SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello all!

First I want to apologize for sporadically coming on here in the past 6-12 months to post and then bailing without engaging much in the replies. I was just very depressed. I think I also developed a love/hate relationship towards support groups because I was very committed to taking some kind of high road and not defining myself in terms of the affair and separation.

I'm a bit more whole now and back in semi-regular counselling. My separation was over 18 months ago. She cheated for 4.5 years with my son's best friend's dad, with worse to follow after I found out in 2018. So much water under the bridge.

I earn a lot more than her. We have enormous family debts because she didn't work when I was in school, and we had kids, so I took out huge loans to cover living expenses. *All* these debts are mine now, and I have a massive support obligation on top of that. She's developed a view of the world in which I am the sole reason she has no stable career all these years later. It's an easily accepted view for most of our mutual friends, like an easily recognized motif in our culture. As it is with everything, there's a hint of truth to it in a limited way, but now it's been weaponized beyond recognition. We were inches away from a separation agreement this month, and now with some clever/shady math, her lawyer is attempting to claw back almost all of my equity in our jointly owned home (which she resides in and which I was selling to her at a steep discount). She's accusing me of hiding assets that were documented in plain sight from day one. She is distorting things dramatically - for example claiming that she has been watching them for me 30-40 hours per week during the pandemic, while the correct number is 0 to 10 hours per week made up for by evenings and overnights I'm taking in lieu. My ex doesn't even realize what's happening because her understanding of the accounting is not good, so she keeps telling me I'm confused/uninformed/etc. I'm sure this is all driven by an understandable fear of her own future. Maddening though.

I'm finding myself at a new low because that was my shot at having a down payment for a home, and now it has fizzled away and isn't likely to return soon because of my debt obligations. As a physician I know my life is very privileged. But while being unable to afford a home at this point in my career is really frustrating, being called a "cheat" at the same time is just intolerable.

I dated for about six months, as you can see my previous posts on this where most of you advised me to run away. Yeah, it was a bit rocky. In the end, the relationship was worthwhile, but it ended in a mess after she had a nervous breakdown because of some unrelated issues she was facing. She's seeing a psychiatrist and is on medications now, and I'm sure she'll be fine, but I had to make a hard choice to keep my distance for my own sake and for my kids.

So, I'm back to struggling with some things I thought I'd put to rest, and back to the forum. New Beginnings because I don't want to backtrack to the Separation forum.

Struggling with the frustration of watching her claim to be working collaboratively, telling friends and family that she is being extraordinarily generous and is allowing me to "cheat" her out of her "entitlement," while her actual legal correspondence has suddenly become steeped in provocation and lies and distortions. It shifted from collaborative to adversarial so fast. My own lawyer was taken aback and explained that this is typical of the specific lawyer she hired.

Struggling with other people in general as a result. I'm back to feeling suspicious of anyone who knows her and isn't repulsed by her. If I see a friend chatting with her on her porch, my automatic first thought is, "so long, sucker."

Struggling again with the basic fact that I kept relatively quiet about her lies and infidelity. I'm still committed to not widely advertising that because of the children and in the interest of collaborative negotiation, but f***, people do not know one tenth of the story.

Struggling with loneliness, but also not interested in being around people really right now, other than my kids whom I adore more than ever. I'm struggling to decide whether this is pathological or necessary for this stage of my life. Not sure if I should be pushing myself to socialize like I did last year, or working on accepting myself as I am, an introvert who likes to go on solo hikes and meditate and read books on my evenings off from parenting.

Struggling with the idea of ever "taking care of anyone" ever again. I really made some poor choices with respect to providing for another individual who I cared about. I have to believe there are partners out there who value their own independence and don't see relationships as markers of status or a means to financial freedom - it's just that some days I have my doubts and don't want to bother because I feel I'm likely to be deceived.

This time I'm posting to hear if this "second wave" (covid-speak) of self-doubt and frustration rings true for anyone else. I really want to find the path that does not define me in terms of feeling taken advantage of. At the same time I think I'm lacking some validation that yes, I'm being taken advantage of, and that's important to recognize in a way. But that's so tricky, because I don't want to be a broken record with a friend, I don't want to be seen as "the bitter guy," etc, so I limit that to therapy mostly. Right now I'm exploring mindfulness and some Eastern philosophy in some depth - non-dual awareness, self-compassion/metta, etc - and I think it's a good way forward for me, but I could use some perspective from others who have gotten through this.

