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I think I am a strong woman. Without sounding self important...my god, I have to be.

I know I am smart. I know I am funny/quick witted. And by jove, I’m loyal to a freakin’ fault. I don’t pull punches. I tell you what I think - yet most people seem to describe me as kind. Largely, I think that is true.

But when it comes to the attractiveness/desirability factor (ofbthe opposite sex), I feel like I am second pickings. The guys always seem to go for my “bimbo” friends. (Which I don’t think are necessarily bimbos, they just play the “dumb (simple, non-threatening) girl” card better.

I’m stuck in this “identity crises”. I don’t know that I *could* play this differently even if I tried. After all this time, I’m kind of realizing that I am who I am. I don’t know that I would *want* to attract someone that doesn’t appreciate me for who I truly am. BTDT...it didn’t turn out well. But I’m also tired of feeling second rate...and I do question that maybe I’m not as strong as much as I am bitch.

I don’t know what I’m hoping through this post. Just maybe some assurance that there are guys who truly appreciate a strong woman? Or maybe some introspection on what tips a strong woman into the bitch mode? I’m not really fishing - not dating, not proactively seeking to do so...so maybe the scenes/opportunities I am finding are not really conducive to true relationship. (IOW, maybe this is just a shallow pool of hook-ups thus the basis of my interpretations.) IDK. It just so often seems that men that are attracted to a strong woman also have mommy issues (if not a downright aversion.) I’m just kind of lost with how to move forward in all of this. And while I’m certainly not afraid to be alone, it is not my desire. Just growing cynical - and I hate that aspect as much as anything.

My mother was adamant that I grow up to be a strong, independent woman. She got that in spades!

Seriously though, I am what I am, make no apologies for it, and refuse to be anything different to appease someone else. Not gonna happen.

I have found that impressions of strength vs. bitch is entirely in the eyes of the beholder. And that is just life. I'm not an actual bitch unless a situation calls for it, but I don't put up with any bullshit at all. Usually in a very polite way, unless pushed.

All that to say I get it. I've also been blessed with RBF, which doesn't endear many to me.

Now, having said that, I can tell you that my SO has said my strength is one of the things he loves about me. Not in a mommy issues way (he is strong in his own right), but in a truly appreciative way. He can't stand weak people (probably comes from the military officer career).

So I share that to say YES, there ARE men that truly appreciate that in a woman. You just haven't found him yet. Don't even think of playing the "dumb" card! Be who you are and be proud of it!

I will say that my kids tell me I've reached the "get the fuck off my lawn" grumpy stage of life, but my employees would say that I am not quite that bad...yet... I still enjoy laughing too much.

There are plenty of men who appreciate strong women. Many of my friends are strong women and they have wonderful husbands - equally strong.

You do not want the men that are attractive to women who play dumb.

I do think there are women who are strong, but who put out at "I don't need you" vibe (IMO, that is not strength. That is a wall built of fear). People are repelled by that. "I don't need you" is not attractive.

I want to echo what shakentorhecore said: strength is sometimes just emotional walls in this sense.

I’m a strong woman. Was raised by a feminist mom (and dad) who taught me to be able to take care of myself. When I told my cheating ex I was filing D, he told me he hoped he found someone “less challenging” to be with after me. Apparently expecting a partner in life who was loyal was too challenging. His loss. I took it as a compliment.

When I was dating early on, I had walls so high you’d need an Everest permit to scale them. I wasn’t feeling strong, so I put up walls to keep myself safe.

I dated a few men who hinted or outright told me I was intimidating. I didn’t NEED them. And while that’s true - I didn’t need them - it was my walls they were seeing.

I’m dating someone now who appreciates my strength and independence. He truly admired how I can take care of myself but he also has allowed me to drop my walls of protection so he can see how equally I can take care of others, and how while I don’t NEED him to take care of me, I like when he does. He’s not threatened by my independence and as a result I’m not scared to be vulnerable with him. It’s pretty amazing and honestly sometimes a little surprising. But he’s the same way - he can take care of himself and he doesn’t NEED me to do it for him. So when he allows me to, it feels like a gift.

It’s out there. Those who can’t handle your strength don’t have big enough hands to help you carry your crown.

I see nothing at all wrong with being a bitch. There are times and circumstances that happen in life that sometimes calls for a bitch response in defense of my boundaries. I also see nothing at all wrong with self-reflection and making sure you are being true to the kind of person you want to be. I believe that there are a great many more people that could benefit from honest self-reflection. You have every right to be proud of yourself for self-reflecting like you are.

