Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
WS has no idea I know

Topic is Sleeping.
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MickeyBill2016 ( Member #56459) posted at 4:29 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

It's too bad that she is not self aware yet about the little things. She may get there.

Keeping the pretty photo with with post coital glow as her IG photo is thoughtless and hurtful.

Photos can be powerful triggers/reminders, there was a couple here where every day the WW would get up,get ready for work and send her AP a selfie...the AP saw her all happy and ready to start a new day before her BH. The kyw is that the first thing on her mind in the am was her boyfriend.

Are there photos she is saving, mementos of the fun times at the park?

9 years married.
13 years divorced.

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id 8584871
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Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 4:37 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Also. What has she heard from the AP and C? I cannot believe they both received “get out of my life forever “ messages from your WW and they did not respond at all.

Tell her she is never allowed to delete any messages from her phone, ever again and she needs to show you all messages from these two assholes and anything else that pertains to the affair.

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3163   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 5:00 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Tell her she is never allowed to delete any messages from her phone, ever again and she needs to show you all messages from these two assholes and anything else that pertains to the affair.

Stevesn is on the right track, but I suggest a different approach.

IF you work at reconciliation your goal should be a healthy marriage. Yes – the infidelity will always be in your history and there is a need for a different type of trust, but the marriage can’t be based on you being the warden and she the prisoner.

You do that and it can become a game of cat-and-mouse. Sort of like my lab who knows he’s not allowed in the carpeted living-room, so he lies fully extended with his rear-legs touching the hardwood floor outside the living-room thinking in his dog-brain “I’m complying with the rules”.

Instead of telling her stuff like:

You are never allowed to delete any message on your phone

[therefore making you angry when she deletes the reminder for her dentist appointment last week…]

You say something along the lines of:

Actions such as deleting messages, being secretive about your phone and so on erode whatever belief I have in us reconciling. To establish trust, it’s necessary that you let me know of any contact from OM, C or anyone or anything that relates to the affair or the time of the affair.

What you want is that she is coming to you offering assurances, rather than you monitoring her and keeping her under lock and chain.

You constantly do monitor her in these early days, but it’s more to verify her actions than to keep her under guard.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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id 8584884
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beenthereinco ( Member #56409) posted at 5:28 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Everyone here is correct. There really is no way that C and the AP didn't reach out to her somehow even if it was just to say "OK". I wouldn't let this pass. She has to be honest that is what you've established and to say she has heard nothing from either one is just beyond belief.

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Westway ( Member #71747) posted at 7:29 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

She has found a MC for us to see together. I did not suggest this, and this was done on her

own initiative. She had spoken to a friend who has been through something similar (though as a BS, not a WS), and

she (the friend, lets call her 'Z') said that MC worked very well.

Your money will be better spent retaining a solicitor. It is way to early for MC right now. Demand that your WW go into independent counseling, with a pro-marriage counselor who can help her understand why she thought it would be perfectly fine to destroy her family. After she has made progress and shown TRUE remorse, then you can think about MC.

Also, make sure she gets a full STD screening.

DNA test your children. Don't assume they are yours.

Me: 52;

XWW: 50 y.o. serial cheater

Married 22 years, Together 24
2 Daughters: aged 16 and 20
DDay: 9/20/19
Divorced 12/03/20.

posts: 1366   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2019   ·   location: USA
id 8584936
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Kaliber ( Member #74046) posted at 8:58 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Westway:

Your money will be better spent retaining a solicitor. It is way to early for MC right now. Demand that your WW go into independent counseling, with a pro-marriage counselor who can help her understand why she thought it would be perfectly fine to destroy her family. After she has made progress and shown TRUE remorse, then you can think about MC.

Also, make sure she gets a full STD screening.

DNA test your children. Don't assume they are yours.

This is correct freefaller, MC can turn very bad for you, some MC will even say that you wife is a victim of bad marriage or something around that line, and she will use this against you, be careful, don't gamble with MC right now, hat you both need is IC with someone that has experience in dealing with infidelity, I can't stress this enough!

Also, STD screening is a must for both of you, it's also an extra layer for her to be shameful of what she did, that experience will echo hard how she was reckless with her health and family's health.

DNA test your child that you have together.

freefaller even if you know your child is %100 yours, it's not just about that, it's an added layer of the broken trust, and also it will serve as a huge slap in her face of how she broke her own family by her betrayal.

