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BS Questions for WS - Part 14

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Username123 posted 1/17/2021 22:50 PM

Wayward spouses,

Was sex with your AP better than sex with your spouse ? If so did your spouse ask this question after Dday and did you answer honestly ?

MrsWalloped posted 1/18/2021 08:43 AM

Was sex with your AP better than sex with your spouse ? If so did your spouse ask this question after Dday and did you answer honestly ?

For me, the sex wasn't better as much as I was like a different person with the AP. It's not like I had mind blowing O's or anything like that (and I O'd maybe half of the time). But I was more adventurous and aggressive. I felt powerful. I fed off him wanting me and how that made me feel. So it was more intense. Honestly, I didn't care about him or his pleasure. It was really about how I was feeling. Some will probably translate that into the sex being better. I never thought of it that way. I thought of it as being different. Everyone is different. What I really like is the intimacy and closeness and that wasn't there. I definitely don't look back and think how much better the sex was because it frankly wasn't. I don't shy away from what it was but I also don't make it into something it wasn't.

Yes, my husband asked about it after DDay and yes, I answered honestly.

ff4152 posted 1/18/2021 09:22 AM

Username

At the time, I thought it was. I knew that the sky was the limit as far as the sexual menu was concerned with my AP. Something that I do not have with my wife.

But what I failed to consider are the things that I have with my wife that far outweigh the sex. I actually have an emotional connection with her that transcends sex. My wife is a part of me and I her. I would have never had that with my AP.

Sex is an important part of the relationship, but IMO not the most. Although the sex I have with my wife may be more “vanilla” it’s light years ahead of what I had with my AP.

Username123 posted 1/18/2021 10:19 AM

MrsWalloped,

Your answer was nightmarish for me.

You said: "But I was more adventurous and aggressive. I felt powerful. I fed off him wanting me and how that made me feel. So it was more intense." This certainly sounds better or at least like incredible sex. You actually said it is more intense. How can sex be more intense but not be better ? Was your husband crushed by this ?

"I don't shy away from what it was but I also don't make it into something it wasn't." This was hard to read.

Username123 posted 1/18/2021 10:21 AM

ff4152,

My wife gave me a milder form of your answer. She told me sex was always better with me because she loved me and had an emotional connection to me.

MrsWalloped posted 1/19/2021 09:06 AM

Your answer was nightmarish for me.

You said: "But I was more adventurous and aggressive. I felt powerful. I fed off him wanting me and how that made me feel. So it was more intense." This certainly sounds better or at least like incredible sex. You actually said it is more intense. How can sex be more intense but not be better ? Was your husband crushed by this ?

"I don't shy away from what it was but I also don't make it into something it wasn't." This was hard to read.


I'm sorry. I am more than 5 years out from DDay so sometimes I am a little clinical and matter of fact about things. There's also a ton of history and thoughts behind everything.

Look, everyone is different. For me, sex is about intimacy and connection, not just the act itself. More intense does not mean better for me. What does better mean to you? Many BS's are understandably concerned about this. I don't know your story but in my case, the AP was not different physically and he wasn't better at it. What drove me was in my head. It was psychological and emotional. Not physical. Yes, I enjoyed it. It's sex. But the fact that it was more intense isn't what it was about.

The intensity was because I needed him to act and talk to me in a certain way. My A with the AP was a fantasy that was wrapped up in a need for recognition as a person of value and that I was worthy of being loved. Without going into all of the messed up thinking behind it, I needed the AP to tell me he loved me and thought I was special. The sex was a means to an end. But the purpose was for him to talk to me and act in a way toward me that told me he loved me and valued me. The intensity wasn't for me from a sexual point of view. It was for him because of what I wanted to get from him, which wasn't the sex. So I pushed him and egged him on. Anyway, see? Honest.

Of course it hurt my husband. The whole thing hurt my husband.

She told me sex was always better with me because she loved me and had an emotional connection to me.

I understand that. But see what I wrote above about what better means. What does better mean to her and what does it mean to you? And if it wasn't better, then what drove her to the AP?

