SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Do not just sit there and listen to a pep talk.

IMO, you should use the meeting with the Pastor as an opportunity to obtain information that may help you decide to R or D.

Inform him that (among other things) you are struggling with trusting her again - and that while her 'confessing/finding Jesus' may make her feel better about her sin - it does very little/nothing to restore your trust in her as a wife.

For example, ask for his assessment as to:

1 - why she decided to have sex with OM.

2 - why she was able to lie 24/7 for two years.

3 - how (not why) you can trust her again without making yourself 100% vulnerable to further infidelity?

4 - why it's fair to you to be tortured for the rest of your life with the triggers/reminders/mind movies (e.g., the boat...the list is endless)

5 - ask him what is the treatment plan (other than 'finding' God) for your wife to fix herself and become a safe long term life partner?

He shouldn't be blindsided by your questions and hopefully his reply is not be limited to her 'loosing herself to the Devil'.

By this time, he should reply with an outline of a very detailed list of steps (in addition to reading the Bible and attending Church).

Finally, after the meeting with the Pastor, you should provide your wife with honest feedback as to whether her counseling sessions are providing results that are meaningful to you (restoring trust etc). If not, then she needs to find another IC.

I hate to plant further seeds of doubt, but I think given your wife's proclivities and that she's been immersing herself in something of a new "lifestyle" for half a decade -- with a symbolic tattoo and a group of friends who either tacitly or overtly approved of her behavior -- the chances that her unfaithfulness was limited to just Mr. Millionaire OM are extremely low.

There is a high likelihood she has been unfaithful more than once, either through ONS's or heavy petting with other men after nights carousing in bars. Her friends group approved based on the lies she told about you to them.

This was a midlife grown woman appropriating for herself the right to "more" materially and sexually and perfectly willing to step outside her marriage to garner it. To be clear, she didn't passively take the steering wheel away from Jesus for 5-6 years. It's more like she yanked the steering wheel aggressively away and booted Him from the car and careened onward toward what she felt was her rightful destiny.

This is why it's difficult to stomach and believe that her recent behaviors are anything other than CYA regret. Not remorse.

By the time the affair with the OM began, she seemed adept at hiding her behavior and activities. The only reason it was exposed was because of a PI with far more skills than you.

Also, you might tell D's husband that by going along for the ride with his wife and allowing your WW's affair to go on, he has probably already been cuckolded himself. I am doubtful that D, as low a character person as she is, has been faithful to her husband (or he to her).

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:46 AM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

I asked her who they were other than D? 2 ladies from her work and her former Gyn trainer, that was news to me . I asked who the guy was and how he knew, she replied “ I don’t want to hurt you any more, it is embarrassing “ I was like “ were you having an affair with your trainer too?” She said: “ Noooo, that’s not what I meant “ then admitted that the POSOM payed for her personal trainer to come to her Gym just for her.

WHEN was she going to mention this??

Funny how she made the unilateral decision to not inform you of critical information, isn't it?

Be prepared, it won't stop there.

Also, you might tell D's husband that by going along for the ride with his wife and allowing your WW's affair to go on, he has probably already been cuckolded himself. I am doubtful that D, as low a character person as she is, has been faithful to her husband (or he to her)

This part from AH troubles me a little in as much as did D's husband get something out of this as very few married guys would want to hang with his wife and a smooth operator which POS seems to have been

I'm sure you understand what I'm saying

I think you need the timeline and a polygraph before deciding on R or D for sure. You have to know what the worst is to know if you can forgive it. You don’t want to R and learn more 10 years down the line.

In rehard of D, I believe HA needs to ask her WW , what could be the reason that D and her Husband were not just indiferent to her cehating, but also willing enablers if her Affair!!

I think the answer is quite obvios. HA was painted as a Monster!! And HAWW told them taht she was trapped in a living hell till her youngets leaves home.

It explains why D Husband never though about getting cheated on, as he was not dicho mister. It also explain why they were really involved un WWAH future Happy Life.

It also may explain why D got angry with AHWw. Becasue AHWw palyed her, and conffes; or took the easy way and told her that she is acoward and can leave AH.

I bet the "tragic" AHWw story was/is well known in her previous job. Thats why she was so addamant about leaving not just the workplace, but the while sector she worked so hard to get where she was.

i may be wrong, but for sure there si mich more she needs to explain.

