SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For real I am asking. . .for a friend.

That's some funny shit...

It’s called “choreplay” fellas and it leads to foreplay and foreplay leads to, well, I hope you can take it from here.

Not in this universe. Maybe "chorebation" where I broke my back keeping the trains running on time and that led to WS having foreplay with AP because home life was "too stressful". The idea that you can nice your way to unbreaking your WS goes out the window once someone has affair googles on. Once someone is in an affair, you are comparing your reality to someone else's fantasy.

I think there is definitely something to the "reliability" thing, but not necessarily "Plan-B". AP was certainly what I would call "unreliable". Bankrupt, "gainfully employed" but clearly itinerant getting shuffled around the county instead of fired to make him another's problem, no commitments, lapdog-like availability for any affair nuggets and willing to heap praise on my WS at her worst. I never once felt inadequate because of the AP. Disgusted by how far my WS let herself sink? Certainly. AP and I had one conversation, and the lunatic seemed to think we were peers. I laughed. Once the affair came to light, AP got dropped so hard and fast it almost made me further question my wife's judgement. You destroyed what we built for THIS? The affair goggle version of this was she liked his "ambition". A simple Internet search would have revealed a smoldering heap of personal disaster, but why do even the most cursory checks about what Romeo says?

I do not follow the "nice guys finish last" mantra at all. I was treated terribly by my partner, but otherwise I have a fantastic life. Once AP removed himself from trying to blow up my family in increasingly deranged and desperate ways, I actually felt sorry for him. It must be tough getting up there in age, having your employer try to park you somewhere you don't mess up for a year or two at a time before you screw up again, trying to trap vulnerable women at each new place into a relationship, with no kids/spouse/wealth/hobbies/interests and therefore the complete ability to be what anyone else needs. I think the nutcase really thought he was going to take over my life, and then he got a cruel taste of what getting called up to the majors is actually like.

I am going to remain reliable. Certainly not for my WS. She can either choose to appreciate it and grow up, an opportunity she only gets another chance at because she is the mother of our children, or I will focus on myself and my kids while eventually looking for someone else who does. If you made a nice life for yourself as Mr. Reliable, do not destroy it. Someone is going to appreciate it.

I'm with hikingout.

Being reliable, contributing to the relationship and household and being a generally considerate human being are not turn-ons. They are just acting like minimally decent human being. It's like not having spelling errors in your resume. They are minimal requirements for me to consider whether I find you attractive. If you act like an ass, don't think you have to parent, think someone else should clean up after you (with the caveat that I don't have a problem with people who hire some chores out), then it's an instant turn OFF, but being a decent person isn't an instant turn on.

So, I get guys who don't want a woman who is attracted to their reliability. That's like saying, well I'm with you because you're not a complete asshole. I want someone who is a minimally decent person AND has other characteristics I find attractive.

DevastatedDee: One of the "reasons" my ex gave for why he cheated is that I never praised him. I was shocked because I always thanked him when he prepared dinner or for looking after the kids (he was a SAHD), but he told me that mere thanks made him feel like an employee (WTH!). I guess I was supposed to adore him for just doing normal, responsible adult things.

Except that, speaking personally, "choreplay" was wildly ineffective as a way to stimulate desire. And I've read that's often the case; "If I had more time and didn't have to do the dishes, we'd have more sex" is a red herring. Now, of course, if you're really doing crap at home and your spouse really is picking up all the slack, maybe it's legit. But most of the time it's just a misdirection from the real issue.

Here's the best argument against choreplay. How many times did the AP take out the trash? Wash your clothes? Paint the house? Mow the lawn? And, in your typical A, there's plenty of sex, often a shocking amount of sex. If choreplay was an effective way to get more sex, you'd see a lot of AP's out there with a box of Tide and a tool belt as their "pickup new AP" go to props.

This has been my experience too. My W was always too tired and said it was because of all she was doing. So, I pitched in and helped more. Guess who was out cold by the time I got to bed most nights? Yeah, I call bullshit on the whole choreplay leads to foreplay thing.

I’ve come to accept from her actions that my wife doesn’t physically desire me. Mostly duty sex these past however many years. It sucks, but I can’t control how she feels. I do bring home a nice paycheck though so good for her.

