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This guy is the same guy who I used to work with. He is an arrogant POS as bad as they come.

With respect to her meeting with him in person via phone, how do you even control that?

What’s to stop her from ending it via phone, then saying she is going to meet with one of her friends then hooking up in person with him?

I need a full-time PI to police that and for what? The ILLUSION that she followed what I asked her.

I honestly don’t think you can control a situation like this - if she really wants to get around it, she will.

[This message edited by Awoken at 2:08 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

Divorce her and be done with her. Call her parents tonight and tell them what has been going on. Tell them their daughter is a cheater, fraud and manipulator. Call your parents and tell them.

Blow up her world.

Westway, although I would love to do that, it’s not the smartest thing to do - still need to get my ducks in a row with the lawyer.

I have zero interest in ultimatums - I think they are weak.

Unfortunately, ultimatums have gotten a bad rap on the backs of those that are unable or unwilling to treat than as real ultimatums. It is NOT an ultimatum if it is not applied. It becomes something else.

For those that are resolute to apply the ultimatum, they can indeed be valuable tools. If one can't follow through, I would say, don't cheapen it's value and purpose by using it as a weak ploy.

But if I have to issue an ultimatum to get her to stay with me, what does that say about me?

I am negotiating desire which cannot be negotiated.

Awoken, I suggest you focus on yourself and your own healing. Your WW is not going to. Her actions are showing you that she is a selfish person and she is only interested in doing what she wants. Example - SHE wants to end it in person. Why? She cares too much about AP to just call him and tell him it's over. Her needs outweigh yours. Yours don't really matter at all.

SHE wants all of this hard stuff to be over so you can "just move on". This means she wants you to rugsweep the A, pretend it never happened and you still have perfect M.

You REALLY need to start the 180. Any communication you have with her, isn't going to help you. She lies and she is only interested in herself. Stop engaging with her. You will heal much faster.

Agree with you about blowing up her life. Telling her parents serves no purpose. But it sounds like at this point you've decided on your direction and will end the marriage. Like you said get your ducks in a row.

Your father in law does sound like he is someone who can read people well. I would maybe suggest talking to him and ask him if he has seen a change in his daughter over the years and see what he says. But again this is your marriage to her and shouldn't be about blowing things up.

This is the point where you get to heal and fix yourself and not worry about her. She'll need to figure things out on her own.

But if I have to issue an ultimatum to get her to stay with me, what does that say about me?

Yes, you cannot have an ultimatum that says, if you don't desire me I will leave. But, there are other demonstrable, less feelings based things that can be the subject of ultimatums, so long as the BS has the backbone to follow through. Maybe you don't have any of those things that apply. One example that comes to mind is the insistence that the WS goes to IC to figure out why their shit is so broken. Poly is an ultimatum option. But, yes, you can't ultimatum feelings.

Not interested in a Poly - if I had to do that I would just move on.

She doesn’t believe in counselling and to be honest neither do I. There are a lot of therapists out there worse off in their own lives than their patients, not to mention the biases they have.

I tried IC myself once about 2 years into sexless marriage and it was a waste of time.

So far your WW is doing everything wrong. Everything. If she was remotely interested in R and lacked the fundamental, instinctive, intuitive, and common sense actions and responses that usually come naturally from true remorse and are necessary to save something you truly love (you-your marriage), she could have at least, at the very least, F-ing Googled it! She’s not even attempting to effectively fake true remorse by following-rotely, the check boxes of what a remorseful person should say and do and what not to say and do. She is actively trying to save her skin and control the outcome.

Her tools so far:

-Hysterical Bonding (HB)

-Sex Bombing

-Love Bombing

-Blame Games

-Minimizing

-Rewriting of marital history

-Ultimatums

-Victimizing herself

-Tears (there’s a chemical in tears that softens resolve)

You, after 18 years of being deprived, denied intimacy, are extremely susceptible to manipulation via HB and SB.

You, being so ready to blame yourself, are extremely susceptible the latter forms of manipulation.

No Contact (NC). Needs to be done immediately and under your terms-not hers, with you in attendance.

Aside from the extreme trauma of betrayal, denying you physical intimacy and redirecting it to another man for 18 years, is extremely abusive. I can’t begin to imagine the cumulative damage that alone has caused you. Her reasons to you for doing so are nonsensical. I think the real reasons are pretty clear.

The decision to R or D is extremely personal and situational. However, certain requirements to successfully R are relatively universal. True remorse is fundamental. What True Remorse looks like is subjective but, has certain unmistakable characteristics. There’s a lot of good info in The Healing Library on it.

Make your decisions going forward very selfishly. Make them with YOU in mind. Not her. Not her reputation. Not her future. Not your family’s image. Not her family’s welfare in mind. Not even your kids. This is all about you now.

Oh, and stay off the dating sites. She will use that shit against you to validate her “reasons” for cheating on you.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 2:50 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

Awoken,

You seem resolute to [D]ivorce. That is understandable.

This being said, there is no reason for the time your are forced to still co-habit that you have to put up with any further disrespect from her.

She will not meet her boyfriend while under your roof. Period. It's not an ultimatum, it's a ground rule and breaking it has the consequence of having to move out immediately.