Struggling with the frustration of watching her claim to be working collaboratively, telling friends and family that she is being extraordinarily generous and is allowing me to "cheat" her out of her "entitlement," while her actual legal correspondence has suddenly become steeped in provocation and lies and distortions. It shifted from collaborative to adversarial so fast. My own lawyer was taken aback and explained that this is typical of the specific lawyer she hired.

Uffda, I'm sorry. Just get through it the best you can and let your lawyer do the legwork.

Struggling with other people in general as a result. I'm back to feeling suspicious of anyone who knows her and isn't repulsed by her. If I see a friend chatting with her on her porch, my automatic first thought is, "so long, sucker."

TBH, this is a good point in your life to reevaluate 'friendships and acquaintances and jettison those that will not add positivity to your life on a go-forward. And I would feel the same (and did!) after S/D. I lost some folks too, but really haven't missed the ones that are gone.

I feel ya on the general struggle with people. I am sure you are, but I think with the state of the flaming dumpster of a world right now, these kinds of feelings are being exacerbated. You won't always feel like this.

Struggling again with the basic fact that I kept relatively quiet about her lies and infidelity. I'm still committed to not widely advertising that because of the children and in the interest of collaborative negotiation, but f***, people do not know one tenth of the story.

To tell or not to tell... It's good that you're looking at the bigger picture. If biting your tongue is what has to happen for you to get clear of it? Then it sucks, but do it.

And yeah people don't know. But a lot of people wouldn't 'care' even if they did. Most people will not confront shit like that and will just keep the boat as still as possible. Now if you tell them and they tell her to go fuck off? Those are the ones you want to keep in your tribe.

I have had one 'friend' since all this that confessed to me that she had cheated on her husband. I told her I can no longer tolerate people in my life who feel like that is acceptable. Also had one of my guy friends who's wife stepped out. Same thing. I will not tolerate cheaters in my life in ANY capacity. And my circle of peeps that is left? yeah they all share that viewpoint.

Struggling with loneliness, but also not interested in being around people really right now, other than my kids whom I adore more than ever. I'm struggling to decide whether this is pathological or necessary for this stage of my life. Not sure if I should be pushing myself to socialize like I did last year, or working on accepting myself as I am, an introvert who likes to go on solo hikes and meditate and read books on my evenings off from parenting.

I think it's necessary for your healing. Learn to recognize the difference between being alone and being lonely. Being alone can be so good for you. And there is not a damn thing wrong with being an introvert. I don't know why so many people feel like introverts have to force themselves to go socialize. Go be social if you feel like it. If not? Do your thing.

And yeah your stbxww sounds like a real peach (she said, sarcastically). It sucks right now, but my guess is after the papers are signed off and this thing is done, you will start turning around. Just be patient with yourself.

Wow- you have had a tough time. I am so sorry. What I noticed is your self reflection is honest and clear. You are trying to find and heal your issues and move forward.

I know, in my case, until I was through the divorce, I was a wreck. The back and forth between the lawyers about did me in- and his lawyer was a manipulative aggressive woman that thought nothing about putting my beloved daughter on the stand to testify against her mother. (We never went to trial, but that child, now a young adult still has issues from that terrible time)

So, everything you're feeling is a result of all this trauma. It's normal.

Since the ex and her attorney are being difficult about the house and trying to jerk you around what about just selling it outright and you both find new places to live. Maybe that would be a solution?

I'm back to feeling suspicious of anyone who knows her and isn't repulsed by her. If I see a friend chatting with her on her porch, my automatic first thought is, "so long, sucker."

Good for you. This is very common. In my case, anyone that was friends with him was no longer my friend. I couldn't trust them and in 99.5% of the cases they were not interested in hearing the truth.

I did find out years later, that many people saw what was really happening, but they stayed quiet and out of it. 5 -8 years after the divorce I had several come up and tell me they knew what had happened and were rooting for me all along. It warmed my heart and I did burst into tears once in my car...tears of relief.