I'm not an expert in BS behavior and thinking. So I am apologizing if this comes off as insensitive or not my place. I don't intend it to be. I understand your concern about the sex. But I also think that getting to your WW's why's and what drove her to the A is more important. It's sex. She enjoyed it. She can say what she wants but she did. And I'm not saying she's lying. I get her. It's true. You and her have that emotional connection which does make the sex better. But she still did it. Why? What if she said the sex was horrible. Would that make it okay? But if she said the sex was amazing it's not? No. The important thing is her betrayal and cheating. That's the focus. I'm not downplaying the sex part, not at all. But I am saying that her downplaying the sex may make you feel better but it doesn't address the core issues which is that she cheated.

MrsWalloped posted 1/19/2021 09:40 AM

I just read some of the posts in your thread and have a better idea of where your questions are coming from. For what it's worth, I think @ChamomileTea is 100% right.

Username123 posted 1/20/2021 01:47 AM

MrsWalloped,

To be honest I did not understand your explanation of intensity. I understand intensity to be excitement and passion.

I have read several places that affair sex is more exciting because it is illicit, hidden, taboo and with a new person. I have read it is intoxicating.

Maybe I am making too many assumptions about affair sex. HikingOut said tonight that she has communicated with many waywards via private message about the topic of sex with their AP versus sex with their BS and almost all of them said sex with their BS was better. She actually said only three waywards said sex with their AP was better and one recanted. Those statistics certainly oppose my understanding of the quality of affair sex.

You said: "But I was more adventurous and aggressive. I felt powerful. I fed off him wanting me and how that made me feel. So it was more intense."

How did your husband process this kind of information ? Did he need to go to a therapist ?

[This message edited by Username123 at 1:52 AM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

Keepingit2gether posted 1/20/2021 07:24 AM

I’m not sure that there are many WS here that ended up divorcing, but my question is:

If you were the one who wanted out of the relationship after infidelity was discovered (my WS is adamant about being unhappy for a long time, which he never expressed ), did you ever think to yourself what an idiot you were later on? Did the genuine remorse ever come? How long did it take? Just wondering because even when I hear what my WH has discussed with others, it seems like he feels no remorse for what he did to me.

MrsWalloped posted 1/20/2021 07:29 AM

To be honest I did not understand your explanation of intensity. I understand intensity to be excitement and passion.

That's why this is not something that is a one size fits all. There's a lot of therapy and work that is behind my answer and maybe I shared too much. No, intense is not better. There was nothing about the hidden part that drove me or made it more exciting. That actually would have made it worse for me if I dwelled on that aspect of it.

I understand this is something you're struggling with. Please don't read too much into my language. There is nothing about the AP that I recall fondly of in any way and certainly not the sex part. What I felt was not due to the sex. The sex was a way to get those feelings from the AP. The sex itself didn't matter. I wasn't in the A for sex. Again, there's a lot behind all of this which is hard to put into a few short sentences and I went too deep with what I shared. Sorry.

How did your husband process this kind of information ? Did he need to go to a therapist ?
The whole thing was hard on him. He did not really get hung up on comparisons with the AP because it was no contest between them and my A wasn't about the AP at all. It was about me.

He did got to therapy. IMO all BS's should do that if they can to deal with the trauma and many normal feelings after DDay. I encourage you to do the same.

JBWD posted 1/24/2021 12:02 PM

To be honest I did not understand your explanation of intensity. I understand intensity to be excitement and passion.

I think there lots of intense emotions that you as a BS have experienced- Anguish, heartbreak, rage.

During my A I experienced so many intense, negative emotions. The anguish that was actually the result of an inability to square what I was doing with who I thought I was, was filtering through limerence into a dramatic (in all the worst ways) belief that I was a victim of a tragic fate, to have to choose between two great loves. I couldn’t intellectually accept that subtler emotions were more valuable because they deceive less. This is why I believe we all need to be conscious of the hazards in using emotions as clear metrics: They’re TERRIBLY susceptible to influence and unacknowledged biases that we can’t isolate at the time. I think a lot of members here are consistently on the side of having isolated such biases and worked to mitigate them as best we can.