You don't have to police it, but you can make an inquiry or two.

You have not yet found your anger and unless you are on the Autistic spectrum, which I doubt, I afraid that your calm demeanor is the calm before the storm.

Check yourself, have a [V]oice [A]ctivated [R]ecorder with you at all times should you have interactions with her. Not only will this protect you legally in terms of what she said, but if you know you are being recorded, it makes you think twice before speaking or acting in anger.

Maybe nothing of what I said applies, take what you need from whomever can help you here and discard the rest.

Strength to you.

Dude you need to get serious.

and to his credit he said it wasn’t his place to break up her marriage

The guy was banging your WW for 18 years off and on and you are giving him credit? Seriously its actually a very silly statement & something your WW would actually spout out as its verbal diarrhea

You need to stop worrying about what others will think and more about what is best for you. You were never in a M you were in a hole and your WW put you there and you let her. Time to climb up out of that hole and continue on with your life and put your WW down the hole.

For all the wrongs your wife has done to you both physically & verbally she has faced zero consequences - ZERO. Time to unload. You need to tell her the next time u see her:

Text the POSOM & tell him to FO and never contact her again (NC). If she refuses you tell her you're done and file immediately.

Ask for the contact info for the POSOM & his BS now. If she refuses tell her you're done & you file immediately.

Ask for a timeline of the A. If she refuses tell her you're done & file immediately.

She does not get the option of deciding when to call the POS & meeting him in person no f'in way. If she insists tell her your done & file immediately.

Ask for the passcode on all her communication devices, all passwords for social media sites & if she refuses tell her you're done & file immediately.

You are way to easy on her why? Cause you love her? Like she has loved you for the past number of years whiles she's been banging another man & bad mouthing you? Seriously.

I really see nothing, zero worth saving in you're sham of a M if you could even call it that.

Sending strength my man

[This message edited by notanotherchance at 2:56 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

My anger stage happened in late March after I realized she was lying. It was a shock to me but I still did not know definitively. I went for a drive and yelled and screamed at the top of my lungs non-stop.

I then realized that I was resposible for all this (NOT her cheating ultimately, but everything else). I realized that since it was all my fault, I can change it and am not a victim. So I channelled that anger into lifting weights.

Today was 100 consecutive workouts since January and I am as strong or stronger than I was when I was 18 in a lot of lifts.

I am STILL angry at myself for all the wasted years and burying my head in the sand, but I can’t look back only forward, and I channel that anger as productively as I can and it’s been very productive so far, at least from a health and fitness standpoint.

I don't get all the more recent posts about ultimatums and demands.

It seems to me Awoken has already decided to rid himself of this mess. Personally, I think that's exactly the right decision. She hasn't really been his 'wife' for a very long time. Now it's time to make it official.

And I think it's prudent to keep things close to the vest until he gets his legal ducks in a row.

And, when he's ready (hopefully sooner rather than later), simply move forward. Inform whomever needs to know. And get it done. He sounds successful enough that the splitting of assets may be a bit of an issue, but he doesn't sound devastated by the fact assets will be split.

Informing others, at the moment, is not a priority. The parents in law currently have the wrong idea about what's going on, but soon enough they'll know. And I believe they'll respect him for not just trashing their daughter and going off half-cocked.

I think you're doing the right thing the right way Awoken. Sorry to hear about you being in this position, but you know it started long ago and never really got better. And she's doing absolutely nothing when it comes to reconciliation. So, who really gives a shit whether she continues to reach out to AP? Like, literally, so what?

[This message edited by justsayno at 2:57 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

Her needing to talk to him in person is just wrong. If she truly ends it they will have "one last time" together. She needs to end it now

What's the point of trying to let her end it if Awoken is going to move on with his life?!

The cheating was so long and deep!

Awoken, you are right, no need to talk to her or ask her to do any thing regarding the affair, you are divorcing her any way, so don't waste your energy on it and focus on moving on.

For those that ask about Muslims and who they can marry, I lived many years in the middle east and Muslim men can ONLY marry Muslims, Christians, Jews women but Muslim women can only marry Muslim men.

In the middle east (and Muslim countries in general) infidelity rate is very very low, but again divorce is very easy (max three months if initiated) because if you get caught (men or women) and you are married it could mount up (in some countries) to a capital punishment if proven, so it's not fun and games!

Or the family of the adulterer will kill you or get disowned which is the bare minimum, getting disowned because infidelity means you will never be able to marry again ever.

If your single and you commit adultery you don't get capital punishment but you get disowned, again no one will marry you (many many times if it's a women who commits this crime gets killed by her family)

Yes, infidelity over there is extremely serious with devastating consequences, that's why the rate of it is very low, plus they are more connected to their religion compared Christians/Jews living in the west.

I worked in a company in one of the golf states where a friend of mine his brother was shot and killed by the cousins of a female that his brother had a relationship with, they found out went to him shot him with an AK-47 on the street in his car, no ifs or buts, the state didn't do any thing to the cousins they just wrapped it up, however, the girl wasn't killed because she wasn't married but they put her on house arrest probably for the rest of her life, but most common the female gets killed, this girl if she was married they would have killed her, infidelity is a big shame there and affects the whole family and it's reputation.

