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My question to WS is what did you get out of the affair?

I got to feel as though I was getting back together with "the one that got away"---the man who, at the time, I felt was the love of my life. I felt like I was getting a do-over, a chance to be together again. He broke my heart three years prior to the affair. I let him back into my life because, at the time, I would have done anything to get him back.

What was the goal?

To develop enough courage to end the M and re-start a legitimate relationship with my ex (he was single and available). I did not end up doing this, even though my H divorced me after D-day.

PB

TBH, I didn’t go into the A with any defined goal in mind. But when the opportunity presented itself, I took it.

There are a lot of things that I got out of the A, both good and bad.

The bad; more pain that I can ever recall experiencing for so long. I threw away so much for nothing. I betrayed my family, my vows and myself. I have to live with the label cheater for the rest of my days. While it doesn’t define me, it’s an indelible part of my history that I cannot change.

The good: This experience has forced me to take a very long look at the person I was. How I treated myself and everyone around me. The facade that I presented to the world and myself was cracked with a lot of rot beneath. I decided that I did not that person and wasn’t someone I wanted to be. Change has been slow and painful, but it is happening and that gives me hope.

For those of you with a d-day 2 (where either the A stopped after d-day 1 and the got rekindled later or where it never stopped at all- not just TT about the initial A) who are working towards R or want to I have a question:

What changed for you from d-day 1 to d-day 2 that made you actually want the A to end and to attempt to R?

This is such a difficult issue for me to get beyond. The A was an EA/PA for 4 months at d-day 1, stopped for a few weeks, and then started again and went underground for another year (but no PA after that - the PA was replaced with EA and phone/facetime sex as apparently that was "not as bad" and less likely to get caught) until d-day2 where I VARed him and told the OBS and said I was done.

Everything has changed since then and he is in IC, working on his issues, is willing to talk about things, doing the "work" on himself etc yet I still struggle with "how could you do false R for a year and now that I've caught you again, you've decided you want real R - what changed?!?!!"

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 3:26 PM, March 10th (Sunday)]

Thisissolonely- The answer to this is very embarrassing but I hope it helps. DDay1 was in March when it was a very early EA (a few weeks) and BH found an electronic note from me to AP saying that I needed to stop contact and figure out what I was getting from AP that I should be getting from BH.

BH was very scared about this even though I tried to point out that I was *ending* things with AP. (He was right to be scared).

I went back to contacting AP within a week. It was turning toward a full PA when BH found very explicit sexual texts, in July. He called AP and told him to back off. After that, I still would have been in touch with AP, but AP didn't want to continue. So that's your answer - it ended because AP was no longer interested.

It wasn't until January of this year that I found SI and started coming out of the fog. Until then, I would have continued with AP if he had been willing, probably in whatever way he wanted, EA or PA. On the one hand, there was a part of me that wanted to stop from early in the A, but another part that compulsively went back for more. Clearing the fog has helped immensely and now I want nothing to do with AP.

Thanks Pippin - your response, honestly, is (in one way or another) exactly what I'm afraid of. Dday2 was almost 6 months ago. My WH's AP wants him back - or at least last said so about 2 months ago. She wants him back even though she is married to one of his (now former) friends. She wants him back even though all three of them work together and any kind of "fantasy land" ending for her and my WH would undoubtedly result in an absolute shit show for them career-wise as very likely all of them would be suspended and/or fired. She wants him even though he has told her no and to leave him alone numerous times. She wants him...

All this scares me, as you might imagine, because I KNOW it is 100% up to my WH to make it stay over. One word from him and it's back on - period. He knows it. I know it. She knows it. The only person who probably doesn't know it (or at least doesn't want to know it) is her H the OBS. He seems to want to do the whole head buried in the sand plan, but there have been whispers at his job that they may be separating, so, then she will be single and I'm guessing will keep trying.

The fact that your reasons for dday 2 being the end of it were not your BH or your M at all is frightening as hell. That being said I appreciate your answer and brutal honesty - seriously.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 1:53 AM, March 11th (Monday)]

ThisIsSoLonely, I’m still very early in figuring things out, but for what it’s worth - a set of unambiguous real consequences might help - a postnup with NC and immediately giving all assets to you if he breaks it, a regular reminder that you are watching and deciding what to do based on his actions - not to force him to comply against his will, but to make the reality clear so that he can choose what to do. For me that might have helped detach from AP quicker than I did. I was very far from understanding reality.

Another thing that would have helped - I was left imagining that AP was longing to see me but too scared. If I had understood earlier that AP despised me, was using me, was despicable himself, thought I was a pathetic slut - that would probably have made the fog go away. I was continuing to hang on to the ego kibbles, in my mind, and a fantasy “relationship” free from criticism. NC is best, of course, but if he is in contact with her from work, maybe he can somehow make it clear that the ego kibble fantasy thing is over, and indicate what he really thinks of her. That assumes he’s got his thinking in order. For me thst took a long time, and it’s still a struggle sometimes.

I’m glad he’s in IC and that’s going well. Getting better is, for me, really hard. Thinking about BH, how much he wants me to get better, how much he deserves the best I can give him .. that keeps me focused. And not wanting to be an erratic mess anymore. I hope he’s able to become closer to the husband you deserve.

