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Butforthegrace posted 6/1/2020 06:25 AM

This is true. We have both been on meds at various times that have impacted our sex lives. When neither of us are on them we are good. When one of us is, it is less so. When both of us are it is pretty barren.

This answer feels dishonest. I don't care if you're honest with me, or us on this board, but you can't heal if you're not honest with yourself, and if that is what you're telling yourself at present, then brother you're not on a path of healing.

As I understand it, the marriage had reached a point of sex maybe once or twice a year, for years. That is essentially a sexless marriage. Most marriages that reache that level of sexlessness come from a chronic pattern of a low desire partner habitually and repeatedly denying a high desire partner. Who was the LD/HD in your marriage? We know that your WW desired sex more often that she was having it with you, as evidenced by Exhibit A: she was choosing to lie and sneak to have sex with the AP more often that she had with you.

So what preceded that? Did you want more sex, but she kept demurring to the point where you stopped asking? Or was it you who was not showing your desire, retreating to your room and ignoring her as a woman?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:27 AM, June 1st (Monday)]

Dranth posted 6/1/2020 07:04 AM

Another quick updateÖ

I thought I had left sobbing uncontrollable in the rear-view mirror but turns out, not so much. Needless to say, this weekend sucked.

Something about seeing how she is changing, looking back at how we started, what we were, what we became, what she turned into. What a waste. What an absolute fucking waste.

I tried to explain it to her at one point and I donít think I got my point out very well but I am absolutely morning the person that I thought I had and what we could have been. That relationship is dead, that person is dead. She was on life support months before she even followed the AP to his place and died the day she did. I just didnít find out until later. Whoever I have been with since is not the woman I loved. This person lied to me, cheated on me, doesnít respect or care for me in any meaningful way. I donít like this person and I would never choose to be with her but at the same time it is still her.

I know they are one in the same. I know I have to completely merge these people into one and accept that it is a part of who she is/was if we are to even attempt R but it makes me so sad and pisses me off at the same time.

I see how hard she is trying and how much effort she has put in and count myself lucky in some ways when I consider the number of people here who donít get even get the slightest attempt from their WS. She still has a long way to go, oh so long and still makes mistakes but I see the effort, I see her trying. I see her catching herself more and more as time goes on. I have watched the horror of what she did really sink in over the months and while I donít think she has reached the bottom yet; I can see it really taking hold. I can see how disgusted she is with herself. How sick she gets at the idea of what she did. How angry she gets when thinking about how she let herself get to that point.

Where was that person all along?

Itís such a crappy feeling. Wanting things to work out but being pretty sure they canít. I just donít see how I ever accept what she did. I donít know if that is in me. She could be the perfect partner from now until the end of time and she will still be the person that did this to me. How does someone live with that? I just donít know if I can.

mike7 posted 6/1/2020 07:57 AM

Hey Dranth - I'm sorry you're suffering. It's understandable. What do you do in this situation when you don't think you can get over it? You wait until you know. Eventually, you'll know. Make the decision then. If you don't know and it provides you comfort to have her around, then have her around. You don't need to go any faster or slower than you want. If you don't know that you can get over it, you wait until you do. Breathe. Smell the roses. Think of all the things you have to be grateful for. It's so important to do that.

Let me give you an example. Lately I've been feeling at loose ends a little. Things aren't quite working out for me on some fronts. so I haven't been in a great mood. But then I think about a friend who is two years younger than me that had a stroke last year. I saw a video of him trying to learn to walk again. He's hooked up to a machine and has a therapist offering encouraging words. His fiancee dumped him, but then realized he had money and has decided to hang around a bit.

And then I go golfing. I really don't have much to be unhappy about.

Now, you DO have something to be unhappy about. I'm not saying you shouldn't be devastated. But you need to try to keep it in perspective. You're alive. She's alive. You both have enough to take care of yourself. Yeah, it sucks that the person you have isn't what you thought. But if possible, in the darkest times, try to keep it in perspective. I think a year from now, both of you will be happy regardless of the path you've chosen. You'll be ok. She may be sad when she thinks of what she lost, but she'll be ok too.