Those statistics certainly oppose my understanding of the quality of affair sex.

I think it’s worth examining where your understanding of the qualities of affair sex comes from. If you’re a clinician who has methodically framed this question and incorporated controls to best manage the potential biases in observer and subject and minimize the potential ambiguities of the question, then you’re well on your way.

HOWEVER, what I say is not to insult or offend- Your ability to remain neutral and impartial on this subject is likely severely challenged. I think it is beyond “simply reasonable” to acknowledge that you are looking for certainty and reassurance, and that it’s hard to find when it comes from a WS, ESPECIALLY your own.

This question will always linger here and always generate significant emotion because of its primacy in so many As. But for it to be resolved for any one individual I believe it’s critical to

1) Frame what the resolution will look like:
-What defines “better”?
-Does the honest answer affect a decision to D or R?
-What does the questioner think the answer will be and
how does he/she plan or want to resolve a discrepancy
2) Be patient with the knowledge that the answer might not be satisfactory for the questioner for any number of reasons.

Most times I see this question answered I sense that the answers given by WS are dismissed as evasive or dishonest, often due to lots of qualifying statements- “Different” or “incomparable.” That’s understandable especially based on the fact that we’re in many ways strangers to one another. My only thought for individuals dissatisfied with the forum results is to ensure that you can adequately frame what is satisfactory for you in your primary relationships, and publicize those boundaries with your respondents.

A good read that relates: “The Righteous Mind” by Jonathan Haidt. The whole first section of the book details how the human mind follows emotion primarily, and will very effectively retrofit reason to decisions that are contrary.

[This message edited by JBWD at 12:06 PM, January 24th (Sunday)]

JBWD posted 1/24/2021 12:28 PM

KIT2,
My scenario not quite your WH’s, but I thought you could use an answer.

did you ever think to yourself what an idiot you were later on?

Yes, frequently. But it wasn’t enough to consistently affect my behaviors and, more importantly, the underlying assumptions that I used to rationalize. I quickly realized what I had lost in the true partner I had dismissed, but I was far too long focused on what I had lost as our M buckled under my weight.

Did the genuine remorse ever come?

Yes, but it was after almost a year of truly living in consequence, and primarily alone. I’ll tell you frankly that NC from a BP can challenge this- Until I absorbed conversations with BPs here, I assumed that my BW was out living a life of hedonistic excess after being unshackled from me. I still have brief flashes of that when I feel especially rejected, but she isn’t and it ultimately doesn’t matter if she is or not.

It doesn’t matter because ultimately her feelings and actions are hers. Your WH’s are his. Yours are yours. Doubt is natural and will show up at the worst possible times. I know your WH’s games are getting old, but just think through this question-
Would someone who genuinely cared about my well-being subject me to these inconsistencies?

hikingout posted 1/26/2021 15:40 PM

I’m not sure that there are many WS here that ended up divorcing, but my question is:
If you were the one who wanted out of the relationship after infidelity was discovered (my WS is adamant about being unhappy for a long time, which he never expressed ), did you ever think to yourself what an idiot you were later on? Did the genuine remorse ever come? How long did it take? Just wondering because even when I hear what my WH has discussed with others, it seems like he feels no remorse for what he did to me.

I did not divorce, but I feel rather sure about the answer to your question.

When people have an affair, they know it's wrong. So, they build up justifications in their head so they can feel better about what it is they are doing.

An affair that goes on for a decent length of time means that the WS continues to dehumanize, minimize, and exaggerate the flaws of their current spouse.

So, many of us who did not divorce still have to work to reverse the way we are thinking. We have to gain perspective over what it is that we did.

Those who do divoce, I imagine do not have a lot to hold their feet to the fire in becoming introspective or self aware. So, I would say a fair amount of people leave with the perceptions they gave themselves based on what they concentrated on. In order to admit you were a good spouse or have the many great qualities that I am sure you do, it would mean he would have to admit his gigantic shortfalls and bad decisions.