Thanks Pippin. He claims there is no longing for her on his part. She kind of went off the deep end a few months after dday2 to the point where she sent me some pretty crappy messages basically blaming me for "interfering" and a bunch of other crazy-town comments that my WH has recently admitted made him very angry to the point that he wanted to contact her to tell her off, but didn't want to break NC to do so. She attempted to contact him at work in "private" after he rebuffed her 7+ burner phone number calls/messages and he told her "no" and walked away. When she followed he told her "no - not now and not ever." (I know this happened as of course she sent a few more messages from other non-blocked new burner numbers after that begging to talk and finally saying she was giving up.)

So, I don't know if the whole thing is over now because she's bat-shit crazy and clearly not interested in taking responsibility for any part of all of this or if he was done anyway. I know he doesn't like himself very much these days but other than that what REALLY goes on inside of his head is a mystery...or at least I think it is. The problem for me, and for your BS I'm sure, is that we don't know what to trust. We don't know what is different now that would give cause to stay.

I told my WH a few days ago that it's the lies that are the worst. If you don't want to stay, don't. If you are still fantasizing about your AP, then don't stop on my account, but let me know so I can make decisions about my own life. If you are unhappy with me, with work, with your kid, with whatever, say so. If you don't think you're in love with me anymore, than we can work on that or go our separate ways...but TELL ME THE TRUTH. That's all I ask - that I have as much say as you.

And I struggle with this too - I waffle back and forth about what to do at least two or three times a week, and it's this issue that you responded to that really gets to me:

What is different now that at d-day1 that would make me believe that you are not going to continue to lie to me?

I will admit that your answer, if my WH gave it to me, would be VERY hard to swallow and go forward. I'm not saying that I woudln't for sure, and I'm definitely not suggesting that if your BS asks that you lie about it, but it would be very tough for me to handle.

My question to WS is what did you get out of the affair?

Ego kibbles. Undivided attention. Got to do whatever I wanted without anyone holding me accountable. Got to act like a young 20something again without any responsibilities. Basically anything unhealthy and unrealistic.

What was the goal?

To reap the benefits of having a wife and family without the work. While also having fun like I did in my twenties. To feel like I was "the man" because there were these woman flirting with me and wanting me.

This is so lonely -

I want to point something out to you that might help. I don't want to give you a false sense of hope for you, but my IC always told me that "holding the boundary" is powerful. The one who holds it gets clarity. The one who is not holding it will stay in ambiguity for as long as possible.

I would tell you that I agree with Pippin - limerence typically will dissipate when the OW accepts there is no chance. Until then she will read into every small item as an ego kibble/encouragement. Often the one who does not want it to end is dealing with abandonment issues that have nothing to do with your husband. While sometimes the A does go underground, if it hasn't and he's been holding the boundary and can tell you that his feelings were not based on anything real, I think he's moved in the right direction.

The AP in my situation dumped me as well. And, for some period of time I thought "yeah, he'll be back" He had painted a picture of unhappiness with her that I bought hook, line, and sinker. Often a WS doesn't have remorse early on, or even guilt, and no the marriage is no more a deterrent for us than it was when we cheated to begin with. The tide started to change after I decided to confess. I decided that I needed to know if my marriage could work and I knew the only way it could was if I got super honest. I was committed to NC then despite my fogginess.

I think it's a good sign if he has held the boundary for six months and has been consistent with what he's told you. I would be hypervigilant the same as you, I am sure...but likely he is at a point he's asking himself what the hell was he thinking. Does he seem remorseful in other ways? That's hard to fake I think without some sociopathic tendencies.

I will also point out that it seems that 9 times out of 10 the person who is the one who hangs on is the woman. I don't know why that is, but you have that in your favor as well. Go to any extra marital support group, they are almost always all women. Like hundreds to one.

Thanks for your comment Hikingout.

I think it's a good sign if he has held the boundary for six months and has been consistent with what he's told you. I would be hypervigilant the same as you, I am sure...but likely he is at a point he's asking himself what the hell was he thinking. Does he seem remorseful in other ways?

The weird thing for me is that I wasn't feeling hyperviligant until about a month ago. I started to get this "weird feeling" that things weren't right...but nothing in his behavior has changed. We had a couple of "bad days" for us (that pales in comparison to the bad days I've heard people having - if we have a raised voice conversation it lasts for about 5 minutes and we bring it back down)but I'm wondering if it has something to do with these issues:

1) The AP's messages to my WH clearly backed up what he was telling me. I know it sounds crazy but it was easier to believe him when she was contacting him as her messages were telling him that she "needed to talk to him" and that she "had gone for 3 months and done what he asked (basically) but that she still loved him..." Her messages to him continued to request contact and asked for him to "quit ignoring her" and that she "wanted things to return to 'normal'" (whatever normal is). But all that stopped in January and by mid February this feeling returned. Yes, it could be because I have nothing to verify his "story" with now, or it could be that he gave in so she has no need to contact like that again.