Good luck friend. Hang in there.

Dranth posted 6/1/2020 08:02 AM

Butforthegrace:

Who was the LD/HD in your marriage? We know that your WW desired sex more often that she was having it with you, as evidenced by Exhibit A: she was choosing to lie and sneak to have sex with the AP more often that she had with you.

It is much, much more complicated than this but if I was going to boil it down to its simplest form, she was almost always the lower desire one and yes, I very much got sick of being rejected repeatedly and that lead to me not trying very hard.


Yes, she desired sex with her AP more than me, that is fairly obvious. The question is why? If I am to believe her and other cake eating waywards, it wasnít because she was horny and needed some or that he had a magic dick that made everything amazing and 24/7 orgasms. It was because feeling wanted was so powerful that it was drug like and giving him sex was the only way to make sure he kept wanting her. I compare it in my head to being a prostitute. She did her ďjobĒ to get what she really wanted.

Dranth posted 6/1/2020 08:17 AM

gmc94:

Thank you. I needed that. There is a lot more I would like to say right now but I am not sure I have it in me at the moment. Please just know I appreciate it.

Dranth posted 6/1/2020 08:27 AM

mike7:

What do you do in this situation when you don't think you can get over it? You wait until you know. Eventually, you'll know. Make the decision then.

This is what I need to do a better job with. I just get stuck in my head a lot when I donít have an answer to something and my natural inclination is to dig and dig away until I get one. Health wise I really should step back and just see what happens.

If you don't know and it provides you comfort to have her around, then have her around.

This. This amazes me how random it is. One time she can be the absolute thing I need and other times make things so much worse. Not surprising considering she is the source of this whole mess but such a weird thing to live through.

in the darkest times, try to keep it in perspective. I think a year from now, both of you will be happy regardless of the path you've chosen. You'll be ok. She may be sad when she thinks of what she lost, but she'll be ok too.

Thank you for this. Something I need to realize and do a better job of keeping in mind.

gmc94 posted 6/1/2020 09:45 AM

Dranth -

At 6 months I was pretty much a complete wreck, and had plenty of snot filled toddler-like crying sessions. I remember folks on SI telling me the grief is not linear. And they were right. Bouncing around the anger, depression, bargaining, denial and acceptance, felt like being a human ping pong of grief. It takes awhile.

And I remember the constant "why" and "for what" constantly hanging around, like the cloud of dirt that follows the Peanuts character Pig Pen. Our WS' LTAs sound pretty similar - simple, pure, cake eating variety, albeit inconsistent, but for a very long time.

It takes time to work through it all. As much as all those feelings suck, it's actually healthy to let them be felt and be processed.

Butforthegrace posted 6/1/2020 11:04 AM

It was because feeling wanted was so powerful that it was drug like and giving him sex was the only way to make sure he kept wanting her. I compare it in my head to being a prostitute. She did her ďjobĒ to get what she really wanted.

Right. So the response of many BH's in that fact pattern is: "Okay, so you say that what you want now is for me to want to remain married to you. What are you going to do for me to make me want that, and why should I believe it is sincere when, for years, you've been denying me sex, even though I wanted it. Was being married to me not enough of a motivator to be sexual with me before? Why is it now?"

Newlifeisgreat posted 6/1/2020 16:31 PM

There is nothing wrong if you say that what she did is simply a dealbreaker for you and file for divorce.

It was for me.

Personally I donít understand how someone could reconcile after a wife decided to give herself not to her husband, but another man.

To me, some sins are simply unforgivable. Infidelity is one of them. And if that was bad enough, she returned and gave you a sexually transmitted disease

Get yourself into counseling

Good luck
Stay strong
And do what you must to be able to look yourself in the mirror!!

numb&dumb posted 6/2/2020 08:05 AM

Hi Dranth,

To it sounds like you have lost hope in a better future. That by itself is soul crushing. I can tell you that it does get better. It gets better faster if you work at it individually without the distraction of a desperate WS trying to gauge where you are at. Most WS are still stuck in selfishness. In, short it is still all about them, their feelings, erasing their mistakes, trying to make the events play out like they always expected them to. Yes, most WS have a script in their head that they try to follow once they are caught.