With that said, would you really want to date someone who may or may not be very secure in their masculinity so that they prefer women who do not pose a threat to their masculinity? Personally, I wouldn't. I would be absolutely miserable with someone who needs or wants their masculinity catered to because that goes against the grain of everything that I have worked so hard to be in life.

Perhaps it's time to stop asking ourselves if we are being the kind of woman that a guy wants and ask ourselves what qualities that we want in a partner and then look for people with those qualities. I'll be the first person to tell you that I am not everyone's cup of tea and I'm glad I am not. I wouldn't want to be at all. To me, it's on that person to know whether or not I'm the kind of person they may enjoy spending time with. But it's also on me to know what I want in a person and to know if that person is someone that I would enjoy spending time with as well.

After 23 years of doing the pick me dance in my marriage and after 45 years of doing the pick me dance with my abusive family of origin, there are not enough eye rolls in the world to express how I feel over the thought of wasting even a single second more of my life doing the pick me dance to anyone else ever again. It's just not worth it because the prize to that particular carnival game is not something I would ever want even if it were being given away for free.

F1

I don’t know what I’m hoping through this post. Just maybe some assurance that there are guys who truly appreciate a strong woman?

Right here! Me! (p.s. per SI rules, I promise that I am not flirting. I have a GF... and boundaries).

I have no interest in someone who is unintelligent, unmotivated, etc. I fall in love with a woman's brain far quicker than her body.

Or maybe some introspection on what tips a strong woman into the bitch mode?

This is a great question. I have a work colleague who is physically diminutive and she epitomizes strong but not bitchy to me. She has a quiet confidence about her... when she says something, it is always logical and said with force, but she doesn't nag, she doesn't raise her voice, and she is fully capable of admitting when she is wrong. Ironically, do you realize how much confidence it takes to admit that you are wrong?

This friend of mine... she is 5 ft tall on a good day and maybe weighs 100 lbs soaking wet. I have seen her stare down and make a 22 year old college athlete (6 feet 9 inches, 250 lbs) wilt. He could have broken her in half, literally. I asked her to let me know when he was in her office (not that I could take him) and she said that she could handle herself just fine.

I see nothing at all wrong with being a bitch.

I totally disagree. It's never right to be a bitch, asshole, motherfucker, etc. (sorry, I'm having fun using profanities). We all do it, but it's not right.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 7:15 AM, May 29th (Wednesday)]

GF - just be true to yourself. Being authentic is a great thing. Anything less will just make you feel bad.

Will you be everyone's cup of tea? Nope - but you don't want to be either. That is ok. There are lots of folks who want a strong woman.

Those girls that do that fake-dumb thing are really short-changing themselves. Who the heck wants a person who is attracted to you because they think you are stupid? Only someone that needs to feel superior.

Keep your path - you got this where ever it may lead.

Truthsetmefree,

I'm guessing the kind of guys who go for the Bimbos are not the kind of guys who would interest you. There are so many different types of men and women, it never makes sense to settle.

The men you seek are out there. And they're looking for you.

Who the heck wants a person who is attracted to you because they think you are stupid? Only someone that needs to feel superior.

Exactly. Those girls are starting relationships with someone displaying huge red flags!! And them dumbing themselves down is also a huge red flag. Lose lose on both sides.

I recently started online dating. My profile is definitely different. None of that crap about looking for my " other half ", partner in crime, Long walks on the beach, wine tasting etc etc. It basically says you're not going to complete me as I am already a whole person. And I won't be completing you, so please be a whole person already. My photos are of me hiking, kayaking, standing on top of a mountain in hiking boots, etc. I did get a lot of the standard"Hey beautiful" messages that were likely sent to 50 other women the same day by the same man. A few messages stood out. Guess who they were from? An FBI agent/dive master/world traveler. An army colonel / physician. A helicopter pilot /law enforcement officer. (One of these men, I am currently dating).They loved the strong profile. They were looking for someone who was not going to depend on them. They want a partner not a dependent. Most whole secure men want that. Those are the men you want. You don't want a man who wants you to need him; who wants you to be inferior to him in some way. In my opinion, that leads to him believing he can control you.

Keep being your strong self. No need to be a b****. You can be strong and not be a b****. And if a man thinks a strong woman is a b****, then he is definitely not the man for you. He's one of those insecure controlling types. Hard pass on that!!