[This message edited by Kaliber at 3:00 PM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

You don't have a choice of being a victim, but you always have a choice of remaining one!

posts: 145   ·   registered: Mar. 13th, 2020   ·   location: Germany
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Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 9:16 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Please I just want to say well put Westway and Kaliber.^^^

IC first to address the reasons why she thought it was so cool to be like C. Then after understanding her issues then MC.

Keep looking after yourself and the children.

R U ok?

One day at a time.

Buffer

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M1965 ( Member #57009) posted at 9:46 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

freefaller,

Interesting choice of name. It does seem to me that you are rushing through this pretty quickly, possibly because you want to feel like ‘the crisis is over’. I get that; everyone here wished things could be better instantly.

The trouble is, there are stages that need to be worked through and completed before you can go on to the next stage, and rushing through them all at the same time carries the risk that real change will not happen.

I apologize if it seems like I am giving you a hard time. I am trying to get you to see that what you are doing is not in your best interest, particularly not at this point in time.

As WS has expressed a deep desire (as far as I can tell) to try to rebuild, I said that I would cancel the divorce solicitor appointment, that she did not have to tell the kids today, and that she could come back home…

There are a lot of contradictions between your words, your actions, and your feelings.

You say that you are angry and tense, and that you do not believe a word your wife says. And yet you cancelled the divorce consultation because of what your wife said, and you told her she can come home immediately. So how angry and disbelieving are you?

Your words say one thing, but your actions say you trust her completely, and it only took a few words for her to talk her way out of divorce. What signals do you think that sent to her?

Do not cancel that appointment.

Cancelling the appointment so quickly tells your wife that she is safe and fine before she has done even one hundredth of the work she needs to complete before you can feel confident that she has really changed, and may be a safe life partner for you.

The divorce consultation was not for your wife. It was for you. It will give you an idea of what divorce would look like and cost, and that is something that you need to know, because nothing about your wife and her potential future actions can be treated with any confidence.

And going for the consultation reinforces to your wife that you were not kidding about divorce, and that it is still a potential outcome if she does not change her ways.

Keep that appointment, and get the information.

Having the consultation is not the same as initiating divorce proceedings; it is just a consultation. There are plenty of people here who have started divorce proceedings and then stopped them after several months.

Depending on your location, divorce could take more than a year, possibly closer to two, so there is plenty of time to call one off at any point.

Also, although opinion is divided about how effective they are, it would be worth asking your wife is she would consent to drawing up a post-nuptial agreement. Her response will be enlightening for you, and it is another thing that you can talk through in your consultation.

Seriously, for your own protection, and the protection of your kids, you need to have that consultation and get the important information it will provide.

I asked WS if she had completed the timeline. She had. It's a fairly dry recounting of the facts, but it's a start, and it can be refined.

The basic timeline is good, but it sounds like it is lacking in the information that is really going to indicate why your wife acted the way she did, and that is all the emotional motivations of the affair, and the psychological rewards that your wife got from her actions. That is the stuff that she is going to have to explore in depth and at length, if she really is committed to changing to become a safe life partner for you.

She is going to have to explore whether she got off on the deception, or being ‘bad’, or if she has some kind of sexual addiction. The posting of that Instagram profile picture and the circumstances in which it was taken suggests that she enjoy secrets, and she needs to explain why she chose that particular picture and what she got out of doing that.

As another member said, the fact that your wife threatened her affair partner that if they did not get together she would go on Tinder – and she even started a Tinder account – indicates that she is manipulative and was the aggressor in the affair. She needs to fully explain that and account for it, because if she does not, she cannot fix it.

You said that you found a morning-after contraceptive pill in your wife’s bag that simply disappeared at the same time that she was having sex with her affair partner. That suggests that he did not wear a condom, which means that she was exposing herself and you to whatever diseases her AP may have been incubating.

Very stupid, and very risky. Your wife needs to account for why she did that, and explore whether she gets off on taking risks.

She has found a MC for us to see together. I did not suggest this, and this was done on her own initiative. She had spoken to a friend who has been through something similar (though as a BS, not a WS), and she (the friend, lets call her 'Z') said that MC worked very well.

Be very, very careful that there is absolutely no blame for your wife’s actions put on you or the marriage. The marriage did not cheat; your wife did. And even while you knew the affair was active, your wife was looking you in the eyes and telling you that she loved you, loved the marriage, and loved everything that you had.

