SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Brother, talk to your daughter and friend. You may not be feeling anything. But you are going through the most shit show life can throw up at you. Communicate x 3!

One day at a time.

Good Morning AH

I hope you find this well rested and slept like a baby. I suspect that is not the case and you had a horrible nights sleep.

Your wife writing a PG timeline was the correct way for her to handle it. She should have had a R rated timeline as well, you did the right thing to ask the questions to fill in the blanks.

This timeline was going to hurt, no way around it, without that pain and knowledge healing would be too hard, your mind would be everywhere filling in the unknown. I am sure she minimized several things as she was watching you die with each new revelation. I know most on SI think that's a bad thing, but it can be empathy.

Quite frankly, I expected worse, like multiple affairs and your mind can take you to even worse.

She called the 2 closest people to me that are not living with me, my daughter and my brother, and told them about the timeline and ask them to check on me. I just avoided both of them.

This is empathy, she is worried about you. She knows she killed part of you the other night. Call your daughter and friend let them know you are not going to hurt yourself (I hope that is true).

I am having a hard time seeing your WW as a horrible person, just a very flawed human like all of us. She allowed herself to become the pages of a harlequin romance, addicted to "women's porn" and she was one of the actors, this was a high for her. Her brain chemicals where firing like she was doing cocaine.

Not thinking of you is the hallmark of almost every affair. She has been jolted out of her affair and is thinking of you now, unlike most WS. She is R material and is showing some remorse and empathy very quickly. This is very unusual to go from all the blameshifting she started with to now. A big part of that change is because YOU did things right and had SI to help. Of course she is trying to save her ass, she knows she had the prize in her hand and tossed it to the ground. She is desperate to find a way to get the lottery ticket back.

Today, make plans with your friend, call your daughter, maybe do something with one of your sons. Try and get away from the devastation this storm has left behind. Get your work done and go fishing or something, if you can nap, do it. Try and not fall into depression, do whatever helps you find some joy today.

Respectfully,

Organic2003

yes when I asked if she would take a polygraph test.

Well, I am not going to offer any projections on what she was or wasn't thinking, but she just stepped in dog doo if she has lied to you about anything BUT ONLY IF YOU TAKE HER UP ON THE OFFER.

If she backpedaled on the above statement how you could reconcile with her is beyond me. What is very suspicious is that this affair went on for over 24 months between two people who because of their jobs were not tied to an office every day, and with you totally clueless about what was going on.

Your statement about how committed he was to pursuing her makes it hard to believe they only had sex once per month. not with the plans they were communicating.

AH, she has given you the opening to find out the truth especially about no other affairs of any kind in four years before OM popped into the picture. She has already answered the first question with a NO. Very simple to confirm.

Just know that an agreement to take a poly doesn't mean she has been honest.

Only a fool would say no to that question. If she were to say no, then its rather obvious she's still lying.

Many WS will say yes when asked to take a poly. Mostly because they're not stupid, and because they believe it won't come to that. That there BS is just asking to gage their response.

Always follow through with the test. Always. Even of you get to the office,and she drops the typical parking lot confession(some more truth,something really bad,that a ws will hope the BS will now believe they must have all the truth because its so bad, hoping they cancel the test). Always follow through.

AH, she has given you the opening to find out the truth especially about no other affairs of any kind in four years before OM popped into the picture. She has already answered the first question with a NO. Very simple to confirm.

Any affairs, ONS’s, or sexual dalliances of any kind such as making out with men in parking lots on GNOs.

You don’t have to figure out the phrasing of questions - just the questions you want to ask. The polygraph examiner will do the rest. For best accuracy, no more than 3 questions is recommended — but your wife doesn’t need to know that or which questions will be asked. She can stew on that during the drive over.

The reason people like Beyond Rage and myself believe in polygraphs isn’t because we think they are a cure all. It’s because they force the truth out under pressure. As my tag line says, it’s under the greatest pressure that a person’s essence is revealed.