Are you out with your girlfriends when this happens? Bars and such? It might also be the environment you are in; men looking for a fling or hookup. The "bimbo" is easier where that is concerned.

Do you online date? Put up a strong profile. See what happens. See who is left standing after the initial barrage of "hi" messages.

[This message edited by WhoTheBleep at 6:49 PM, May 29th (Wednesday)]

Be true to yourself and you will find somebody who appreciates your authenticity.

My exWH threw my strength and independence in my face like they were terrible traits to have. In reality, he was weak and envious and instead of rising up to meet me, he tried to drag me down. And also, you know, screwed his trashy bimbo coworker - that’s the kind of woman he wants. Now that’s the kind of woman he’s stuck with.

And as for me, I’m divorced and seeing a strong, independent man who sees those traits in me and absolutely values them. If I hadn’t been myself, I doubt we would have connected.

I’ve seen the saying several times “be the type of person you would want to attract” and I think there’s so much truth to that.

I think everybody (especially us guys) have different ideas what a "Strong Woman" is.. versus what would possibly classify a woman into the "B*tch" category.

Many guys really do not want a woman who is equal or superior to them.. I've witnessed it many times over the years.

I personally look for the "strong woman" in women I see online. Self reliant, examples of handling various situations in life. I want a life partner, not an inherited adult kid.

Am I immune to the "damsel in distress" card some women put out? No, It's like hardwired.. but, after the initial draw.. I will recognize that is not what I want and turn away..

I agree, there's a difference between sensing strength and the "I don't need anyone" vibe.. It's essentially saying "Leave me alone".. and it may be I do not meet the physical attributes they are looking for (or signs or wealth). Cause those types, won't even want to start a conversation. I do classify those into the "b*tch" category.

Granted I do not do well with arrogant women, and to me that falls more into the "b*tch" category.. as they feel they are superior then everyone.. and my cynical side will look at all the cracks in the arrogance and pick at them... cause nobody in this world is perfect.. I know two wrongs don't make a right.. but it's entertaining at times.

I don’t know what I’m hoping through this post. Just maybe some assurance that there are guys who truly appreciate a strong woman?

I just went out with a strong smart accomplished woman. I really liked her.

But there were some areas we didn't fit and I knew that we wouldn't be more than friends for my part.

I just encourage you to be yourself but get the discouragement of not finding a connection. It hits harder on some days than others.

Many guys really do not want a woman who is equal or superior to them.. I've witnessed it many times over the years.

I believe you, LBC, but this troubles me. I get the superior part, but not wanting an equal? Why? Is it just personal preference? (I see just as many situations where the man specifically doesn't want a "dependant", so maybe men are split, here) Is it a control/abuse thing? Insecurity? KISA syndrome?

TSMF, as mentioned above, make sure you are simply being strong/yourself, and not a bitch. I briefly considered dating a few months before I was ready. I wrote up an OLD profile and put it in a note app on my phone. Months later, when I was truly ready, I went back to retrieve the profile...and had to completely rewrite it. It sounded angry, not strong. Make sure what you're putting out there is what you think you are putting out there.

Granted I do not do well with arrogant women, and to me that falls more into the "b*tch" category.. as they feel they are superior then everyone..

I think there is some truth here ^^^. There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. I used to tell my DS this all the time because he would sometimes cross that line into cocky arrogance thinking he was just being confident. I don't like arrogant assholes, and that is what Xhole was/is. I didn't want DS emulating that. I think (my personal opinion here) when women cross into that territory they become an unattractive bitch. That is different from going into bitch mode when a situation warrants, but even being in bitch mode to enforce boundaries or stand up for yourself doesn't mean you have to be nasty and mean, i.e., a raving, entitled, off-the-chains lunatic. I can easily verbally slice someone to ribbons without raising my voice or showing emotion.

TSMF, live an authentic life and you will find someone that will see and appreciate your wonderful qualities. Don't settle or pretend to be something you are not. Pretense is really not sustainable in the long run and the cracks of truth will start to appear eventually. You don't want to attract someone that appears to be attracted for all the wrong reasons.

I do think there are women who are strong, but who put out at "I don't need you" vibe (IMO, that is not strength. That is a wall built of fear). People are repelled by that. "I don't need you" is not attractive.

I do have to disagree with this^^. I DON'T need someone. That's reality. I never have. But I WANT someone to share adventures in life with. It has nothing to do with a wall of fear, and my SO was certainly not repelled by it. In fact, I made that very statement to him on our first date to make sure he understood exactly where I was coming from (along with not looking for marriage). He said (much later) that was one of the first things that drew him to me. He has also told me that I probably come off as being very intimidating to most men, except him of course. Of course, RBF only adds to that. I took SO's comment as a compliment because, as I said, I am who I am and I'm not going to change.

