seeing what colors are revealed.

But be careful NOT to take what are intended as helpful perspectives too personally. Some advice just will not suit you, and if you internalize it too much you can lose hope in the "separating the wheat from the chaff" task and just move away and lose all the benefit you might gain here.

I hope you silence does not mean this has happened. I hope things are going better for you and that IC is working for both you and her, and your kids are stable and happy and your families supportive of what will be a long road EITHER to divorce or reconciliation. Either way will be long, but it may also take some time to get to the fork in the road where you know.

You are being true to YOU and to YOUR WAY of analyzing things and making decisions. She may not even realize yet what she wants either, you know.

Give yourself permission to take your time.

Hugs, Dear....

posts: 947   ·   registered: Feb. 8th, 2013   ·   location: Northern Virginia
id 8590784
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Thumos ( Member #69668) posted at 11:49 PM on Wednesday, September 23rd, 2020

I don’t disagree with the take your time advice. Take as much time as you need.

The only caution I have on this is that I had a lot of people telling me right after DDAY to take my time. They meant well but if I could go back four years I’d tell them to look me in the eye and say it again.

I’m saying that because an analogy comes to mind: would you take your time if you were on a sinking ship, or would you find the nearest life boat and get out?

It’s not a perfect analogy but it’s something to think about. Sometimes “take your time” becomes a crutch for inertia and then leads to limbo.

Just something to consider.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49
Married: Feb. 1996
DDAY: Dec. 20

posts: 4217   ·   registered: Feb. 5th, 2019   ·   location: UNITED STATES
id 8590786
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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 1:57 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

Hello again :)

It's been an incredibly difficult, busy and heartwrenching few weeks, and I do not see any end in sight.

I've taken steps to 180 (or my interpretaion of the 180). I still go running, but I've additionally joined a new gym

that's opened in the next town. I'm still struggling to eat, but I'm at least able to eat more than I was immediately

post-DDay. I'm drinking far less (think I've had the equivalent of a bottle of wine over the past three weeks), and

eating healthier while still cooking.

Sometimes it's easier, but I have an underlying feeling of sadness and humiliation which, on occasion, will flare up

into an anxiety or a panic attack. I'm able to ground myself, though it takes a minute or so.

We talk a lot about our feelings and thoughts now, and my personal feeling ranges from "she's making the effort" through

to "she's taking me for granted". There seems to be very little middle ground.

The good parts

* She has, for the most part (more on this in a minute), kept to the boundaries. If she has circumvented them in some

way, I've not seen evidence - yet.

* We have been out on a couple of nights out. Just the two of us. We had the kids taken care of and we went out. I

didn't drink, WS didn't drink much, and I drove. We had dinner together and shared in a fun evening without involving

anyone else. It felt a lot like the early days of our relationship.

* We have had more sex in the past two weeks than in the past year. She's been initiating and it's as good as it ever

was, just more of it.

* We talk a lot more about our relationship, and it feels like she is opening up more.

* Therapy has been excellent for me, as have the books that were recommended (I'm currently over half way through "Not

Just Friends"). WS is getting therapy too, and I don't intrude on that - she does volunteer some information here and

there though.

* We're looking at getting some MC once the IC has helped us address some of our individual issues.

The bad bits

* WS wrote a two-sided A4 letter to me explaining about how much she missed 'C' and how she wanted me to give C a second

chance. In it she explained that C was her best friend, and that she really wanted her back in our lives.

I explained that this was not going to happen, and that C had both lied to my face and enabled WS to consumate the

affair. I told her that I expect anyone who was an enabler to be cut out of our lives for good.

In a weird twist, the following day that she gave me that letter, C turned up at WS's work, and berated her for

causing C so much pain. C appears to have a massive victim complex, and was apparently got so worked up that she was

close to punching WS! WS related this incident to me that evening, and said that maybe C wasn't as good a friend as

she thought.

I'm still completely in the dark as to why she wrote the letter in the first place. It just seems self-centered at

best.

* She revealed (after I asked) that she had been in contact with C since we wrote out the boundaries. The next day, in

fact. I was not annoyed by the contact (I'd expect some wobble here or there), but I was thrown by the fact that this

was two weeks after the contact that she admitted to it and that *I* had to draw the truth out of her. It feels like

if she wanted to make an easy win at recovering some trust, then admitting to this without being asked would have

shown that she's willing to volunteer the truth. As it happens, being the one who had to get the truth out of her, I'm

wondering what else I haven't been told, and whether she really can start to rebuild.