As to the great debate over how many sexual encounters, really who cares? 39 times of another man entering her is violation enough. That said, it matters because it’s more than likely a minimization — that is to say, a lie.

Why so? Because of the difference between POSSIBILITY and PROBABILITY. People sometimes get them confused. Use this as a logic tool.

Is 39 times possible? Of course. Is it probable? No. Your WW worked in a job in which she set her own hours and drove around all day. During the time when the affair was happening your WW was a prostitute/mistress for the OM. He even transferred most of his real estate business to her. He owned plenty of empty properties where sex could happen when he wanted it. And the drive between your part of Maryland (semi rural) and West Virginia is a stone’s throw.

You also have another logic tool at your disposal called Occam’s razor: the simplest explanation usually fits. Occam’s razor — given what we know about the texts, the photos, the opportunity, the flexibility of their day schedules, the highly sexual nature of their relationship, the OM’s proclivities, etc — suggests that they were screwing like rabbits.

Put Occam’s razor together with probability and you can see why most here are skeptical about your wife’s claims. We also know WW’s habitually minimize the sexual activity in affairs several steps back. They often say they do this to protect their BH’s. But they are actually protecting themselves, or rather their self image.

It is dawning on your WW that she is little better than a paid prostitute — and it is dawning on her that you see this too. You’re in shock as these facts come pouring in. Soon you will feel righteous anger, which you should. Help that drive your lack of patience with her. I’m not suggesting going around in a rage and projecting your impatience. But I’m suggesting that patience with her will get you absolutely nowhere.

Your pastor and others, as well meaning as they are, are buying into what I think of as the lost waif/fainting couch pattern of thinking about cheating wives. That they are just poor deluded souls, innocent naifs who were preyed upon. But this disrespects women and is counter to everything we’ve been told for more than half a century. Women want and should be treated as equals.

If they are equals, then we can simply say as an equal that your wife saw an opportunity to be a kept mistress, she thought it would lead to a branch swinging hypergamous transition, she saw trading sex for this as a means to an end but she enjoyed the sex, and she planned to leave you. She very much planned to hurt you and humiliate you. Don’t forget that. The woman you’re seeing now is someone who just watched plan A evaporate and now needs to lock down plan B. That’s her mission and everything she says and does should be filtered thru that. A woman who planned to dump you and humiliate you and joked about humiliating you ... that’s not a woman who merits your trust or patience.

As far all the mealy mouthed credit being given your WW, I’m unimpressed. The bar is set far too low here. So she’s done “more” than what other lying cheating assholes have done. Big deal! “She’s made such excellent progress!” they say. “You’ll be missing out on such a great wife!” they say.

Do you really think that?

What she’s done is mostly, if not all, about control and self preservation. And she’s only done it because you’ve had advice here and you’ve acted on it. Otherwise she’d be acting like every single other remorseless adulterer. What some people here seem to define as “getting it” or “remorse” is doing the bare minimum to meet your requests.

That isn’t remorse.

Remorse is recompense. Remorse is leaving you alone so you can have a moment’s peace. Remorse is giving you divorce instead of trying to manipulate you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:35 AM, September 10th (Thursday)]

Can we all go easy on the”only” 39 times stuff? It’s got to be hurtful to AH.

The reality is that she was living in a polyamory lifestyle. All the little things over the two years is equally hard to get over. So whether she is minimizing the number of times is not the issue. The issue is that she loved it all. Now she is trying to say that she felt guilty from time to time, that the sex wasn’t that good, that she “tried” to end it - every cliche in the manual.

The full extent of the damage she has caused has not yet dawned on her, so she keeps to the “I don’t want to hurt you”

line. What her husband needs has not dawned on her. All the begging and crying and promising in the world cant work if she can’t admit to herself the basic truth that she wanted it, and thought she could get away with it, and she loved every minute.

She doesn’t get it yet. She just plain does not get it.

The issue is that she loved it all. Now she is trying to say that she felt guilty from time to time, that the sex wasn’t that good, that she “tried” to end it - every cliche in the manual.