You see, you don't really know what is going on in other people's heads. And anyway, it's not your business what they think of you. It's your business to know your truth and behave with integrity setting a good example of reliability and love for the kids.

Keep posting and reaching out for support here at SI. We are in the business of guiding people out of the quagmire and to not only survive infidelity but to thrive. You will get there too.

Struggling with the idea of ever "taking care of anyone" ever again. I really made some poor choices with respect to providing for another individual who I cared about. I have to believe there are partners out there who value their own independence and don't see relationships as markers of status or a means to financial freedom - it's just that some days I have my doubts and don't want to bother because I feel I'm likely to be deceived.

I get this. I have decided that I can't afford to get married again because I am not interested in starting all over financially for a third time. I take care of me just fine and even if I were to meet and have a relationship with a man who made a great deal more money than I do, I'd be unlikely to stop working and be taken care of because not being self-sufficient is terrifying to me at this point. I wouldn't know how to handle that. Lots of women value their own careers and don't need to have a status symbol partner. You don't want anyone so shallow anyway.

I don't know how old you are, but if you're not a young man, I'd be wary of any incredibly gorgeous younger women who find you unrealistically irresistable at the first mention of "Dr.", lol.

Struggling with loneliness, but also not interested in being around people really right now, other than my kids whom I adore more than ever. I'm struggling to decide whether this is pathological or necessary for this stage of my life. Not sure if I should be pushing myself to socialize like I did last year, or working on accepting myself as I am, an introvert who likes to go on solo hikes and meditate and read books on my evenings off from parenting.

I think that it is absolutely healthy to accept yourself as you are, period. You are a deep-thinking introvert who doesn't require constant company. That's a very good thing in COVID times, for sure. There's nothing wrong with socializing and I find that I have to force myself to do that sometimes for my own mental health, but socializing doesn't have to be dating. You may not be ready to date. Let your heart and mind heal and be at peace with yourself before you get back on that wagon.

Here's some validation...your ex-wife sucks as a human being. You are being treated unfairly. You didn't break the marriage and it is outrageous that you have to pay her for doing so. It is offensive as heck when men or women who make more money have to pay money to help the cheater transition into divorced life. I took quite a financial hit myself, though I don't have to pay him anything. I just got left with all of the bills and had to sell off my classic car. That alone is appalling to me, and it is smaller than what you have going on financially.

Oh, and I also dropped some friends who were worried about my XWH and wanted to check in with him after I left. I didn't want to leave him without friends, but I also don't need to be close with people who are trying to be close with him. I have no desire to accidentally run into him at a gathering because he was invited too.

If your gut is saying 'so long, sucker', listen to it. Just make sure that friend is not on your STBXWWs porch to yell at her for being a cheating ho.

Unspecified, its never too late to wrong the right. Stop covering of your ex. Your plan to keep the peace and play nice guy backfired on you. When what you've been trying doesn't work, you know the drill.

With that said, take it easy on yourself. If you enjoy introverted pass times like reading, and solo hikes, nothing wrong with that. At some point, you'll find some company that you feel comfortable to bring on those journeys, until then, remember you have baby momma drama, and not many women want to be a part of that. Be happy with your alone time until this gets worked out.

As for the friends, its all good. Let her have them, they are not winning by having her as friends and vice versa. Find new ones when you are ready, or not, if you want to be alone. As for being taken advantage of, thats never going to go away as a high earner. I'm in a similar boat, so best thing you can do there is to find someone intelligent with her own career and her own money. That will solve that problem for you and they have online dating for those sorts of professionals.

Lastly, as you let your attorney handle the negotiations and finality of your divorce, really ask yourself if you attorney is fighting for you, or just fighting to wrap up your case. There is a difference. It depends on what you want. Sometimes, people are just interested in getting the D done. I know I was. If that is what you want, you may have to let a little bit go. If you're really interesting in fighting, take a closer look at your attorney. Is he/she a fighter, or someone who just wants to wrap it up as well. Many of them have lots of cases they are working on, so figure out what you want, and how they are working towards you agenda. If you feel the exWW is being a cheat, don't take that shit. If she is spreading rumors about your around town, your attorney should send her side a letter. Same with anyone else who is spreading these unfounded rumors.