* On our last evening out, it was going so well. We'd gone to get dessert at an icecream place, and as we were finishing

up, WS got a text from a friend asking her if we wanted to go to theirs for a drink. WS suggested that it'd be fun and

that we should go. I resisted.

I was driving, so I wouldn't be able to drink. If past situations were anything to go by, then this friendly drink

would be me sat sober while the three of them (WS, WS friend and her husband) got more drunk. I'd then have to drive

my drunk WS home where she would most likely pass out or fall asleep early, which was at odds withour original plan to

go home and have sex. I'd bought her some lingerie and was excited to give it to her (I'd always kind of resisted

giving lingerie as a gift as it felt a bit like telling her what to wear. Not sexist, but in some way controlling and

a bit old-fasioned. It turns out she loves the idea of being given underwear like that, so that's on me).

I related this, and she became moody. She sulked in the car on the way home until I explained it from the other point

of view: If we'd been out for an evening together - that we explicitly wanted to be between the two of us - and *I*

got a call from a friend asking me to go round for a drink, would she be so keen on the idea? She agreed that she

wouldn't and I also explained that if that was the case, then I wouldn't have entertained the idea for a second. If

we're out on a night out together (especially due to the context), then I certainly wouldn't suggest diverting the

evening and having friends join. It's not as if I could join in anyhow, and it'd just be a repeat of the situation

where I was a fifth wheel, outside of the group.

It appears that she just hadn't considered it from my point of view, which again seems extremely self-centered.

* Today, WS headed out on a work trip. She left the house looking fantastic, and horribly, I realised once she'd left

that her trip would bring her in proximity with the AP. Not close, but say within 45 mins (her route there takes her

past the town, so within 10 mins, though they wouldn't stop there). I checked, and she'd turned off location tracking

on her phone. My anxiety is peaking, and I feel awful. She turned location tracking back on on my request. Her

business partner is with her, and I trust her, but then I trusted 'C' too.

To be fair, in isolation, each of those things is fine. Just all together they cause me to panic.

So that's the update. There is more, obviously, but these highlight give a pretty good overview of wheere I am at. I'm

not sure if we're at reconcillation really, but I think we're working on the basis that we're rebuilding trust.

Housekeeping: Not sure if I need to move to another forum? Does this thread get moved or should I just start a new one

somewhere else?

posts: 20   ·   registered: Sep. 1st, 2020
id 8590898
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Tigersrule77 ( Member #47339) posted at 2:16 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

freefaller, i'm glad to hear your update, you seem to be in a better place. certainly, there are struggles, but that is going to happen.

I've taken steps to 180 (or my interpretaion of the 180).

This part is confusing. Typically, the 180 is for a BS who needs some space to think, while their WS is still in the A or in some space where they are not committed to R. From what you have written in your update, you seem to be committed to R and working on it, as is your WW. I don't think you can do the 180 or any form of it if you are having date nights and sex. My point is, if you are working on R, then do so. You need to be fully committed to R if you are doing it, not partially. Your WW has to be also.

I'm sure there is a lot more going on that you haven't discussed. You write about some good responses to situations with your WW and good discussions you have. I'm willing to bet you have also had some arguments as well.

Your WW seems to want to fall back into old habits. The drinks with friends is an example. She may need to be reminded that you two need to re-build your M, not try to go back to where you were.

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id 8590904
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DIFM ( Member #1703) posted at 2:20 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

It appears that she just hadn't considered it from my point of view, which again seems extremely self-centered.

Please to be aware that this view is the infidelity mindset. I am not saying she is cheating. But the frame of mind that she embraced that let her cheat is exactly this frame of mind. It is the core thinking that allows many supposedly fWS's to continue to heap infidelity trauma on their BS, even if no cheating is taking place. It does not "seem" self-centered, it is her still very real self-centerdness. It is not is seems. Empathy is incompatible with both her suggestion and how she reacted to your reaction. R is not possible without empathy from the cheater.

To be fair, in isolation, each of those things is fine. Just all together they cause me to panic.

I'm curious how turning off tracking, if that was an agreement, is not a significant issue, in isolation?

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id 8590906
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Jambomo ( Member #74853) posted at 2:25 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

I don’t mean this to come across as being harsh or unfair but I think that you seem to be going down the road of rug sweeping this now.

Your WW is breaking boundaries you have put in place by turning of her location and by pushing to keep C in her life. That and the couple dates that you have had, presents and sex all sound like trying to “get back to normal” and not trying to build something new. It certainly doesn’t sound like doing the 180.

There isn’t much indication of your WW trying to make herself a safe partner again - wanting to get drunk with friends when you are on a date together sounds like she isn’t valuing this time with you as much as she ought to for someone trying to rebuild their relationship and have a second chance.