The funny thing is, I could totally handle her telling me she was no longer attracted to me (words would match actions). Would it hurt? Sure, but it would be kind of a relief from an honesty perspective. Besides, enough other women have expressed an interest in me that I know I wouldn’t be alone. They may not be externally as pretty as my W, but I’ve learned that matters far less than it did to me 20ish years ago.

Why have I put up with this? Inertia and kids. The youngest is 16 and I’m glad I’ve been around for them. If I had it all to do over again I would have done it differently (numbed with booze for too long), but it is what it is. The light at the end of the tunnel is visible.

DevestatedDee,

You ask a question I’ll never be able to answer! It boggles the mind, I’ll admit I’m not perfect or even close to it but she lived the princess life; materialistically and emotionally. I applaud you as we have single parent friends as well, and it takes STRENGTH to do what y’all do. Your far better people than I. As when the WW travels on business and I have the kids, I’m handing them off as soon as she returns.

SisterMilkShake,

I do agree that the affair has little to do with us (or nothing per se) and what we did or didn’t do, did or didn’t say. Her living the princess life demonstrates that. She trashed that life for a few hours of thrills. For the record, we are common folk. 😊 Just blessed enough to live very comfortably.

I slightly agree, that if we let our thoughts of being Plan B drive us, it won’t work. I’ve reconciled the fact I WAS B, but not any more. She’s grateful she got a gift of 2nd chance. I have no doubt now I’m plan A now.

Cocoplus,

Can you better help me understand the rationale of how we aren’t Plan B? I ask because when I think some of my WWs actions, its clear the AP was chosen over me. For example; we both are blessed to work from home. She’s part time, so on her day off, I had the ability/flexibility, I’d say “hey lets go do lunch”. During the affair, she would waltz out the door on certain Fridays to go “run errands” and never once said “lets do lunch or want to run errands”, instead she went a mile away, parked climbed in his car, drove by our house and then got busy while I sat 300 feet away working. By her preferring to go get degraded and used versus a simple “want to grab lunch”, I was plan B. Or how about her letting him make a disparaging comment about our relationship and she agreed? Chosing me, would have shut that shit down. Instead, she chose him to inflate his ego versus protect her marriage and her spouse. How are these not perfect examples of plan b hood?

It's not choreplay - it's there is always so much to do that it's overwhelming when someone wants you to do 2 - 3 full time jobs well. I think the job being one, the household running the second, and the child-raising third. When women are saying you might get more sex if you help with those things it's because we are fucking exhausted. Not to make it a tit-for-tat situation. You do x and I will do y. No, no, no. You all have this so very wrong.

Well, I'd say this is all going to depend on the personal situation. My wife and I work very hard (both of us). I'm not sure you could say who puts in more hours at the office or at home. And yes, we often wiped out by the end of the day. I get that, and I don't disagree. And it seemed entirely reasonable when, pre-A, at the end of a long day she'd say "I'm just too tired". I'm tired too! I get it, and I'm sad that sex isn't a higher priority for you (my W) but, OK, I can accept that too.

Well then, of course, the A happens. Same amount of chores. Same amount of pressure at work (actually more). More pressure at home (personal situations for both of us), one of which was taking up a TON of our free time. But you know what? Somehow, during that time when we both had, perhaps the LEAST free time in our adult lives, she still managed to conduct a full blown relationship/A. Managed to carve out hours to sleep with the AP. Sent about 9000 messages. Talked on the phone for hours. AND kept sleeping with me, and kept doing all the chores, and kept the household running, and dealt with our personal/time consuming situations. It's like time to f**k just fell out of the sky!

No. Desire to f**k led her to make time to do it. Or, more correctly, desire for the A made her carve out the time to do it (the first sounds much better though). And that's the point when you're dealing with a WS who "can't find time" to do something. Bulls**t! You found time to live a secret life, and you found time in that secret life to give your AP exactly the things that you claimed "no time" for me.

And, if we're talking about sex here, well, come on. Who doesn't have time for that? You can't find 20 minutes in your day (not at you HIO, in general)? That's ridiculous and insulting. What's far more likely to be true is "I don't feel like it", which, OK, a valid answer, but much different than "If you'd only mow the lawn for me, I'd have enough time for sex".