Thanks folks. Really helpful comments.

You are a deep-thinking introvert who doesn't require constant company. That's a very good thing in COVID times, for sure. You may not be ready to date. Let your heart and mind heal and be at peace with yourself before you get back on that wagon.

If you enjoy introverted pass times like reading, and solo hikes, nothing wrong with that. At some point, you'll find some company that you feel comfortable to bring on those journeys, until then, remember you have baby momma drama, and not many women want to be a part of that. Be happy with your alone time until this gets worked out.

You're right, dating with this in the background is not worth it at the moment. Good point about the pandemic exacerbating this, too. Everyone is a little stand-off-ish right now. If you suggest a backyard BBQ, the first question back is "are we doing that now?" Definitely the age of introverts.

If your gut is saying 'so long, sucker', listen to it. Just make sure that friend is not on your STBXWWs porch to yell at her for being a cheating ho.

lol.

Lastly, as you let your attorney handle the negotiations and finality of your divorce, really ask yourself if you attorney is fighting for you, or just fighting to wrap up your case. There is a difference. It depends on what you want.

I want it wrapped up. Early on, she was also committed to this, but gradually with her lawyer's help it became exclusively about what she is "legally entitled to" and I became basically a number to her. It isn't surprising, is it, given how we got here. It took me a long time to accept I was just going to have to make concessions in order to move things forward. I know court is an option, but it remains one to avoid in my opinion.

In our last round, she decided to take the joint home off the market and buy out my equity. My share was calculated out to X which was entered into the agreement as an "equalization payment" to avoid land transfer taxes and so forth. Her lawyer then did some shady math with the pension, basically counting it here again against the home equity. It's complex but really frustrating and questionable given that my net worth is *extremely* negative even if I keep the pension, which isn't huge (only a few years out of school) but is comparable to the home equity.

The reality of this is that my ex has zero understanding of accounting and spreadsheets, so if I propose something, she gets confused and assumes I'm tricking her. So, her lawyer gets his way every time, even though she still claims this is "collaborative law." Oy.

I am fairly sure my lawyer is skilled and acting appropriately. In our visits, she usually lays out a number of arguments, varying in aggressiveness. Then she asks me how I'd like to proceed and we discuss which options will lead to more or less adversarial responses. I like the approach.

This may be one last pill to swallow - letting her basically have the house, which we owned for 12 years, for a few thousand bucks, and just resolving to rent for the next 5 years. I will move on at least knowing I smoothed out one more potential bump in the road for my kids, who won't have to move yet again. Renting has not been entirely bad and in the long run I'll have security one way or the other. Big picture.

Thanks again guys for the perspective.

It sucks that you have to keep being the better person but just wanted to reaffirm to you that you are. Your kids will see it and know it one day. They will appreciate that about their dad. You are a solid guy having to swallow a big pill and keep it down. When I read through your posts I see your heart for your kids and you have my respect for that. I bet other people IRL know this about you too even if they don't tell you.

[This message edited by Jesusismyanchor at 11:30 PM, July 2nd (Thursday)]

Kind words. Thanks. :)

You folks are like the boxing coach that spins the guy around and shoved him back in the ring. Hooray for common humanity.

I felt better enough this week, after this, some therapy, and some good coffee visits with some friends, to get myself a date lined up next week. Nothing to rush this time.

Happy 4th of July to those of you south of the border!

Bigger picture - what is more important to you? To have her out of your life or money? How much money? As you know the details, only you can make that decision. Clearly, your STBXWW is showing you that the biggest issue for her IS money. That is how she wins.

And as for mutual friends, it is probably in your best interest to be cautious. I wouldn't discuss any thoughts on the D with a mutual friend, as your WW seems the type to try to dig up any information like that to use to her advantage. It seems you've figured this out already, but it helps some of us to be reminded.

I have to believe there are partners out there who value their own independence and don't see relationships as markers of status or a means to financial freedom

Yes there are. Just be careful, since you are a doctor, you are a target, there is no way around it. Especially watch out for anyone much younger, I have noticed through the years 'gold diggers' most often don't know they are 'gold diggers'. They honestly believe they love the target, until things get real and then they are miserable because they were never compatible to begin with.