I agree that it can certainly be true for some, where there is indeed a fear in place. It is a defensive mechanism. Just be careful not to assume it is a "wall of fear" from everyone who exhibits it.

I do think there are women who are strong, but who put out at "I don't need you" vibe (IMO, that is not strength. That is a wall built of fear). People are repelled by that. "I don't need you" is not attractive.

I do have to disagree with this^^. I DON'T need someone. That's reality. I never have. But I WANT someone to share adventures in life with. It has nothing to do with a wall of fear, and my SO was certainly not repelled by it. In fact, I made that very statement to him on our first date to make sure he understood exactly where I was coming from (along with not looking for marriage). He said (much later) that was one of the first things that drew him to me. He has also told me that I probably come off as being very intimidating to most men, except him of course. Of course, RBF only adds to that. I took SO's comment as a compliment because, as I said, I am who I am and I'm not going to change.

I think there are different levels of "need" vs "don't need".

When I first separated, I needed someone. I wanted to be rescued. I wanted someone to replace my ex. That was very, very unhealthy and I'm glad I didn't find anyone during that period.

Later, I met someone when I was not looking or interested at all - it kind of just fell into my lap. I don't need him, he doesn't need me, and despite seeing each other exclusively for nearly a year and half, it's still a fairly casual relationship. We are both busy with work/school, so we may not see each other much in June.

Then, there's the kind of "don't need" LBC might be getting at, in which someone pushes people away because they are afraid of being hurt. That's also unhealthy.

I think in the aftermath of divorce/separation, a lot of people fall into the unhealthy ends of the "need" gradient and it takes a while to find your feet, gain confidence in your ability to manage everything on your own and be in that healthy zone that makes you a good partner.

So many good responses here...I’m trying to take them all in but, admittedly still struggling with how it assimilates. Both to the whole and as part of my own self-reflection. We cannot change what we don’t see, right? And there is some pattern of attracting the wrong kind of men in my history. I am, after all, the common denominator.

That being said, the perspective of what has provoked all of this....

Yes, it was a “bar scene”...a happy hour meeting with a couple of girlfriends in an upscale bar of a restaurant. I love the restaurant and, in particular, this happy hour. But I have noticed that it tends to attract the stereotypical “successful, traveling business man”. Being that I haven’t been on the “dating scene” in twenty years, I’m surprised and taken back by what I perceive as the “meat market” vibe to a 5 pm happy hour. My guard has not been up for that as it would have been in the meet up scene of my thirties. So there’s all of that piece. It’s unchartered waters for me...and I’m off my game for many reasons.

These are (at least imho) genuinely girl get togethers. Not out partying, not intentionally drawing attention or partying - just an after work drink and an opportunity to catch up. However, they are almost always interrupted by a business man...and often comfortably, casually, under the context of potential business connections. Sometimes it’s not so comfortably or casually. But nonetheless it’s an easy opportunity to trade business cards without much risk (or not, which is more my stance when I sense that the waters may be cloudy). My GFs seem to have no issue with this - which is another topic but also part of what may make one of us appear more open or available. I’m ok with conversations...but it almost always evolves to buying a round of drinks for the group - and my GFs seem to be happy to drink for free. I’m a little more reserved when we come to that point...and especially if the conversation has not yet evolved to a level where I feel there is either a genuine interest *in the conversation* part of it. IOW, buy me a drink because you find me interesting and appreciate the interaction...not because you are hedging some bets, hoping for a little help from the booze - or worse, because I am the friend of the friend you are really more interested in.

Which brings me to my point - in some strange kind of conflicted, perhaps even hypocritical way. (And this is the embarrassing part.). I’m not the girl they are really interested in. And it’s this strange thing...because I’m more than likely the girl that’s actually interested in *you*. Not in you as the potential relationship or hook-up....just the girl that’s interested in getting to know you as a person. I know I ask meaningful questions because I’m truly interested in life experiences...what you’ve done, what you’ve learned, how life has shaped you. I absolutely come alive when someone speaks authentically, deeply...like a passion that can be contagious. And it often carries the conversation of the whole. I have their interest...because, after all, who doesn’t like to talk about themselves? I get the conversation. But at the end of it, I am the proxy to the experience or seemingly whatever they are looking for. If I had to caption it all it would probably be somewhere along the lines of - Look, I’m just trying to fuck your friend...but you keep asking me all these questions that are distracting me from my mission. So, I become aware of this..always a little too late...and I’m disappointed that the whole interaction got reduced to something so primitive.