The full extent of the damage she has caused has not yet dawned on her, so she keeps to the “I don’t want to hurt you”

line. What her husband needs has not dawned on her. All the begging and crying and promising in the world cant work if she can’t admit to herself the basic truth that she wanted it, and thought she could get away with it, and she loved every minute.

She doesn’t get it yet. She just plain does not get it.

Exactly. Agreed. My point above. 39 times or 100 — the only difference is that she’s still lying. And lying a lot.

As far all the mealy mouthed credit being given your WW, I’m unimpressed. The bar is set far too low here. So she’s done “more” than what other lying cheating assholes have done. Big deal! “She’s made such excellent progress!” they say. “You’ll be missing out on such a great wife!” they say.

Do you really think that?

What she’s done is mostly, if not all, about control and self preservation. And she’s only done it because you’ve had advice here and you’ve acted on it. Otherwise she’d be acting like every single other remorseless adulterer. What some people here seem to define as “getting it” or “remorse” is doing the bare minimum to meet your requests.

That isn’t remorse.

Remorse is recompense. Remorse is leaving you alone so you can have a moment’s peace. Remorse is giving you divorce instead of trying to manipulate you.

I agree with you Thumos. I don't know what other people are seeing, but what I see in AHguy's wife is somebody who found herself in hot water and is simply doing the next thing that she can think of to get herself "out of trouble".

And it appears to me that she is always doing whatever she believes will cost her the least:

- Okay, I'll say it was bad, but it was mostly AHguy's fault

- Okay, I'll say it was actually my fault but he should have noticed and not neglected me

- Okay, I'll say it is entirely my fault and you were a great husband but I won't tell you much

- Okay, I'll let other people know but give them a sanitized version of the events and put the pressure on you to be "forgiving"

- Okay, I guess you're serious, I'll restrict my behavior a tad and maybe look for a new job but I won't divorce!

- Okay, I'll agree to a separation and I'll try to find a new job, but you must agree to my conditions!

- Okay, I'll agree to your conditions, but I will negotiate them down and then violate them by not respecting the boundaries I agreed to

- Okay, I'll give you a timeline, but it will be full of shit, lies, omissions, and minimization (Although still horrible)

- Okay, etc.

She's just desperate!

She is not remorseful, not truly internally contrite and ready to face her demons - and ESPECIALLY ready to face the fact that her demons have brought her to a place where she cannot undo the damage she has caused, and that she quite likely ended the life that she had with AHguy.

Because in the end, it is now about what AHguy wants. he could not control her to prevent her from betraying him.

And now, she can't control this outcome no matter how much she may try, because it is AHguy's to choose.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 10:17 AM, September 10th (Thursday)]

And for those feeding you this line about her affair being "average" or "run of the mill" or whatever, AHGuy, I think this is a sad commentary on people possibly becoming jaded and inured to the horror of infidelity.

Adultery is nuclear-level emotional and physical abuse. In terms of the way it violates the faithful partner, it is akin to rape. (As an aside this is why Esther Perel's flowery platitudes are so vile and execrable).

Adultery is on the same list as murder in most human cultures on the planet dating back thousands (and probably tens of thousands) of years. That's for good reasons. C.S. Lewis called this common set of human proscriptions against transgression an intuitive understanding of the Moral Law, or as he called it "The Tao."

Human cultures have always understood the transgression of adultery as among the most toxic events that can occur in any society. Damaging at every level, beginning with the relationship between husband and wife, extending to children, and then on outward to the rest of society. Adultery is a universal acid that melts monogamous bonds, wrecks families and does great harm to the entire human enterprise in ways that last for generations to come.

Imagine saying "well, this is a pretty run of the mill, average murder"

In fact, cops do find themselves saying this after years on the job when empathy fatigue sets in. Not a good sign, by the way.

On top of that, it wasn't "average" or run of the mill. It's pretty commonly accepted that most affairs run their course in about 3-6 months.

Two years is a long-term affair. Compound that with extra toxic elements, such as in your case, and it's not typical at all. But even if it were "average" so what?