Sometimes I wish we had half of these consequences in the west!

Awoken, a fresh start in life is what you really need, the betrayal was long and the disrespect was very deep!

I wish you the best of luck!

[This message edited by Kaliber at 3:09 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]

The POSOM is a different nationality I take it. Is she not worried about not just incompatibility in religion but also in culture? Or are the cultures involved very similar?

I am trying to understand her thinking and attraction to this POS. Would you mind saying what countries are involved as I have quite a bit of experience with this sort of thing and could possibly offer better advice.

So besides the vague reference of getting your ducks in a row, what exactly is the plan to get yourself out of infidelity? I think you are still living with her, she continues to talk to her lover, you continue talking to her about your relationship with her, she suffers no consequences. Everything seems hunky dory..... FOR HER.

The more I read, the more you seem your resolve to D is diminishing, just my opinion. It's been six months since you knew and the ducks should be neatly in a row by now should you have decided to get out of this relationshit.

Sorry dude but your WW doesn't seem like R material, far from it. Save yourself now run.

I then realized that I was resposible for all this (NOT her cheating ultimately, but everything else). I realized that since it was all my fault, I can change it and am not a victim.

I am STILL angry at myself for all the wasted years and burying my head in the sand, but I can’t look back only forward

Why are you blaming yourself? This was her choice. Am I wrong about this?

Angry is good and focus that on better health is even better but you aren't to blame for this. She wanted this other guy and even went back to him when the chance came up.

You started your post out talking about how she was smart and could read body language really well. She's used it against you to make you feel like you were the problem not her.

This question is more for the folks that have gone through this. Is it worth noting in legal issues where the other spouse tried to manipulate the problems and manufacture guilty in the other spouse? That's what she is doing now. Don't let her blame you.

Awoken:

Also this morning I asked her when she is going to break it off with him and she said she was going to call him to set a time in person but he is still out of the country and needs to quarantine when he gets back.

She is adamant about breaking it off with him in person and refuses to do it over the phone.

Adrenalin and other hormones evaded my blood stream, my brain reacted, I instantly felt this intense rage in my whole body when I read about this. I don't want to tell anybody about the violent mind movies and fantasies that go hand in hand with this stress reaction.

What was your experience when she said that to you? What did you feel?

We are still living together even though I literally had a conversation with her this morning that we need time apart. However short of me moving into a hotel or her doing the same or renting a place, it’s not going to happen.

It’s also costly and our business has taken a 50% beating from Covid since March.

I can’t say we are tolerating each other as we are very civil and nice towards each other but I really need time to myself away from her. She is just starting ovulating so I can bet she will likely try something - I would be shocked if she didn’t.

I work from home so we are in each others face constantly unless she is out like she is today with friend # 3 below.

You know karma has a way of working things out. 5 of her good friends are going through things now, 2 of them infidelity related:

1) Early 50’s friend - her and her husband are retired and she was a virgin when she married her husband. Her husband just gave her a hall pass to screw others as he knows she never got to. What husband does that unless he’s been unfaithful?

2) Mid 30’s friend - her and her boyfriend were shopping for engagement rings, meanwhile he has been banging 2-3 20 somethings on the side for months.

3) Early 50’s recently divorced friend - she caught her husband cheating and is now recently divorced. Very nice lady and she spends the most time with her.

4) mid to late 40’s newly married - her friend is on her 2nd marriage and actually gave her advice to funnel cash away and start her own business apart from me untraceable - this was on one of the audios

5) late 40’s friend - she has 4 kids but is in a sexless marriage herself

Funny thing is all 5 love to get advice from my wife, yet my wife has the perspective of the cheater side of the equation. Of course she has told her friends that we have had issues in our marriage etc. She gets to hear it straight from the mouths of 2 of her good friends the damage cheating did to their relationships, and while listening, she gets to feel what it’s like to hear pain from yet another 2 people who are going through the same thing - she ultimately deserves this.

However, she left out one pertinent piece of info - that she has been unfaithful to me. Wonder if their opinion of her would change? I say it wouldn’t as women will stick together and 2 of the above have told her to use them as an alibi if she ever needs it - she actually came out and told me this a few weeks ago in one of our discussions - am surprised she didn’t keep this to herself.

One of the reasons that I think she wants to reconcile is that based on her friends issues she realized that everyone is going throught the same issues, just slightly different circumstances. So basically, the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know.

I think the ONE thing she is most threatened with is how Awoken I have become. I think she realized her future hangs in the balance, and if she breaks it off with him like she said she would, and then in turn I divorce her, she will be all alone.

Another thing I remember is that she pleaded with me for years to change and I didn’t. She said her biggest fear was that I would change but another women would get the benefit of those changes.

Baller20, with respect to her doing it in person, I’m not sure what to feel at this point because we have already discussed this a lot - it wasn’t the first time. I told her in situations like this, it’s not a good idea to do it in person, it has to be cut off right away. She said stop believing everything you read and she knows better.

[This message edited by Awoken at 3:49 PM, September 2nd (Wednesday)]