I will tell you, I have a long term coworker that had an affair and left her husband and remarried to her AP. It took a while but things she says now give her ex-husband a lot more credit than she ever did when she was married. I would not say that she is unhappy with the AP husband, but I would say that she does now appreciate many of the strengths of her ex husband. And, she has a lot of shame, regret, guilt over what she did. It took getting to a place in life where she wasn't having to justify her decisions any more that she could stop and evaluate her decisions from a non-defensive way.

I think the most important thing you can do for yourself is to recognize this person does not define your value. You define your value. It will take some time to get there emotionally as you sort through the feelings of pain, anger, abandonment, etc. But, even though he was able to disregard you and your life together doesn't mean it didn't have value. His input on that, and judgment is skewed by his selfishness and cognitive dissonance. In the end, it was he that didn't have value as a husband, as he showed his lack of integrity and has done nothing to try and redeem it. I know that's an easier thing to see logically rather than to feel emotionally, but the more you frame it in that way I think you will find your emotions begin at some point to catch up with your logic.

achilles1101 posted 1/30/2021 19:52 PM

Ok, what was the I was trying to protect you thing all about?

MrsWalloped posted 2/1/2021 11:22 AM

Hi Achilles1101.

Ok, what was the I was trying to protect you thing all about?

I'm not really sure about the context, but I'm going to assume you mean when WS's lie and when we're caught we say we were trying to protect you?

If that's so, then I think there are two things going on. The first is that we're really trying to protect ourselves by not admitting everything we did or our feelings about the AP, the sex, or whatever.

The second really depends on the situation. The WS caused the BS a tremendous amount of pain and wants to minimize that pain as much as possible. Maybe for selfish reasons, maybe because they still care and love the BS. But by this point it's too late. The BS is already in pain. But by lying or not being completely honest or forthcoming, the WS thinks they're helping the BS. Of course it's also self-serving because it minimize or rug sweeps what we did. The problem also is that it just adds to the untrustworthy part. More lying doesn't help.

achilles1101 posted 2/3/2021 10:37 AM

MrsWalloped,

Sorry for the lack of context. When I confronted my WW, I had limited knowledge of the extent of the affair. She admitted to basically what she thought I knew and denied anything else occurred.

Fast foreword to D Day 2 and when everything came out about the extent of the affair, she claimed she didn't tell me everything initially because she was protecting me. She claims it was to limit the amount of hurt or pain for me.

I get her trying to protect herself, but I really didn't understand trying to protect me. She already hurt me.

Thanks

Username123 posted 2/4/2021 22:07 PM

As a BS I want to know what it is like to be a remorseful WS.

What is the worst part(s) of being a remorseful WS ?

SadieMae posted 2/5/2021 09:38 AM

How do you, as a WS, not allow yourself to get bogged down in your own shame when your BS is sharing their feelings about the A? How do you keep from making it about you and let it be about your BS?

JBWD posted 2/5/2021 10:04 AM

What is the worst part(s) of being a remorseful WS ?

My situation is unique on SI, but my worst part is watching my STBXBW suffer on her own. I wish she could heal, and I further wish she could heal and be open to building a new relationship. I put the odds of the former happening around 60%, and the latter at less than 1%. The wanting to R is a huge block for me, but regardless I see enough of her suffering to know she’s struggling.

So knowing that there’s no way I can help is a profound sense of helplessness. I’ve used the analogy before of those old submarine movies- The inevitable scene where a compartment gets flooded and the stragglers get locked in, still visible and desperate to survive. So it’s a strange twist on survivor’s guilt- Because I survive not as a victim but as the perpetrator.

foreverlabeled posted 2/5/2021 11:00 AM

What is the worst part(s) of being a remorseful WS ?
I'm not sure how to answer that because I don't think there is any part of my remorse that could fall in line with this kind of question. If anything it would be that when one is truly sorry and remorseful that tends to become a part of you and stays with you. Its very painful, and I'm not so sure I'll ever not feel that pain when I think about my cheating. I hate with everything in me how I so traumatically destroyed someone. So I guess that's the worst part.

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