If those things were true, why has she scheduled sessions to fix a marriage she herself described as close to perfect? The marriage is not where the problems here lie; they lie in your wife, and her enjoyment of risk and deception.

I didn't shout or act out violently, but I was seething with frustration and rage. I cooked tea for us both.

If there is one thing that you need to get from individual counselling, it is to find a way to honestly communicate your true feelings. You have a right to your feelings, and not expressing them honestly benefits no-one.

You were seething with frustration and rage, but you suppressed those feelings and acted in a way that masked them, and then you cooked dinner for your wife.

freefaller, why do you put so much pressure on yourself to be a nice guy?

If I had to guess, I imagine that is how you were brought up. Be nice, be polite, don’t shout, never express your anger, internalize it, and then turn it on yourself. Even if you have been abused, you do not allow yourself to express your feelings to the people who have abused you and rip them a proverbial new one. You have to be nice. Be calm. Make dinner. Go for a run.

That is not written as any kind of criticism, but out of genuine concern for your well-being. Bottling all of that crap up is not healthy for you, and if you are hurt or angry, there are times when it is good to let other people know that.

I am not saying that you should start expressing your angst with a baseball bat – that is going too far in the other direction! – but I really hope your individual counsellor can help you find ways to feel more comfortable with expressing your true feelings and stop beating yourself up for having them.

She's in work today, and I feel really anxious. I ask her bunch of questions, so I must sound like a paranoid loon.

You see, there’s an example. You express your anxiety and insecurity – perfectly understandable after what has happened – and you put it in a negative light. Honestly, freefaller, everyone feels that insecure after infidelity, and for good reason.

Like others here, I feel it is a bit too early in your process for marriage counselling, but you can try it and see how it goes. The real areas where progress needs to be made is in individual counselling.

Your wife has an awful lot of work to do on why she was comfortable being so deceptive and taking stupid risks with unprotected sex with a man who could have been a walking biohazard, why she established a support team for her cheating, and why she ignored your anxiety and unhappiness and instead focused on herself.

Your individual counsellor can help you get through the worst of the moods swings, and help you to feel more comfortable with expressing your true feelings rather than burying anything negative and then feeling angry with yourself.

You are a good man, freefaller, and you need to stop beating yourself up. Your wife did this because of her, not because of you.

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 10:20 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

IMO you're giving her too much credit for things she was probably advised to do by her friend at work (and her best friend C).

I agree that cancelling the consultation with the attorney and then over the weekend acting like nothing happened by going back to your routine sends her the wrong message.

Plus the brief timeline was her doing the 'minimum'. That's a red flag.

Why? because waywards assume/hope that just the passage of time will heal you and that eventually you will suck it up and move on. By hiding your anger and pain and distrust you are validating that assumption.

It will take you guys 3-5 years to rebuild trust. It's way too soon to reward her.

Experience shows that in her current state of mind, she perceives your action (consciously or unconsciously) as a weakness in your resolve to divorce her - and a weakness she can take advantage of in the future which makes her unsafe.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 4:22 PM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

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Westway ( Member #71747) posted at 10:22 PM on Tuesday, September 8th, 2020

Damn I'm craving some some tea....

Me: 52;

XWW: 50 y.o. serial cheater

Married 22 years, Together 24
2 Daughters: aged 16 and 20
DDay: 9/20/19
Divorced 12/03/20.

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smolderingdark ( Member #64064) posted at 12:16 AM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

freefaller,

You should still speak with a lawyer and make preparations for D regardless of whether or not

you choose to go through with it and file. Be prepared.

For some cheating is a deal breaker no matter how hard they try to reconcile. I suspect you are such a person from what all that you have posted about your thoughts and feelings toward your wayward wife.

That being said I am a pessimist and you are still very early into your unfortunate experience. Experts say reconciliation can take 2-5 years. Good luck whatever course you choose but choose to be prepared.

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id 8585072
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KingofNothing ( Member #71775) posted at 12:44 AM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

I told WS

to come up with something to tell the girls and to tell me what she is going to say

Horrible idea. Best to collaborate on this and BOTH present it. You have suddenly decided to trust your wife explicitly after, what.. not even a week after D Day?? You are sending out extremely mixed messages to your wife now.

Giving up on divorce consultation this soon?