"Average" just so happens to me one of the most traumatic events a human being can endure, and one of the worst things one human can do to another human being.

To "reconcile" that requires an actual accounting. "Reconcile" in part means to make things add up, to make them consistent. It requires truth for this accounting, an audit of the books, if you will. And it requires real and authentic remorse and recompense.

Absent these elements, divorce is the best option.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:46 AM, September 10th (Thursday)]

I really think this metaphor is the most accurate I have ever seen.

"So your wife took her life car, and drove fast, had fun. And then smashed it into a tree. Now....you are supposed to believe...that with lots and lots of structural, interior, and body work...this will now be the best car you, or any other man, could ever hope to have. The best of the best.

Nope.

No matter how good the repair, it cannot compare to a new, never smashed model. Why buy a refurb, when new models are available? Models that stay on the road?"

This is exactly what the question is.

The tree is the POSOM. There are other correlations in this metaphor. You are the innocent bystander that was hit when she ricocheted and have been almost totalled too. Even if she gets repaired she will be what she is used and damaged by some one else . Also what is on the line is the price, The Rest Of Your Life! Even if she never cheats again she is damaged and she has damaged you too. Can you except that the paint will never match (she is your one and only but you are not hers). Even if you D and get a new model or even a uses/newer undamaged model you are getting a better deal. That is what has gone through my mind for 31 years.(The miss match of paint only becomes more noticeable with sun fade)(as my years are less and less) Maybe I didn't know how to say it this way till now but that in my view is the question. Do you want to spend ALL of you (as your WW said) the rest of your life on her? It is also disturbing that the pastor is trying to manipulate you. He should have been honest with you that yes you are getting a refurb for the price of the rest of your life, but God would be in on it if you choose to bye in. Not some vague, you might get another car that WILL Crash. Like I said before with God I have been happy but still as my odometer keep clicking off another year I still wonder,what might have been. Stay strong. You can make it. I'm /we are for you.

Hi Friend,

Yeah, that’s a huge shock. There’s something different that happens when you finally realize what happened and this timeline likely gets you there. It happened.

You’re going to go through the most difficult phase of this which is recognition. The stages of grief are a real thing and for the next few months (or longer) you are going to cycle through them. It sucks, but there’s no way to get through it other than to feel it and move through them.

The grief you have is for the death of your life as you understood it. It’s such an acute pain that I don’t know how to describe it. It’s as if everything is fine by the sight, but everything is wrong by the feeling. You’ll cycle wanting to repair it and wanting to run away from it. My best personal advice is to get some distance and focus on what you want your life to look like after the storm has passed.

You might have a candidate to reconcile with, but you really have to import this new information into your ideal relationship.

I’ve been where you are, but with some differences. My WW had two affairs, starting in year four of our marriage. Both were LTAs. She stopped the first one to get pregnant and started the second six months after birth. This spanned 8-9 years. I made all the mistakes people here are trying to have you not make. What led me to divorce was that, for the majority of our marriage, my WW did not love me. It was math. What forced me to file was continued contact with the last OM and the later rescinding of her agreement to take a polygraph test. It forced my hand. She called my ultimatum. I either ended it, or I broke something in my soul and knuckled under. Her pride was more important than the polygraph test. Continued contact with the OM was more important than our family. It was proof positive that she did not love me, and had not loved me for the vast majority of our marriage.

And I tried to reconcile. I held her as she cried about her OM being lost. You want soul crushing… and I still tried. I don’t have any regrets trying. It made me see that she just didn’t love me and that was that. I wasn’t going to stay in something false.