Then the weird part - omg, brave breaths here - then I go home and wonder why I’m not fuckable. I mean, I am. I know that I am. At least in terms of physical attractiveness. And I absolutely love good sex. But we’re middle age now...so you’ve got to bring something more than just your image of prowess and your ideas of that long gone boyish physique. The thing is, my GFs aren’t going home with these guys either. It’s as dead an end for them there as it is to spend time trying to hold a conversation with me. But there is something there that makes them *want* to at least try....whereas there is something there that seems to always leave me as the one that got the drink because I was one of the group.

I don’t know if any of that makes any sense. I’m trying to figure out my own issue with why I am wondering why a guy is not attracted to me when he already shows indications way below what I would find stimulating much less tantalizing. I guess it’s just this sense of being a square peg in a round whole...which is probably where my work really lies. If I was more like my GFs, I’d just be working the free drink angle. <shrug>

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 6:30 PM, May 29th (Wednesday)]

TSMF, maybe you ARE fuckable, but once you start asking all of your questions (aka revealing your intelligence and highly evolved mind),the man realizes his "prowess and boyish physique" are nowhere near enough to get you to drop your pants. So he loses interest and drifts toward the giggly flirty friend.

Just a thought.

You are too much work for his one track mind.

By the way, your last post was brilliant. You describe the situation perfectly. I felt like I was observing the entire thing.

Just a hunch, the "traveling businessman" type is looking for a hookup. The disinterest in you is a compliment. You are absolutely fuckable. They are just lazy. (And probably married in many cases.) So they want the quickie/nsa/minimal effort ONS or fling.

BTW, the drinks are written off as a business expense on a business card. Completely unimpressive. Cheap bastards.

[This message edited by WhoTheBleep at 7:11 PM, May 29th (Wednesday)]

According to a study by Advance Sciences a woman’s prospects dim not only as they age, but as they achieve the highest level of education.

A more educated man is almost always more desirable, on average: Men with postgraduate degrees outperform men with bachelor’s degrees; men with bachelor’s degrees beat high-school graduates.

“But for women, an undergraduate degree is most desirable,” the study says. “Postgraduate education is associated with decreased desirability among women.”

In another study, men are actively turned-off by cleverness, and the only exception to this is if the woman is highly attractive, a study by the Warsaw School of Economics found.

Yep - some men do prefer the bimbo.

Truth, you are casting pearls before swine. By you being so open and sincere in a setting such as a happy hour, these guys realize you aren't an air head. They may not want to get that revealing, either, if they are married. As others have said, they are there talking to women on a pretense of "business contacts" for one reason, only! While 5 pm may seem early in the evening to you, because you remember your college scene or whatever, to them, it's never too early to line up the lady for that ONS they hope happens, especially since they have to be sharp the next day! Sounds like they are very practiced at that game...

When I was newly divorced and started a small business of my own, I too thought it would be useful to be seen at the upscale happy hour place in my small city. I had my business cards at the ready. Do you know how much business I ever got from all my handing cards out to potential customers or associates? Not ONE, ever! It was ALL a pretense for the true activities we were engaged in...drinking and socializing/flirting! But I sure spent a lot of my scarce money to learn that lesson!

[This message edited by Superesse at 10:20 PM, May 29th (Wednesday)]

I didn’t read any of the responses but totally get where you are coming from. There is a certain way some women act...not as smart as they are...damsels in distress..I could go on...that some men absolutely do respond to. It can be so frustrating and annoying. I can flirt. I can look cute, but I will not dumb myself down. Don’t do it. It won’t work because they will figure out just how strong and smart you are later anyway. If they can’t handle a strong woman they are a waste of your time.

The alpha female needs an alpha male. I’m joking here but truly you will need a strong man. A strong man will not be threatened by you or be in competition with you. He will appreciate you.

I think I can go into B mode when provoked or when quite frankly I’m feeling threatened or just not being a loving person. If I keep my heart right, then I know I’m being strong and not being a B. It is all about my heart and not my mind with that. My mind can go off. I think it is about using my strength for good.

Be who you are, ask God how he sees you if you ascribe to that

[This message edited by Jesusismyanchor at 10:40 PM, May 29th (Wednesday)]