Weeeeeelll keep his or her number, because I have a feeling you’ll be calling that number again. Your wife has already grown accustomed to breaking boundaries of fidelity. She may be truly remorseful, maybe. I’m not really getting that vibe myself, and there’s no way you can tell with certainty in such a hotel period of time. This is not meant to punish her, it’s to make you feel safe, and to communicate to her there are consequences to adultery. I would not be so ready to trusting of a spouse this quickly, in your shoes. But, hey what do I know. You are the man on point here.

Rex Nihilo, the King of Nothing
----------------------------------
“If you’re going through hell, keep going. Just please stop screaming, it’s not good for morale.”
— Winston Churchill

BS 3 DDays/Attempted R, it failed. In a better place

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20yrsagoBS ( Member #55272) posted at 1:06 AM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

Go for divorce and save yourself the shit of working through the crap with a Cheater

BW, 54 WH 53
When you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas

posts: 2101   ·   registered: Sep. 21st, 2016   ·   location: Tampa Bay Area, Florida
id 8585093
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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 9:37 AM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

OK, let's all just relax a second here. I feel there is a bit of projection and and a few assumptions too many in these

replies. I'm not attacking anyone, but I think it's important I am clear with what my actual stance is and what I'm

doing.

Firstly, divorce *is* the default option. If there is no progress made from HER side in a week, month, two months,

etc... and she can't come to the point where she can give me a reason for her deception, lack of communication and all

of the other things that are so broken in HER, then yeah, divorce is the way it will go.

As we spoke about before in this thread, that is always how it has been. I have to explain to her and make it known that

the marriage is lost, and that only actions on her part can put the divorce off. If enough progress is made and we can

start down a recovery path, then that is something for a later date. I am simply pushing back the date at which the

divorce is started. If this means I can hold off paying my solicitor an ~$2000 retainer (I'm not in the US, but it's

pretty much a universal currency), then so be it. More money in my pocket. I have made her aware that I'm holding off

these meetings, not cancelling them entirely.

I have aready had a consultation, and understand the process. This next meeting was just for the practical points of

setting up retainers and determining the specific approach. It's an extra step I wanted to take just prior to

instructing them to begin.

She is following through with the boundaries, and I'm looking into ways of firming them up (chat messages can be

deleted, apps can be removed, etc...) so that I can verify that they aren't being used or that the messages being sent

are within bounds easily. This may include some form of monitoring software. Not sure yet.

DNA test for kids sounds like a good idea. If nothing more than for my own piece of mind.

STD tests are arriving in the mail (COVID means no in-person appointments)

Cooking tea was for my sanity. Cooking makes me happy, and I enjoy the process. It gives me something to focus on and

helps let go of stress. I started cooking tea last night too, but had to confront her about something she'd said

to AP about us "never having sex", and when we did, "it was boring". I was furious, and made it known how humiliating it

was. She explained that it was not true, and she was not sure why she had said it. I told her to "think on" and come to

me with an explanation. It pissed me off, so I told her to finish cooking tea, then I gave a friend a call to talk it

over.

The thing with telling the kids was twofold. One so that she could compose something and research how best to do it so I

could review in case we need to use it, and secondly, to put her on notice that this is a very real possibility. To

drive home the situation. If we use it, we will of course both be there to tell the girls, and we'll both be helping

them through it. I want it to be absolutely clear that my kids are my primary focus, and getting them through this with

minimal disruption is the only thing that I want to be certain of. The decision to not tell them was made by *me* so

that we don't unnecessarily burden them.

We are definitely not back to our normal routine, and I want to make absolutely clear that the only reason I am trying

to remain calm is that I do not like being angry, jelous or unhappy. All that I am doing at the moment is putting a safe

boundary around me so that I can process and come to terms with the loss of the future I thought we had. Those plans are

all ash right now. I need to restart thinking about my future, and whether WS is a part of that is up to her, but it is

too early to make a determination. I need to work through my raw feelings before I can make any progress here - it's all

clouded at the moment by negativity.

I'm just working through this with my kids and my own best interests. If WS wants to start to recover, she has a long

road to travel, and I cannot help her figure out her own problems. I'm not some cuck who's ready to follow, shaking and

obedient, like an abused dog.

posts: 20   ·   registered: Sep. 1st, 2020
id 8585165
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Mrhealed ( Member #46868) posted at 11:18 AM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

Freefaller,.

Great post!