Speaking for me personally, I know it doesn't work to stimulate sexual desire in my W. Yes, I do it, because, as you rightly point out, it's just what your supposed to do in a M, or just supposed to do as an adult. No disagreement there, but where I strongly disagree is the undertone of "Well, if your H would step up and do his part, he'd get more sex". No, he'd be a decent human being and be doing his part (assuming he's not already doing it). But if A's show us anything, it's that being a "decent human being" isn't even on the radar for a lot of people when considering if they'd like to or will have sex with someone else. That's why I call this a red herring, particularly when a WS says it. The lack of desire, or the "lack of time" for sex with your BS when you found plenty of time to conduct an A? Nope, doesn't pass the sniff test. Too stressed? Nope, smells even worse, A's are nothing if not stressful, and you found plenty of time there. Just don't want to WITH YOU. That's a lot more in line with reality. How many stories do we have to read about decent husbands/wives with "low drive" partners who suddenly become porn stars, including my own, to realize that "not enough time" or "didn't contribute enough to the chores" is a total bulls**t excuse for lack of sex.

For me, as a sahm, the choreplay was about being with me, being kind - the cup of coffee - just because he wanted to be kind, no transaction. “Oh I love that chicken dish, thank you for making it - I’m tired of hotel food. I’ll take the trash out so the wrapping is outside before it turns.” Seriously, that would have been awesome. I was just reliable. Didn’t even to check in with me.

I understand there are men out there who did this for their wives and got cheated on. I was saying that it’s what I missed for years. He’d be gone 15 hrs a day, or 10 days at a time, and would not call me. Seriously. I never complained because how lucky was I to be home with my kids? And when he’d show up, he’d grope and expect sex. I was exhausted and not turned on. Which translated into frigid and ungrateful. I have no evidence or sense at all that he was cheating during those years. He was an excited overworking dot com entrepreneur. His behaviour during affair was unlike anything I’d ever seen in him. And I never got a cup of coffee. I remember looking at a phone bill when I was obsessively searching and seeing that July 2013 he never called me once. I burst into tears.

If anyone had resentment and no sex, it was me. I was so lonely for years. But I did not cheat. Wh hit one rough patch and started fucking this mousy wet hole so fast it was like he was shot out of a cannon.

For me the choreplay isn’t about taking things off my list to free me up (but my kids are older) but just standing with me, kindly. Unconditional vs conditional. It’s what a bff would do.

For real I am asking. . .for a friend.

That's some funny shit...

Thank you. Tip your waiters and waitresses. I will be here all week.

By "choreplay" I do not mean that if I vacuum I am entitled to a token redeemable for a blowjob at the time and place of my choice.

What I mean is this: let's say there's five hours of household chores to be done tonight. My wife and I are generally in bed by 11:00. If we get home at 6, and I leave her to do five hours of chores while I surf the internet and watch baseball, she's doing chores until 11:00. Not a scenario that is likely to lead to intimacy of any kind on that night.

On the other hand, if I pitch in and do half the chores, then at 8:30 the chores are done. She feels valued as a partner because no task was beneath me and I didn't expect anything of her I wasn't prepared to do, too. We can sit down and talk, have some drinks on our screen porch, reflect on the day and connect for a while.

If the mood strikes us both, we can have sex and be asleep by 11:00.

That's what I meant by "choreplay."

[This message edited by DomesticTourist at 3:04 PM, May 3rd (Friday)]

RIO, you're missing the fantasy part. It was an escape from real life. Why she didn't do that with you, idk. There was(is) something wrong with her.

N&D, proximity?

Brennan, because it wasn't about you. She wasn't choosing hom over you. She was choosing herself over everyone else. He just happened to be who she did it with.

Have you ever heard the line, "It could've been anyone,"? I used to get so pissed when people on here would tell me that. No, it couldn't because my H wasn't looking to cheat. The OW tricked him. He wouldn't have cheated if it weren't for her. That's what I believed.

Except it wasn't true, at least not entirely. The only thing special about her was that she was a master at her craft, a serial cheater who knew just who would fall for her shit. So, while maybe it couldn't have been anyone, it could have been anyone with her mastery of manipulation. If not her, then the next one who fit the bill. That certainly does not make her better than me. It wasn't about her. It was about how my H felt. I don't know if i explaining this very well.

That's the same concept. This person presented himself at the right time for your CW. If it hadn't been him, it would've been someone else.

To some extent, cocoplus5nuts, is correct. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. If it weren't WH's OW, it would have been someone else.