Your WW may be different. As BeyondRage noted, you need the polygraph, if only for your own sense of wellbeing. The real use behind a polygraph is to force a full confession and be confident it is the full confession. If she agrees to it, then you can have a pretty good idea that she is telling the truth and the truth is what you need to make a decision. But you have to go all the way to actually taking the test. Do people fail them falsely? Yes. Are the reliable? Somewhat. Even if she fails, can you do another one? Absolutely. Do you have to leave if she fails? No, just do it again, likely with a better examiner. You just need to do it to get to a point where you have the real truth, and you know it’s the real truth. For instance, this is an LTA you might be able to get over, but what if you find out in a year or so that she also had a one night stand a few years after you were married? At that point, you’d probably run and consider an attempt to R a waste of time. That’s why the truth – the rock solid truth – is so important. If you’re going to entertain her ideas, then you need the truth now. R is a difficult. It takes something out of you that’s profound. If you are going to give this a shot then you need the truth with a capital “T”. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you need it as this process goes on. A one night stand, a flirtation, an emotion affair she hid, flirtations… you should have this all. Complete unflinching honesty is required before you can really begin the contemplation to put this back together.

That said, I agree with Ms. Tea. Your wife looks to have had a midlife crisis. The first tattoo at 40ish? She mid as well have purchased a corvette. It’s so cliché that it’s laughable. Why do we look at mid-life crises? We are looking at the fear of death and the thought of the roads we could have taken. This is probably where your WW was. The OM knew what offers to put out there, and your WW took it. He didn’t press her buttons… he was fishing. And it looks like his lure snagged more than your WW.

Part of what might make you mad is the aspect of an affair that makes you feel impotent. In the old days, you would probably have gone out and taken revenge on the OM. The legal system, oddly, used to treat these situations with enormous understanding. Now… not so much. You’d end up in jail. In days of yore, hundreds of years ago, you might challenge him to a duel, or take revenge in blood. These days, not so much. Again, you’d end up in jail and that is not an option for obvious reasons. The law evolved to allow some form of revenge monetarily (i.e. alienation of affection lawsuits, criminalizing adultery, etc.) but those methods are both time consuming and likely have little reward at the end of the day. And, you might not reside in a state with those laws anyway, even while they are rarely utilized. Today, there is simply no outlet for this legally and engaging in it will almost certainly lead to your own destruction… and that means you lose the game. You ruin YOUR life and it’ll have no impact on them.

The OM’s wife has the ability to hurt him in a divorce, but that is not your concern. You can help her, but that is not helpful to you. What the OM was doing was a power play, engaging in the ancient idea of mate stealing. He’s now getting divorced and losing half his stuff. That’s pretty decent. Help the OM’s wife as much as you can, but don’t overstep.

I’m a lawyer. I suffered through this aspect too. I was not going to break the law in any way, shape or form. I was not about to do a single thing that would impact my children’s life. So, I couldn’t engage in that. And that truly, horribly sucks. Controlling that instinct is so necessary to not come out of this hurt even more.

And your WW… you want some idea of Karma to hit her. But don’t engage in that either. There’s nothing to be gained through that.

Long ago, my own WW told me about some guys that were trying to flirt with her and she was shutting them down, but wanted to know how I felt for some reason. I didn’t get mad. I told her that I could help out legally and would support her decision in how she chose to play it, but that it was her choice as to how to play it. And that’s the world now. You go out and get in some middle aged bar fight, you’re a violent person and people hate you. You don’t and you’re weak. There’s no winning that game trying to force another person to stay with you – it’s their choice. Love is a choice. It’s a choice you make every day.

For the majority of your marriage you had a decent one. You were happy to the point you would never stray or leave. Your WW made a different choice and got sucked into a fantasy.

The more concerning thing regarding her timeline is that she seriously considered leaving you for this other guy’s fantasy. The question she should answer, for herself, is if the situation happened again, either with the OM or someone different, would she be there trying to be with you? And why? Because in this situation, at that time where she started her affair, she was not in love with you and not making the choice to be in love with you. Now, she wants to be. She has to get to the bottom of that question – what is love for her? Is it the resources and comfort you provide? Is it the family unit? Is it public perception? Is it group pressure to fit in? In other words, why does she want to be with YOU? She had the affair, and stayed with you for that time for logistics. Without the kids, or the job, or something practical holding her there, I think we can all agree that she would be gone. What really kept her in the marriage during the affair? Because that ‘thing’ that kept her there while she was having the affair cannot be the reason that she is staying. She has to find some other reason why SHE wants to be with YOU… not just with the house, the kids, the outward appearance, the acceptance… she has to find some reason she wants to be with YOU. The rest of the stuff is just logistics. There’s no reason to have a marriage with someone that wants to stay in a house, or with the kids, or with the life you have… the question is why she would want to stay WITH YOU, if everything else vanished. That, to my mind, is the question she has to answer, honestly and in herself, to give R a very real attempt. And the answer can’t be “because I love you.” That’s not enough.