Two things. Remorse and regret look close, but not the same thing. Most WS take a long time to reach real remorse. If she has not "hit bottom," yet than likely remorse isn't fully there yet. Many BS want to see remorse so bad that we tend to see what we want to. KWIM ? Regret is the desperation you likely see right now. It is all about preserving what they threw away. It has to be clear that since they threw it away it isn't coming back. Acceptance of that plus actively seeing this with your eyes and heart is key to obtaining remorse. When they say it is all about you, but their actions indicate otherwise. . . yeah not remorse. A WS at this stage is motivated by what they think they have to lose versus hoe bad they hurt someone they care about.

Also a part of my Ws A was her mental illness. While it can explain some of the details it doesn't excuse the choices or the behavior. It also can contribute to wayward behaviors in the past, present and future. Just something to think about.

I will let you in on a little secret almost all WS that want to save their M emulate remorseful behaviors. Of course these are the same people that are able to bury feelings and be deceptive enough to carry on an A. So take anything you are told right now with a grain of salt and only believe what you can confirm another way. Actions should always line up with their words.

Your W mental health issues have to be addressed before any R can take place. She needs to see a Pdoc and needs to draft a treatment plan. The hard part is that mental illness does not have and will be a contributing factor to future behavior. If it isn't addressed to your satisfaction you will live in fear of another manic episode.

In reading your last post it sounds like you don't see a way to continue your M. Your are well within your rights to make that choice. This is a long road with a lot of pain, sadness and uncertainty. If you want to be away from your W right now do whatever you can to create some space for yourself.

I know I paint a bleak picture, but my own story did not turn out that way. My W and I built a new M (after she treated her mental health issues) and I did a lot of IC.

My point is,right now, there are no "wrong" ways to deal with this. For right now I would make it a hard requirement for your W to seek out resources to try and address her mental health issues. These are biological differences in the brain that need to be treated medically.

I think a good first step would be for her to see a Pdoc. IF she saw one in the past . . .well she needs a different one.

She has a long road ahead of her a do you. IT will be along time before things get nowhere close to normal. I think you need some space away from her and likely a neutral third party to help understand what you really want and if your W is even possible of giving it to you.

You have to heal from this either way why not start that process that allows you to be happy again no matter whether you choose to rebuild a new relationship with your WS or someday with someone new.

Please be kind to yourself. As much as it feels contrary this isn't about you. It is about your W character deficit, mental health and what she intends to do to address those things. You can't do that for her. It will take time, along time. How long are you willing to wait for an outcome that is fully dependent on her fixing her own issues ?

Dranth posted 6/2/2020 11:07 AM

gmc94:

It takes time to work through it all. As much as all those feelings suck, it's actually healthy to let them be felt and be processed.

As much as I hate it, I know this is true. Iíve made so little progress closing in on 6 months that I can only imagine how much time this is going to take. I know I have to let those feelings out if I am ever going to work through them but holy hell am I sick and tired of feelings right now.

I know what to do, and I am doing my best to do it, it is just depressing and pisses me off how much the selfishness of other people screwed up my health, well-being, life, etc.


butforthegrace:

Right. So the response of many BH's in that fact pattern is: "Okay, so you say that what you want now is for me to want to remain married to you. What are you going to do for me to make me want that, and why should I believe it is sincere when, for years, you've been denying me sex, even though I wanted it. Was being married to me not enough of a motivator to be sexual with me before? Why is it now?"

Agreed. This sounds pretty similar to what I have felt/asked myself.

One of my conditions I put in place to even stick around and see if R was possible was that at least for the foreseeable future I was not going to seek her out at all. She needed to initiate things and if I was interested fine. If not, thatís okay as well. I have no interest in chasing her at this point as one, I feel like she would say yes regardless now and that feels forced to me. I am not interested in forcing anyone to do anything. Two, if she was honest and said no, she wasnít interested, her rejecting me again after she willing screwed some other guy just wasnít going to sit well.

Figuring out her whys is also a condition which includes answers to all those questions. Maybe I won't like the answers (doubt I will) but as long as they are honest at least it gives me something to work with.