And if she is a good God person, she should also apology to OBS and her sons, as well to put the récord straigh with the ones she humilated AH.

With respect to D and her husband, here's three more questions to consider asking.

1 - Why would D and her husband double date two adulterers?

2 - Was it because they were lead to believe that

you were both divorcing (when the time is right for the kids) and then planned to get married?

3 - And if the plan was to get married, did the AP give you any jewelry that signifies that you belonged to him or symbolized your love?

The reason why I felti bad is during the first encounter I was too aggressive,

You know what is ironic? She probably enjoyed the hell out of it. I would surmise that you rarely ever got rough with her in the bedroom, and she probably likes being dominated. Most women do, although most never admit it to their husbands for fear of losing respect and, by fiat, their sexual power over their husbands.

Don't kick yourself too hard for banging her. Remember, that is all it was: sex. You weren't making love to her or trying to bond with her. Some of it was repossessing what was, in your mind, your real estate; and then there was also probably some punishment aspect to it too.

Not sure but I seem to recall you saying you did some work for D and her husband at cost/mates rates.

If that was the case it takes them to whole new level of shallow.

Anything short of at least 30 pages of handwritten material is going to be a lackluster effort on her part for a 2 year affair and 4 years before that of carousing.

My WW's was 17 pages for a 3 month affair and there was still significant detail I felt she omitted, and she failed the polygraph.

The timeline will not cut it.

You need a polygraph to force the truth so you know what you're really dealing with.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:07 PM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

I don’t want to hurt you any more, it is embarrassing.

Ramius' analysis of this statement is on the money. I received the same several times, right before more trickle-truth. It has nothing to do with "hurting you any more". Classic self-preservation.

AH, the good news is that your antenna are up now, and the more she talks the more info leaks. We all want the whole truth - not sure anyone ever gets it. That is a real sticking point for me, and why I plan to D. Continued lying = no respect, and where there is not respect, there cannot be love.

AHGuy,

Welcome to Limboland

Not in Reconciliation, but not divorced.

I. Theory, you could leave it just like this until one of you just can’t take it anymore, cheats again, or dies.

I have a lot to talk about but how can I start? I got a timeline of her affair and met with the pastor. Her written timeline wasn’t as detailed as it should have been, but we sat down and talked about it. It was draining I wanted to just disappear, the good part is that she seems determent to be honest she wasn’t holding back but maybe she was too honest, what came out of her whether it was all of it or not made me now wish I had just filed for divorce 2 months ago and left for good. the amount of deception and neglect during that time is beyond what I can handle at this moment. I need time to absorb it. I had to stop her from continuing. I know the advice here is to get all I can get her to admit but not today.

Meeting the pastor on the other hand,wasn’t as bad as I expected to be, to my surprise, he kept religion talks out of it and tried to be more analytic. If I understood him well, he thinks that we have the potential to reconcile and be happy if we do it right. he first made me say what was on my mind in front of her. I let it all out including the heater incident and her planning to dump me in few years. He asked her to excuse herself and leave us alone. He then proceed to tell me that my WW is still not where she needs to be to help me heal but she has been making solid steps forward and if I’m willing to be patient with her he promised she will exceed the expectation, he even said that she was ahead of the curve comparing to other cheating spouses that he dealt with and he has dealt with many. He gave me statistics of cheating in our society which is scary, he said he understands why I can’t trust that she wouldn’t cheat again and I have the right to leave her and move on but he said that will apply to any woman I would consider in the future. he said how can I be sure that they won’t cheat on me. He said the probability of my WW cheating again is close to 0% He said he knows my WW very well and knows her flaws and if she follows with the right therapy she will be a woman any man would love to have as a partner, not just a loyal partner but also the most loving and that will be a shame if I miss on that opportunity. But he said all that depends on me if I want to save my marriage and if I chose to forgive and work toward healing and regaining the trust. He said that it won't be easy, and wouldn't suggest it to every case, but neither is divorcing and leaving her. He said I’m at the hardest part of it because of obstacles that comes with anger and trauma from my side and shame and confusion from hers. He suggested we both go to individual counseling and MC. He said if we trust him with the later he has a plan that will consist of a dynamic that would take in consideration that we are still in IC. Before moving to an intensive MC program. He doesn’t do IC but he said he can recommend a few that are familiar with the process.

I wanted to give you an update before I go to take care of some business, when I come back I will try to give you a summery of her timeline. I'm afraid if I start typing it now I would be late for an appointment I have with a costumer.