I can only say this because it was the same as I did when I found out. You just want everything to be the same as before but it’s not and it should not be, she has to earn all this back again because she threw it away.

Just think about the message you want her to get and what you really want.

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steadychevy ( Member #42608) posted at 2:28 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

HB (hysterical bonding) seems to be a wonderful thing. WW finally initiates. There's more sex and it is really good sex. It's good while it lasts.

There is also a phenomenon called "hoovering". Hoovering is a techniques used to suck the BS back in. With me sex would be a powerful hoovering activity and was.

Meanwhile, the questions remain. The gut churns. In my case I didn't get any answers other than to questions that hit the mark exactly. There was never a recognition of a miss but it was close to something else that was then revealed. Nothing was volunteered.

It is your life and your decision, freefaller. It's pretty early to count on consistent behaviour changes and changes with which to make a permanent decision especially to R.

I concur with Thumos. Don't fall into limbo by doing nothing. It was 4 years after DDay1 before we separated with more than 2 of those where I was certain R wasn't in the picture. Those years were hell and were slowly killing me. Torture.

It is your decision. R is a great gift and should be received as such. If you get to the point that you think R is possible for you commit to it. She needs to as well and invest more in it. If D is your route, as it was for me, it is a valid and accepted result.

BH(me)70; XWW 64; M 42 yrs
DDay1-01/09/13;DDay2-26/10/13;DDay3-19/12/13;DDay4-21/01/14
LTA-09/02-06/06? OM - COW
"dates" w/3 lovers post engagement;ONS w/stranger post commitment, lies, lies, lies
Separated 23/09/2017; D 16/03/2020

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Thumos ( Member #69668) posted at 3:01 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

don’t mean this to come across as being harsh or unfair but I think that you seem to be going down the road of rug sweeping this now.

Agree unfortunately. Your WW has had no real consequences. Meanwhile she’s turning off location (and it’s hard to interpret this as anything other than a deliberate act to see if you’re watching), sulking about not being able to get fall down drunk, lapping up your lingerie gifts and pushing you to let a toxic friend and enemy of the marriage back into her life.

I’m not terribly impressed with what you report of her. She doesn’t seem to be trying all that hard.

I’m sorry I can’t remember - Did she ever read “How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair”? Did you? It’s the shortest of the books and the most blunt. It outlines an actual plan for a WS to become a rebuilder. You can read it yourself in an hour or two.

Why don’t you read that and cross compare with the things you’ve reported to us about what’s going on now? Just a thought. You might be surprised.

And you’re already contemplating MC in the not too distant future?

Red flags all around (or at least bright orange flags). HB can feel great, I know. Eventually you’re going to wonder what it’s all about and whether your WW is merely using sex for validation like she did with AP.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:11 AM, September 24th (Thursday)]

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49
Married: Feb. 1996
DDAY: Dec. 20

posts: 4217   ·   registered: Feb. 5th, 2019   ·   location: UNITED STATES
id 8590919
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Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 3:03 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

Hey brother.

Good to hear that you two are communicating better

I feel WW has some way to go. I have to agree with ‘Jambomo‘ a bit. Your spouse is thinking of you more, but is still focused on her self, her most important friend, and what is going on around her. Drinks with her friends etc. Good call on the telling when boundaries are breached. As you have eluded to there are consequences for actions taken. She is aware of this but is still gaslighting. Sorry, just my thoughts.

Take care as it is early days. One day at a time.

Buffer

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id 8590920
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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 3:22 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

WS is getting therapy too, and I don't intrude on that - she does volunteer some information here and

there though.

Please don't assume that "she's in the hands of a professional and therefore everything will be fine".

You need to constantly monitor (directly or indirectly) her progress in IC.

Why? the IC may encourage blaming you, the IC may validate affairs as just common reset of a LT relationship, the IC may encourage contact with C.

Finally, your wife may be outright lying to the IC (which defeats IC).

What can you do??? Ask what her IC thinks about ....?

For example:

1 - When the issue of C arises, ask her what her IC would say to that?

2 - When drinking issues arise, ask her what her IC would say to that?

3 - With respect to turning off location, what would her IC say to that?

4 - What does her IC recommend to rebuild trust?

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 9:29 AM, September 24th (Thursday)]

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id 8590928
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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 3:29 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

If past situations were anything to go by ...

I'd then have to drive my drunk WS home where she would most likely pass out or fall asleep early ...