Newlifeisgreat:

There is nothing wrong if you say that what she did is simply a dealbreaker for you and file for divorce.

I always thought it would be for me but something(s) is holding me back. Once I know I will move forward one way or the other.

I am seeing an IC.


numb&numb:

To it sounds like you have lost hope in a better future. That by itself is soul crushing.

Yes, and yes. I have lost hope at this point or at least feel like it much of the time. It sucks. What a waste of my life the last four years turned out to be and what a waste of a relationship that was once so promising. I know many if not everyone on this board can say the same thing and to me that just makes it even sadder. Really starting to understand just how many people do this to someone else is depressing.

Two things. Remorse and regret look close, but not the same thing. Most WS take a long time to reach real remorse. If she has not "hit bottom," yet than likely remorse isn't fully there yet.

No, she probably isnít there yet. Sometimes it seems like it more than others but now and the she will do something that makes me think she just doesnít get it. Hell, maybe I just canít really tell the difference yet.

Also a part of my Ws A was her mental illness. While it can explain some of the details it doesn't excuse the choices or the behavior. It also can contribute to wayward behaviors in the past, present and future. Just something to think about.

No, it doesnít. She still made the choice.

Her mental issues have been a problem in the past but it was more the depression then the bp. For a long time, it wasnít even diagnosed correctly and they had her on meds that made it worse. That was a fun time. Once they figured out the bipolar part of it, they switched up all the meds and have been working on getting it nailed down since then.

I know they changed her drugs around late last year and found a good combination that she claims has made a world of difference. Didnít stop her from screwing the AP more and more frequently towards the end but as she was already 3 Ĺ years in donít know why it would have stopped it at that point.

She also claims that she now knows what to look for. Since she has spent time reflecting on her past, she can see the signs of a manic episode starting and that makes a big difference. The question for me, is she telling me the truth? Followed closely by, does it matter if she sees it coming? Does that actually change anything?

Either way, her getting that worked out was also a requirement I listed to stay and see if we can R.

Actions should always line up with their words.

They have a good bit since DDay, not always, but more often than not they do. My issue is knowing are they genuine? Is she doing them because she should or because she wants to/means it? Is there really a difference in some cases? Is that how someone who is f-e dup enough to do this even get started? Do it until it becomes a habit and feels good, right?

I don't know but I will say some things felt right immediately, some didnít but do now, others Iím still not sure about.

As I think about it more, I think one reason I don't just call it is that I see her heading in the right direction which makes me want to stay and see where things go. I donít think she is anywhere near where she needs to be and I am sure it will take many more months/years but as long as I see progress, I feel like I should see what happens. At least until I wake up one day and know for sure that I am just done.

As much as it feels contrary this isn't about you.

Such an easy concept when you look at and it really makes sense but boy is it hard to accept.

coldheart99 posted 6/2/2020 11:49 AM

Big D,

If you have some close friends to confide in I would suggest maybe do a get away with them. Things are opening up in the USA now. just you and some buddies. Go fishing, hiking, lay on a beach, whatever.

It really helped me to get away from the shit show that was my WW. It allowed me to clear my head for a few days. If you do, don't tell her or ask. Just say see ya when I see ya. Also go NC while gone.

TimSC posted 6/4/2020 01:27 AM

You know if the STD had not been discovered and she knew she could not hide that from you, she would still be rejecting you and F-ing him more often.

Butforthegrace posted 6/4/2020 05:58 AM

One of my conditions I put in place to even stick around and see if R was possible was that at least for the foreseeable future I was not going to seek her out at all. She needed to initiate things

Was this something you told her expressly? Or was it something you had in your own mind as a bellwether? What has she been doing in this regard?

Dranth posted 6/4/2020 10:02 AM

butforthegrace:

Was this something you told her expressly? Or was it something you had in your own mind as a bellwether? What has she been doing in this regard?