I am surprised to feel so but the pastor seems like a wise man. He makes some good points.

But you would have to eat a very big **** sandwich to follow his advice. Maybe it would be worth it for you, I could never do it.

The way it looks, his position pre-supposes two things: one that he KNOWS your wife has "learned her lesson" and would never cheat again. And that there is a good likelihood that any future wife you might have would also cheat.

Well, he simply cannot know either of these things, nor can he know if you ever really want or need to marry again.

I feel sorry for anyone who finds out about an unfaithful spouse, especially a situation that last a long period of time. There just simply no excuse, as a long term cheater had plenty of time to decide they were doing wrong and get out.

I feel doubly sorry when the cheater won't just let go, they are just making the whole thing worse by trying to force you to make a compromise no person should ever be asked to make.

Just a point, AH. You can forgive and not reconcile. I've forgiven my XWW. A great deal of my anger left when I did. It wasn't an instantaneous effect but happened over a period of time. Forgive doesn't mean forget, either. You will never forget.

The pastor said the probability of your WW cheating again is close to 0%. I don't think he can say that. I'll bet 10 years ago he would have said the same thing. I think the latest large survey had the proportion of women who committed adultery has slowly increased to about 20%. Opportunity, desire, willingness, think won't get caught, go for it. Your WW is in the 20%. Mine is in the 20%.

What we do know is that they cheated on us. The rest of the population isn't even close to a coin toss. I'm just saying this as a counter argument.

Did the timeline your WW prepared provide anything on the 4 years leading up to the 2 years of adultery with POS? Some people want to know more, some less. I needed to know everything. I'm a detail person. What I didn't know was driving me crazy.

It was hard and very painful for you. You don't have to take it all in one sitting. You will probably have to revisit many of the same things time and time again. I did anyway. How will your WW react to that?

The pastor may be right. Your WW could be the epitome of R material. Are you? That's the really important question. I told my WW to prove to me, show me that the best decision I could make was to R with her, stay with her. She couldn't. What is the best decision for you? You might not know yet. After the discussion of her timeline and not yet getting all of it you might be closer to knowing.

I need time to absorb it. I had to stop her from continuing. I know the advice here is to get all I can get her to admit but not today.

Actually, a pretty common advice here would be to absorb what you can, then stop. Take as many sessions as you need. You don’t need to do this in one go.

I know the advice here is to get all I can get her to admit...

Bear in mind that this is not "expert" advice, and IMHO, it's not even good advice. Whether you R or D, every new detail creates a new trigger. Once you're satisfied that you have enough of the story to be confident in whatever choice you make... spare yourself the rest. Yes, our WS's say and do horrible things while they're cheating, but believe me when I say.. you can safely assume it was ALL horrible and not put yourself through any more. Big ticket items like "was this the only affair?" are important questions. There are some things we need to know in order to make a stay or go decision and we do need to test for honesty. But some of the advice you've had here to get every detail is going to cause you a great deal of unnecessary torment.

I think, for most of us, the craving to know it all can be overwhelming. I remember searching through my house like a crazed thing, looking for any scrap of new evidence. I spent hours equal to days, hell, maybe even weeks, scouring through his emails, phone bills, bank statements, anything I could get my hands on to get more evidence. And I got way more than I bargained for too. Even though I held my questioning of him to the limit of "how is this answer going to help me?", I had already done the damage by then. I felt like a ghost, haunting my old life at that point, cored out and hollow. This is trauma. No, it's trauma on top of trauma. There's what my WH did to me via his adultery and then what I did to me in my frenetic search for some kind of answer. But there's no answer which is satisfactory enough, and all you end up doing is salting your own wounds and hoping you can regain some semblance of control in your EMDR sessions. THINK about what you need. Your curiosity will be rampant and morbid, but don't let it run away with you.

He gave me statistics of cheating in our society which is scary, he said he understands why I can’t trust that she wouldn’t cheat again and I have the right to leave her and move on but he said that will apply to any woman I would consider in the future. he said how can I be sure that they won’t cheat on me. He said the probability of my WW cheating again is close to 0% He said he knows my WW very well and knows her flaws and if she follows with the right therapy she will be a woman any man would love to have as a partner, not just a loyal partner but also the most loving and that will be a shame if I miss on that opportunity.