Since you went right into another relationship, you haven't truly healed yet. I think it's great you are doing the solo stuff. I personally am an introvert that loves to socialize but only sometimes. Being female it sucks that I can't enjoy a long serious hike without always being a little nervous. If I were you I would really appreciate those quiet times.

My sister has been with her new partner after divorcing her cheater for over 14 years now (can't remember exactly). They never mixed money and it works for them. I personally think it's a good idea to keep it that way but to each his own.

It doesn't matter what your exes reasons are for her new numbers. My lawyer always stressed, you both list your expenses, your income, assets, and in the end if you both don't agree, a judge will decide. If it's getting to the point where you have all the debt, are losing a big chunk of the house, and paying her, it is getting out of balance and you may do better in court. Just a thought. No matter how hard it is now, you will not regret fighting. SHE is the cheater here, this wasn't you leaving, so no reason to be anything but as tough as possible. Don't feel bad if you want a new tougher lawyer, this is your future you are dealing with. This is just another job for the lawyer.

I am not sure if these negotiations are ever verbal/texting between the two of you, but if it ever is, it really needs to stop for your own healing. All negotiations should only be through your lawyer.

Take care, and enjoy being one of my fellow introverts. I think we all question ourselves on this, thanks Devestated Dee for making us feel more solid on that:-)

EDIT: A judge will not like the idea of her having a home, and you paying her so much you can't afford one. It seems off. There is no reason you can't threaten having to just sell that house and you both end up with smaller homes. That is what happens in divorce. Life styles change FOR BOTH parties. Also, remember to document every hour you have the children.

[This message edited by Anna123 at 8:23 AM, July 6th (Monday)]

It's a very odd position to feel suspicion that my date is after my money, or more likely as you say Anna their judgement is being clouded by the prospect of money even if they have good intentions. Made more odd by the fact that I don't have any money.

Made *even more odd* by the odd rift between me and colleagues. Doctors like to talk about their money. I think it comes from the decade of delayed gratification and trauma at the hands of residency programs. Anyway, it isn't much fun to hear about a friend's new cabin and boat which replaces the other boat they bought "just to see if they liked boats."

Occasionally, just occasionally, I want to smack them.

Something that I and the kids both liked was astronomy. Check out some YouTube videos, you might be interested.

About the other stuff, Yeah, I get it and I'm sorry that it is happening to you. BTDT.

Actually, I need to expand on that last bit.

Before someone offers this, I'm sold on the notion that boats and cabins and second boats don't represent the most direct path to happiness.

Still, I'm often surprised by how annoyed I can become when I stumble on these little reminders of everything that's been lost.

It doesn't have to be money. It could be a Friday night with no plans. Or a quiet house where the kids are conspicuously absent. Or a cold shoulder from a former "mutual friend." Or a bad date that makes me think (momentarily!) that single people over 30 are just scraping the bottom of the barrel... Or today, being handed down major changes at my work that are going to reduce my income, all the while knowing the support payments won't budge a penny.

It's like despite how much I practice forgiveness, or focus on the new chapter and fill it with new experiences, sometimes something happens that just draws a dark line straight back to that time my ex-wife f***ed her son's friend's dad/my friend/her colleague for 4 years.

It's a "victim" mindset that I find I'm repeatedly having to confront.

So maybe what I was getting at in my original post is better stated like this: do you think people ever *really* put the pain/victimhood to rest permanently? Like, on a deep, existential level, the level you sometimes find yourself on after a long, shitty day? Can I eventually get off the merry-go-round? Does one need a new partner to do that?

[This message edited by unspecified at 9:09 PM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

Thanks devoted. I do own a telescope, it was a hobby in my teens.

Now if only I could stay awake after the sun goes down at 10 pm during the summer. :)

[This message edited by unspecified at 9:10 PM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

the "woe is me" mindset is an easy one to fall into. Moving responsibility for one's part in something to someone or something else. Also, moving happenstance to a malign universe.

This removes, in the final, ad nauseum analysis, free will and growth and personal responsibility. It also isn't very attractive to the opposite sex.

Try re-framing it like this: My partner was untrustworthy. My partner was a cheat, a liar, and felt entitled to be that way.