Again, I am sorry you’re here and I hope you’re recovering from yesterday.

Remember, avoid her. Avoid alcohol. Have a good cry. And enjoy a sunny day.

You will get through this. That’s for sure. How YOU want it to look when you emerge… that’s the only question you have to answer.

While Waggingthedog is right the question you NEED to know from your WW is. Why does she really want to R? Even if she has it right and the answer is strong enough for you don't be taken in and base R on what she wants. IMHO The more important question is to your self, Do you want to spend "All Of You " on her?

“The cost is the rest of your life.”

That really gets at it doesn’t it?

Think about it.

Yeah I wish you guys would knock off the "she had sex with at least such and such a number...". He knows she's minimizing. If AHG has shown us anything, is that he was not born yesterday. Heck I'm well aware I am married to one of the most prolific sluts in Michigan, but I don't need people reminding me of it day in and day out.

AH, I am one who considers that every affair is much the same, regardless of how long, how often, how emotionally involved.

BS that have been through this website have chosen their path forward for a variety of reasons, after having had to endure a variety of abuses.

It still comes down to what the BS wants to do. What indicators are there to help him make his choice.

Trauma is trauma. How someone reacts to it differs. How much they can handle to achieve their proposed outcome also differs.

But AH, 'you' get to make 'your' choice. One that 'you' will be most happiest with.

[This message edited by paboy at 1:19 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]

I dont think HAWW had a MLC and turned into a horny teenager. IMO she just took out AH from her Heart, mind, and Life out side her family. I dont hibk she has others affairs, not even a drunken ONS. She was just acting free!!!!

Then OM came, and she as a "single" woman was receptive to OM avances, thats way she didnt put OM on his place after the first try, thats why she spent time with him enjoying OM attention, until she started her love story.

She was not a promoter at the behinig, but as accepting his attention, knowing his intentions, as a single woman.

I dont think she intentionally humilated AH, she just let everybody know about her new boyfriend at work, spend time with him and her frineds, as a single woman.

After DDay, she just wanted to save face, for her selfish needs, didnt give afuck about HA.

The only thign she has done on her own, was quit her job, but that was just to save face, avoid gossip and hide other A facts. It wasnt done to protect AH as he wasnt /isnt in her radar! Thats why she has to ask about xontacting D, and after the Talk with HA she undertood that job enviroment was hurting HA, but not before.

IMO she is not conecting with HA, she is still mourning her relation with OM, and has no place for HA.it is not becasue she is eveil, is just becasue HA hasta been in her priorities for a very long time

[This message edited by Mrhealed at 1:52 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]

I dont think she intentionally humilated AH, she just let everybody know about her new boyfriend at work, spend time with him and her frineds

That right there is part that I dwell on every time I read an update on this situation. Even assuming there was only one AP, the amount of disrespect shown is staggering. In my opinion, I don't think I could come back from this.

I dont think she intentionally humilated AH, she just let everybody know about her new boyfriend at work, spend time with him and her frineds, as a single woman.

That's pretty much intentionally humiliating someone.

,

That's pretty much intentionally humiliating someone

Yes, you a re rigth, but what I Mena is that in her mind was like HA was a Guy that has a Crush on her , but is just an acquaintance. So this was not a stoper for her to get into a romatic relation with OM

And let everybody know about It, not hide it. I think she didnt even thougth about It. OM did all the hiding and power play to pee on the corners

[This message edited by Mrhealed at 2:30 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]