IMO, if an adult (and parent of kids) routinely drinks until drunk (even drunk once a month or passes out once a year) then they have some sort of serious emotional issues behind the drinking.

If her 'friends' routinely drink until drunk, find new friends.

DOES HER IC KNOW ABOUT HER DRINKING PATTERN???

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bounceback67 ( New Member #69336) posted at 3:42 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

There is a Huge difference between your first post and your last! You seem to lay the blame for your WW cheating on C and whilst C may not be a very nice person she is not your Wife and didn't cheat on you.

Your WW is experiencing zero consequences apart from the loss of a dubious friendship

Good luck

posts: 15   ·   registered: Jan. 5th, 2019
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HellFire ( Member #59305) posted at 3:42 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

So she is close to AP today, and deliberately turned off her location.

That's more than slightly suspicious.

Ok, she turned it back on after you asked her to. You need to focus on the fact that she turned it off,and the fact that she would be near him. That's not a huge,waving red flag. That's a red flag slapping you in the face.

posts: 3706   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8590933
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Stinger ( Member #74090) posted at 3:44 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

One would think someone intent on reconciling would be doing a much better job in abiding by boundaries and demonstrating empathy. This is not happening in your wife's case.

And why in hell would she turn off the gps tracker ,especially on a trip that brought her in proximity to her AP? That is very disturbing. What was her explanation?

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 24th, 2020
id 8590934
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Mrhealed ( Member #46868) posted at 4:11 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

If she is trying to earn your trusth, why was her location tracking off???

You are not her guardian, or thing to control her. I just thinking that this should be a iniciative on her end.

Are you sure her coworker wans t aware if her Affair?

"Infidelity is not a victimless offense. If she cheats on me, then I am a victim. If she intentionally cheats on me then I am an intended victim." by DoneGone

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id 8590939
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Odonna ( Member #38401) posted at 4:35 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

Reconciliation is a process, not a switch you can flip. It takes a long time, and you may second-guess yourself along the way. It is early days.

The Linda McDonald is the single best thing you and she can read right now. I cannot recommend it enough, as it teaches you what to look for and teaches her the gravity of what she has done and how to take concrete action to re-build.

Feel free to continue to post here - I think the limit is 50 pages. That way your progress - and patterns - are readily followed and examined. You will get better advice, and those really interested in your story will know where to look to learn developments and no go hunting around.

posts: 947   ·   registered: Feb. 8th, 2013   ·   location: Northern Virginia
id 8590952
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 4:35 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

What you do is call her and ask why she turned off location services on the phone.

You tell her that trust is at an all-time low, that’s normal and to be expected after discovering infidelity. The only way it can be rebuilt is with constant affirmation from her. Its not as if you want or need to be her warden, but that if she wants this marriage she should be offering these tools of assurance by default.

You point out that the trip places her close to the AP and that you have normal fears about that.

You remind her that she is totally free to see OM, totally free to not help you gain trust. You neither can prevent her from seeing him, nor want to if that’s what she wants.

But… if she does it’s inevitable that you will find out so it’s better if she’s honest about it. She is totally free to chose not to be in this marriage.

You tell her that even though you want to reconcile, then ongoing contact and/or a constant fear of ongoing contact erodes whatever belief you might have that reconciliation is possible.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 9858   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8590953
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Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 4:50 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

Several pages back I commented that it seemed unlikely that the AP and C had not responded to your WW’s NC letters.

I now see she did communicate with at least C. How did they communicate? Why did it bypass how you were Monitoring.

I think it important for her to show you all the messaging between them. What was her reasoning for bringing C back into her life? It’s a ridiculous thing to ask and shows she is not on a remorseful path at all.

Same with the AP. How did he respond. You should know.

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3163   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
id 8590961
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Sunspot ( Member #74231) posted at 4:56 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

What you do is call her and ask why she turned off location services on the phone.

Just popping in as a software tech guy... if the phone is Android, it will sometimes turn location services off on its own, if the battery gets low or if it loses connectivity for too long.

iPhone does not do this.

Just putting this here in case she has Android claims she didn't turn it off, so OP knows that it is at least possible that she really didn't.

posts: 59   ·   registered: Apr. 16th, 2020   ·   location: USA
id 8590963
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Wanttobebetter ( Member #72484) posted at 5:12 PM on Thursday, September 24th, 2020

I checked, and she'd turned off location tracking

on her phone. My anxiety is peaking, and I feel awful. She turned location tracking back on on my request.

I was wondering the same thing. What is her reasoning for turning it off the first place?

posts: 135   ·   registered: Jan. 6th, 2020
id 8590970
Topic is Sleeping.
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