Then ask yourself: What red flags did I miss? Were those red flags somehow attractive to me? How can I grow to recognize and avoid those qualities in a future partner?

I am not saying that your former spouse's cheating is your responsibility. I am saying that choosing your former, broken, partner was a choice made with insufficient regard to red flags.

Invest your time in learning to recognize And diagnose those flags just like you've spent time in learning to recognize And diagnose physical maladies.

[This message edited by devotedman at 8:35 AM, July 15th, 2020 (Wednesday)]

It's a process and harder for some to get over the victim mentality, but time will get you there if you work at it.

Most of the time I'm okay, but when things are tough at work and I realize that instead of retiring in a couple years I have over an extra decade to work because of her greediness That pisses me off. I'll likely die before I retire instead of enjoying retirement and that pisses me off too, but I don't know what is going to happen so I just keep at it and in the end what will be will be.

It doesn't help that after she got her seven figure cash payout her response was "I didn't need all that money, I just did it to punish you" Of course I know that was just a lie to try and hurt me, because that is who she is. It sounds like your ex is a similar kind of person.

Try to live the best life you can and find things to do that bring joy to your life. Having a few of those can have a major impact on your outlook. Also one thing I would do differently is I would hire a shark of a lawyer instead of trying to collaborate. Collaboration only works well when both people are reasonable. Your WW is pulling a lot of the same things my ex did. You'll get past this, but it's not a fun journey.

being handed down major changes at my work that are going to reduce my income, all the while knowing the support payments won't budge a penny.

Are you sure about that? Typically if your income changes, you can adjust CS. And if you are still negotiating, then it definitely should.

It could be a Friday night with no plans. Or a quiet house where the kids are conspicuously absent. Or a cold shoulder from a former "mutual friend." Or a bad date that makes me think (momentarily!) that single people over 30 are just scraping the bottom of the barrel

I can relate to that feeling. One important thing to consider when dating is that most people like to be around other people who are happy and full of life. I know that can be hard right now, and so maybe you shouldn't be dating, if you can't focus on the positive. The same with your friends. If you're feeling down, might not always be the best time to get together. Your friends shouldn't mind helping to lift your spirits sometimes, but if it happens a lot, they might be "busy" the next time.

I'm sorry I don't have a cure for you. I wish you the best and I hope you can see that things will improve.

So maybe what I was getting at in my original post is better stated like this: do you think people ever *really* put the pain/victimhood to rest permanently? Like, on a deep, existential level, the level you sometimes find yourself on after a long, shitty day? Can I eventually get off the merry-go-round? Does one need a new partner to do that?

I'm several years out, but I remember these thoughts well. I'm also someone who had to pay a ton for the legal battle and the ultimate settlement. It used to really really piss me off. Now it just chaps me vaguely from time to time. Sometimes I wondered what my hard work was paying for...but you know - by now it's gone and was probably wasted so...whatever.

Moving out of victimhood has a lot to do with putting a whole bunch of days behind you where you find some new joy (for lack of a better word - peace, serenity, non-drama, mindfulness - those things) completely outside of that relationship. Each day. Maybe it was a moment at work. Or with your kids. Perhaps *with* a new person in your life but not just *because* you have a new person. For me, most all the good healing came all on my own. Waking up and looking at myself in the mirror every morning while I brushed my teeth. Living quietly. Rediscovering things in my life. Learning new stuff. Doing some uncomfortable work. And ultimately loving being by myself.

And as others here have alluded - owning my part in that relationship. I had to look at choosing to be and stay with a person who was capable of doing such things. There was a bit there to unpack, but it felt really good on the other side.

But as a little check on yourself - all that stuff I mentioned above? Zero none zilch nada until the legal battle was done. No way no how. You two have serious unfinished business. How are you supposed to truly move forward until this is done? I had my guard up big time on my emotions during all of that whether I fully realized it or not. Once it was signed and sealed, then I could get down to taking a good look at my future in a real way. It's like you've pulled up the anchor on your boat. (the one yet to be purchased someday if you decide you really do like boats). But you've not winched it up on deck all the way and are still dragging it around while trying to motor forward. Nope.

Perhaps these Covid-y days are fortuitous in that everyone getting out of infidelity and relationships can benefit from a big helping of the introvert thing.