Let me preface this by saying that it's not a bad plan if you are interested in R. That said, these parts in the quote above are amounting to some persuasion on his part, and even though I'm sure his heart is in the right place, I don't think you deserve to be manipulated. Yes, divorce can be scary and no, you don't have any guarantees on whoever you might date afterwards, but the choice is 100% yours to make. For every road you choose, there's a path not taken, and only YOU can decide if giving your WW another chance is worth what you might miss on the other path. I'm not divorced myself, but I'll tell you... I sometimes wonder where I'd be if I'd bailed fifteen years ago, the first time I had to go see a lawyer because of my WH's antics. Both paths are capable of haunting you. R or D, the choice is yours and yours alone. Take your time and make it all about YOU.

It was draining I wanted to just disappear, the good part is that she seems determent to be honest she wasn’t holding back but maybe she was too honest, what came out of her whether it was all of it or not made me now wish I had just filed for divorce 2 months ago and left for good. the amount of deception and neglect during that time is beyond what I can handle at this moment.

That is your inner wise voice talking. Filing for divorce doesn't stop you from doing anything, seeing the Pastor, or getting counseling for one or both of you together etc. But it does put you in the driver's seat of whether you want to reconcile or just move on.

I need time to absorb it. I had to stop her from continuing. I know the advice here is to get all I can get her to admit but not today.

Not really, the general advice is to learn everything you can as you can handle it.

Meeting the pastor on the other hand,wasn’t as bad as I expected to be, to my surprise, he kept religion talks out of it and tried to be more analytic. If I understood him well, he thinks that we have the potential to reconcile and be happy if we do it right.

And so it begins.

This is the start of a Pastor's sales pitch, because his goal is to keep you together more so than for AHguy to be happy.

His main concern SHOULD BE YOU and your ability to be happy and maintain your sanity around someone who betrayed you so badly after you have been a faithful mate to her for your whole adult life.

he first made me say what was on my mind in front of her. I let it all out including the heater incident and her planning to dump me in few years.

Good.

He asked her to excuse herself and leave us alone.

Interesting and concerning. How do you know what the plan was beforehand and what your wife's involvement or understanding of what he was going to say to you?

He then proceed to tell me that my WW is still not where she needs to be to help me heal but she has been making solid steps forward and if I’m willing to be patient with her he promised she will exceed the expectation,

Now he is just full of it. This is unfiltered telling you to eat a shit sandwich until it tastes good. How can he promise anything?

he even said that she was ahead of the curve comparing to other cheating spouses that he dealt with and he has dealt with many.

That's great. I am not sure how that changes how you feel about what she did, for years.

He gave me statistics of cheating in our society which is scary, he said he understands why I can’t trust that she wouldn’t cheat again and I have the right to leave her and move on but he said that will apply to any woman I would consider in the future. he said how can I be sure that they won’t cheat on me. He said the probability of my WW cheating again is close to 0%

Now this is unmitigated, horrible bullshit.

He has no fucking idea whether or not of the chances she will cheat on you in future.

Basically he is saying, well your wife is a cheater, but the next one could very well be, so better to stick with the devil you know, or something like that.

And so what? Whether she might cheat again isn't the point. The point is she already did it, and can or why should you accept a life with this woman going forward?

I'll throw my hat in the ring with an actual true statement. ANY WOMAN you meet and develop a relationship with who is not your wife has a 100% chance that she did not fuck another man behind your back while lying straight to your face and humiliating you, for years.

And to go further into odds making: There is a very slim chance you will find anyone who will be as disloyal, cruel, and hurtful, even if they are a cheater.

He said he knows my WW very well and knows her flaws and if she follows with the right therapy she will be a woman any man would love to have as a partner, not just a loyal partner but also the most loving and that will be a shame if I miss on that opportunity.

Ugh. More ridiculous bullshit.

If he actually knows your cheating wife well, then why didn't he warn you about her cheating beforehand?

And how presumptuous to tell you that you that "any man" including you, who she lied and cheated on would love to have her as a partner!

What about the sleazeball she cheated with? Would he love to have her as a partner? How about D's husband?

Would the pastor marry her? Bet you he wouldn't!

What about any man who she told this story to before starting a relationship? Most would run for the hills, maybe some would wait for a while to get what they want first.

But he said all that depends on me if I want to save my marriage and if I chose to forgive and work toward healing and regaining the trust.

Annnnd there it is. The pressure is on you to save the marriage she destroyed.