Basically, I gave her a 5 page outline a few weeks after Dday with a list of all the things I needed from her to stick around and give her a chance to see if I would even consider R. I gave her a copy and she read the whole thing aloud while I read along. Afterwards we went back over it to clarify any questions she had. At that point I asked her if that was acceptable. If not, that was fine but I was done as these were requirements, not suggestions. I plan on pulling it back out at the 6-month mark if we are still together and going over it again to see where we are, how far she has come on each and what changes/additions I feel may need to be made.

It was mentioned specifically in that outline but I did not go into too much detail as I wanted to see how she would interpret and implement what I was saying or if she would bother to try at all.


I pulled the specific sections to paste here:

iii. You are going to have to take some sexual initiative as I am not in a place where I can handle being rejected by you so soon after you willingly went to him. Therefore, I am reluctant to initiate anything even when I am interested.

iv. If we stay together you are going to need to maintain that ability to initiate. Me always having to come to you made it harder to connect with you in many ways. Always having to start things made me feel as if I was begging or bothering you and if it didnít happen, I was always the one being rejected. That cannot continue.

She has done a pretty good job with the list so far and even better on this one in particular. She fails at times but I at least see her trying and getting upset when she slips. Many times, she will self-correct before I have to say something. Occasionally, I have to remind her or point out what she is/isnít doing.

I donít expect her to be perfect this soon but I do expect effort.

Stinger posted 6/4/2020 11:10 AM

Good luck making your decision. One year affair, many lies, disease given, involuntary confession. Your wife is seriously messed up. You are still young. I know you are considering all this.

MickeyBill2016 posted 6/4/2020 12:34 PM

I donít expect her to be perfect this soon but I do expect effort.

Right now she is acting like I did after I got a speeding ticket. I don't roll stop signs, I yield all the time and drive exactly the speed limit.

Expect that she will slip up, it may be a mistake or may be testing your limits as time passes and she tires of the rules and requests in your list.

She may have been scared straight, let's hope so. But for 4 years she was ok living a lie, that's more than a habit it's a lifestyle. A hard habit to break, it's going to take years to leave her head.

Dismayed2012 posted 6/4/2020 14:56 PM

"She could be the perfect partner from now until the end of time and she will still be the person that did this to me. How does someone live with that? I just donít know if I can."

This. That's why I divorced and moved forward with my life. We have very few years on this earth and I chose not to waste any more on the stranger that I didn't realize I'd married.

I wish the best for you.

numb&dumb posted 6/5/2020 11:04 AM

Such an easy concept when you look at and it really makes sense but boy is it hard to accept.

Dranth I am a long ways out, so keep that it mind.

The above is meant to help you detach some and realize that you have choices. When I first came here broken and bleeding I too looked at that and knew that it logically makes sense, but OMG was it a brain F---.

Owning her behaviors and choices are something she has to do. Not just say that she does, but actually feel them in her bones. She is too knew and likely has a lot of processing to do before she will "get it."

Lies are lies. Spoken, written down, acting in a certain way, etc. She has to do these consistently over a long period of time.

Right now, you can wait. You've got time. Effort counts too. Take it day by day and comparing 6 month intervals seems like an intelligent approach. I really do that that if you talk to a neutral 3rd party (IC) it might help you cope with some of these stresses. I think it is good for her to see a PDOC who can refer to a therapist if they don't do therapy themselves.

You both have a lot to unravel. That is healthy no matter what you decide to do. You have to detach. It is more akin to being numb, but it helps sometimes to not hurt for a little while.

Keep reading and posting. We are here if you need us.

NeverTwice posted 6/5/2020 13:16 PM

This is really great advice Dranth.

From user Butforthegrace...

"Okay, so you say that what you want now is for me to want to remain married to you. What are you going to do for me to make me want that, and why should I believe it is sincere when, for years, you've been denying me sex, even though I wanted it. Was being married to me not enough of a motivator to be sexual with me before? Why is it now?"

And those are questions that need to be answered with Radical Honesty. And you might want to read up on both Radical Honesty and Radical Accountability. Your WW needs to embrace both of these approaches if you desire to reconcile.

And it is her job. She has to be the one doing 90% of the heavy lifing if she gets the gift of a second chance.

So sorry Dranth. You did not deserve this - but you WILL survive it.

Warm Regards

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