Why? Because our spouses put out the 'Open for business' sign. They not only made themselves appear available, but they also fostered it or initiated it. They may not have said they were out for an affair in the way a fisherman casts a line and says he's not expecting to catch anything.

They could have said no if they were approached. They can say they didn't expect a little flirt or comment to go further, but in the back of their minds they knew it could and that was exciting. And they played clueless so they could suddenly be in an affair and claim "It just happened over a period of X!"

Buuuuut, RidingItOut, I agree with you that the AP was chosen for things and times over us. And when you're married and cheat, to say it isn't about your partner is truly telling. We were worse than options. We simply didn't matter. If they fight us over the AP? Yeah, they're choosing the AP - not just themselves.

Coco same here about the mow. In wh ic, we now see how often he’s a mark. Not to take agency from him, it’s all his choice, but master manipulators can spot a mark, and with men and women in his personal and work life, he is often manipulated. Countless times, and another situation this week with a stealing and lying employee he gave too wide a berth to. Came off as a sweet but dim nice guy, was kind of a con man. Wtf. Whole new mess to deal with.

His mother is a master manipulator. Mow was hired by his mom, and mow is a mini me of his mom. oedipus much? He gets lured in because that’s how he was shown love.

So it could have been anyone - yes - but he willingly went further and further thru boundaries, making shitty decision after shitty decision because the flattery was easier to take than the reality of his life. Once his mom was in our marriage, it was open season. His comfort with being manipulated by her led him right to mow. So stupid.

but where I strongly disagree is the undertone of "Well, if your H would step up and do his part, he'd get more sex".

You did not read my post carefully. I said that women say this because we ARE exhausted, but that isn't what gets physical intimacy from a woman, I said it was emotional intimacy. Sometimes it's also we just want sex at that time as well. But, as one poster clearly stated, don't ignore me all day, have me do more than my fair share and then expect sex. It doesn't really work that way. And, I wasn't saying it was a one size fits all men here statement either.

All I was pointing out with the chore stuff is, OF COURSE she is complaining about being tired, especially to many men here who were making it sound like they were doing their wife a favor by helping with household chores. No, it's true she is going to be exhausted if she has to do all that shit on her own but it's not a tit-for-tat...it's modern age. You need to do the chores because it's your job, and you need to treat her like your sweetheart if you want her to treat you like hers. They are two separate things.

It really was not in disagreement with what you just said. In fact, there are many women on here that gave their husbands lots of sex and they cheated anyway, just like there are a lot of men on here that treated their wife like their sweetheart and they cheated anyway.

Wait, Vaccuming = blowjobs?

Very funny. Why don’t you try it and see!

Wait, Vaccuming = blowjobs?

If there really were an insidious patriarchy, then yes.

But there isn't an insidious patriarchy, only an "adolescent bro culture," so, no.

I'm dieing.

Domestictourist - turnthepage is my husband. He was getting cute. But I will encourage him to still try it. Wear an apron, babe.

Except that, speaking personally, "choreplay" was wildly ineffective as a way to stimulate desire. And I've read that's often the case; "If I had more time and didn't have to do the dishes, we'd have more sex" is a red herring. Now, of course, if you're really doing crap at home and your spouse really is picking up all the slack, maybe it's legit. But most of the time it's just a misdirection from the real issue.

Here's the best argument against choreplay. How many times did the AP take out the trash? Wash your clothes? Paint the house? Mow the lawn? And, in your typical A, there's plenty of sex, often a shocking amount of sex. If choreplay was an effective way to get more sex, you'd see a lot of AP's out there with a box of Tide and a tool belt as their "pickup new AP" go to props.

I think the problem here might be that the people talking about "Choreplay" are also Betrayed. I think it's important to remember that WS are broken inside and that until they fix themselves their actions don't reflect on the betrayed at all.

I think since most affairs are discovered and not disclosed, the presumption is that "choice" is involuntary like Layla and Nevermind described back on page 1. It's hard to shake the notion that but for all the practical reasons and tangled webs life weaves, plan A would be the AP.

We see the reverse all the time here. How many BSs say they would be done if it wasn't for the kids, the finances, the house with the white picket fence identity we have come to embrace, etc? WS is Plan B in those situations. Plan A is divorce but not executed for the above mentioned reasons.

The I do not think it is a coincidence that disclosure of affairs result in a much successful R rate as it refutes the presumption of Plan B.