Seems like on top on been cehated on, you were abused and badmouthed. And considering that not much time has passed, IMO you should consider that even if your WW does everything rigth to R, It may not be enougth!

Unfortunathly, getting out of infidelity is not a Marth formula but an unknown path that is different for everyone, and other experience just gives a the tool to walk it.

Good luck

"Infidelity is not a victimless offense. If she cheats on me, then I am a victim. If she intentionally cheats on me then I am an intended victim." by DoneGone

posts: 960   ·   registered: Feb. 19th, 2015   ·   location: Madrid
id 8585173
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clouds777 ( Member #72442) posted at 11:39 AM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

From what you've written,it really sounds likely that her cheating is a deal breaker for you. I just want to say that if that's the case, don't be too hard on yourself. It was for me too - I tried to reconcile for way too long because I thought it was best but for me, it was a deal breaker and eventually I accepted that and ended it. I felt terribly guilty but I had nothing to feel guilty about, just like you wouldn't if you decided cheating is just a deal breaker.

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id 8585178
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Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 12:16 PM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

Sorry Brother

cooking tea last night too, but had to confront her about something she'd said to AP about us "never having sex", and when we did, "it was boring". I was furious, and made it known how humiliating it was.

That is just nasty.

May I ask what her thought process was?

You know, ‘I didn’t really mean it. Was in a fog, C thought it was a good idea’.

Quite possibly she was trying to put you down and boost APs ego, at the same time.

You have attacked this head on, keep looking after the children and yourself. No one is having a go. Just friendly advice from a been there done that viewpoint.

One day at a time

[This message edited by Buffer at 6:28 AM, September 9th (Wednesday)]

Buffer

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fareast ( Member #61555) posted at 12:39 PM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

freefaller:

You’ve received a lot of good advice here, but as you can see you will get a lot of different opinions, some seeming harsh and a projection. You seem to be in a good mindset to sift out the advice that serves you. Take the advice you can use and leave the rest. Keep taking care of you. Watch your WW’s actions and not her words. You will be riding an emotional rollercoaster for a long period, stay steady and keep working at healing and getting stronger.

[This message edited by fareast at 6:40 AM, September 9th (Wednesday)]

Never bother with things in your rearview mirror. Your best days are on the road in front of you.

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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 12:58 PM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

@clouds777 The only truth at this moment that I can get out of my head is that *I do not know* if it is a dealbreaker. It's very important for me to reiterate, and for you all to hear this. I do not know right now, and I want to find out. Details can get lost in writing, and I know I'm not the greatest writer. I'm not criticizing or being defensive, I just want to be clear.

I appreciate your input, help and patience @clouds777. Thank you :) I'm not going to be hard on myself, as this is all out of my control. All I can do, as you say, is to take care of the kids and myself. I'm glad you found some resolution and did the right thing for yourself.

@Buffer

RE thought process: She says she doesn't know why she said it, and that the last time we had sex, she loved it. I told her that's not an explanation, and I want her to tell me why she said it. She again said she didn't know, and I repeated that I wanted to know *WHY* she said it, and that it is something she needs to think long and hard about. The same applies to the photos. I need to know why, and being absent minded does not cut it. She agreed, and promised to work on it.

I'm on a mission to understand for my own sake, not hers. Her issues are hers to fix. The questions I'm asking are to provide me with some form of closure on each of these fine points separately and as I require.

My impression of the boring sex comment is that she was trying to justify the reason she was trying to arrange the hook-up to herself as well as ego-stroke AP. It's up to her to get the truth though.

I reiterated today that I'm undecided on continuing our relationship and that the only way any rebuilding can begin is for her to make regular, significant progress. Plart of that is finding the answers for the questions I have.

Without this forum, I honestly don't know what I would have done. Thank you all.

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id 8585198
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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 1:16 PM on Wednesday, September 9th, 2020

She says she doesn't know why she said it

Remind her that "I dont' know why I did or said something" actually says to you that she's at high risk to repeat. She can't fix what she can't identify.

IMO she's resisting digging down to the 'why' (and using soft terms to describe her behavior) in order to protect her self image. Her journey takes time (as does yours).

A more detailed timeline (not just the sex but including what she was thinking before during and afterwards, as well as all of their conversations/topics) will help her get to where she needs to be in order to make herself a safe partner.

This is a journey she needs to take whether you guys D or R.

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id 8585211
Topic is Sleeping.
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