You need to "learn to trust her". Isn't that what you already did?

I think you should do what you need to save yourself. If that includes staying married to your cheating wife, that is your choice.

He said that it won't be easy, and wouldn't suggest it to every case, but neither is divorcing and leaving her.

If you talk to him again, please find out what it would take for him to suggest that a couple divorce.

Wasn't this the guy who was there for the ambush of other church cheaters?

He said I’m at the hardest part of it because of obstacles that comes with anger and trauma from my side and shame and confusion from hers.

He's wrong again.

If you want to stay together or divorce is not a "both of you" thing. It's a you thing.

It's not just your anger and trauma and especially not her dealing with "shame and confusion".

What is she confused about anyway? You're the one who should be confused!

What your wife really needs to deal with is actually her LACK OF SHAME and why she thought it was okay to do such horrible things. She SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASHAMED A LONG TIME AGO!

Shame is like pain, it tells you when you do something wrong. She had no shame FOR YEARS, now all of a sudden she has it, conveniently, once she gets busted.

He suggested we both go to individual counseling and MC.

Great, another couple of counselors, at least one who will act like this is a "both of you problem" that you both "need to work through", who will assign blame to both parties and "the marriage" while only one was a cheater.

He said if we trust him with the later he has a plan that will consist of a dynamic that would take in consideration that we are still in IC.

He is acting like this has something to do with him when it has nothing to do with him!

You don't need to trust him. Your trust of him is immaterial. He is not your wife.

Before moving to an intensive MC program. He doesn’t do IC but he said he can recommend a few that are familiar with the process.

Sounds to me like he is putting together a "pressure squad" to implement a "stay together plan".

Be wary, very wary. Continue your course. You are doing well.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 10:33 AM, September 9th (Wednesday)]

Both paths are capable of haunting you.

I am not haunted by my decision to divorce. I am haunted by it taking so long to get there and I am haunted by not seeing and/or willfully ignoring red flags. I certainly wouldn't want this:

I sometimes wonder where I'd be if I'd bailed fifteen years ago

I guess I did it all wrong by wanting to know it all. If you know there is more but you decide to not know it so it will make it easier to R then I consider that rug sweeping. If you are determined to know it all and it is ugly, very ugly, but you decide that you want to R and your WS is genuinely remorseful good for you. You're making a decision with full information.

One of the reasons I decided that D was the route for me was because I wasn't getting answers to questions I was asking. On top of that there was no attempt by my XWW to try and give me the answers. I never did get a timeline even. Only you, AH, can determine how much information is enough to make the decision you're going to have to make. Some don't want much. Some want it all.

Thoughts on what the pastor had to say:

"WW is still not where she needs to be to help me heal but she has been making solid steps forward and if I'm willing to be patient with her he PROMISED she will exceed the expectation".

He meant well with this comment but he has NO IDEA if this will be the case and thus he's out of line making such a promise.

"He even said she was ahead of the curve comparing her to other cheating spouses".

He has no way of truly knowing where she's at because he's going on what she has told him what work she has done thus far.

"That this will apply to any woman I would consider in the future".

Well yes any potential woman COULD betray you but your WW has already done it and did it for a long time so she's already behind the eight ball on any comparison to another woman.

"The probability of my WW not cheating again is close to 100%".

He has NO clue if this would be the case and again he's off base even saying this.

"He knows my WW VERY well and knows her flaws".

Obviously he does NOT know your wife very well because I'm assuming he never thought she would be carrying on a multi year affair.

"If she follows with the right therapy she will be a woman any man would love to have as a partner".

Well he's absolutely right on the "IF"????

"That it will be a shame if I miss on that opportunity".

Sounds like he's trying to guilt you into giving her another chance.

"That it ALL depends on me if I want to save my marriage and if I choose to forgive to work toward healing and regaining the trust".

He's off base with this comment because most of it would depend on your wife and whether or not she could truly put the work in to show that she could be a safe partner but more importantly fix all the broken shit inside of her and there's a SHIT LOAD to fix. Also you can forgive her but that doesn't mean giving it another chance has to happen.

As you can see his agenda is to try to save your marriage when what he should be doing right now is trying to save your WW.

If (and it's a BIG "IF") your wife puts in the work to figure out what is broken inside of her and what made her do all of the shit she did (through years of IC), than and only than, could the marriage than start to be addressed if that's a door you'd be willing to open way down the line.