2) I was feeling pretty good about things until mid-February. For me the NC made it to where I felt like we were able to look at our relationship honestly and see where we were. That was really all I needed to try to move things forward and/or make a decision about what I wanted to do. I was feeling a lot "better" and had no anxiety about whether or not they were in contact, and I think that was making me happier in and of itself, and I've considered the fact that maybe I felt I was letting my guard down just a tiny bit and that scares the hell out of me? I just don't know.

3) He still struggles mightily with talking about the A and A-related issues. And I don't mean that when I bring them up he isn't willing to talk - but he never brings it up himself. We have 2 days a week set aside to talk about these things, so that we can focus on other activities and not get bogged down with this every day (I suggested this for him and for me - I needed a break but didn't want to allow for rug sweeping). The only thing he will ask me how I'm doing and expects that 1/2 the time I will mention something about the A and its aftermath, but other than that, he does not bring it up unless its something tangentially related to his IC sessions. He also doesn't do much of the talking when we talk - I'd say it's about 80% me and 20% him, and the 20% is when I ask him something directly.

He definitely feels guilty and is not happy with himself about how all of this happened, and when he does answer questions he always says he wants to make things better for me. He does thoughtful things (I think I mentioned that on another post you responded to) and I can tell he is trying...but he was such a fantastic compartmentalizer that it's just really hard to believe any of it for me.

False R is SO damaging it's unbelievable. Had he done this after d-day1 or anytime in the near future of that happening I really believe things would be different. Instead, now, coupled with the A itself is the knowledge that he is capable of completely misleading me on purpose. It's hard to let that go for very long.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 10:50 AM, March 12th (Tuesday)]

ThisIsSoLonely,

I have some thoughts that may help. Like Hikingout, I see some positive signs from your WH that give me hope that he might really want to fix himself.

Setting the boundary of NC and holding that boundary is a good step in the right direction.

But what I find more telling is that when the OW sent you the crazy messages, blaming you for interfering, adding crappy comments, he got angry and wanted to do something about it. Some of the anger could have been from knowing that he brought this crazy bitch into your life, but I also think that he did what a "normal" husband would do, he went into protective mode out of love for his wife. He is doing everything right with NC and he only considered breaking it when the OW sent her crazy your way. But he did the right thing, stayed NC and told you what he was thinking and why.

Here is another thing that would give me hope for change in your WH. You wrote in a thread about how he opened up and spoke about his FOO with you. I see this as a huge step forward on the path of fixing himself.

One of the hardest things that I did after D-day, besides facing my FOO, was to share parts of it with my BH. I was afraid of what he would think of me. (Sounds crazy doesn't it, in the grand scheme of things?) But I was so afraid that he would think that I wasn't worth the effort, that I somehow deserved it, that I was too broken, you get the idea. I was also afraid that he would think that I was lying about my FOO, using it as an excuse or even worse, just not care.

Opening up to to my BH was the most vulnerable that I had ever been with another person, in my whole life. I imagine that it would be even harder for a man. So, maybe it's just lip service, telling you what he thinks you want to hear or he is finally working on himself to become the husband that you deserve. But only you can say if it is worth it to find out.

As far as the OW goes, maybe she is out being bat shit crazy with her next victim. (No, I do not consider your WH her victim, just a figure of speech.) Maybe she saw the light and really did give up, who knows why she has stopped trying to contact your WH. I can understand why you feel the way you do and wanting to know why.

But this is what we do know, she lives LaLaland. Absolutely nothing between her and your WH was based in reality. Your WH has seen her for who she truly is and the more head space you give her, the more power you are giving her.

Maybe I am reading more into it than what is there or I am in a Pollyanna mood today, I don't know. I do hope more than anything that I am right about your WH, not only for your sake but for his too.

Thank you for taking the time to respond Followtheriver. I do think that he wants to fix himself. He also did this huge confession to his best best friend (they have been friends since he was about 5), who had no idea about any of this until d-day 2. His friend who is very religious and was a BS in his first marriage - to say that he was disappointed with my WH is an understatement. Honestly, I took him talking to his friend and breaking down in tears about it, that he meant business this time. He also straight up told me that he was embarrassed by her texts to me precisely because he had already hurt me so much that he could not believe there was more for me to bear that I did not deserve.

I know it's a PROCESS...and I'm impatient but I sometimes get very caught up in my own process and forget that he has his own. He also said something to me a few months ago that really made me realize how on a different page we are. He said: You have had over a year to process this (the cheating - not the double betrayal of false R) and how you think about me, about you, about us, but I have only had a few months, so I'm behind you in a lot of ways.

I am hopeful for him - I think this issue has caused (and is causing - his work life is not what it used to be due to the boundaries he has in place) a lot of emotional turmoil for him, and I hope for his sake that he can get himself sorted out. He has always had his faults, but I think he will be a lot happier with himself and his life if he keeps working on things instead of burying them.

I told him that he has to learn to forgive (but not excuse) himself before we will really be able to move forward if we are going to, instead of being locked in his own shame...but it all crazy in its own way. For example, you said:

One of the hardest things that I did after D-day, besides facing my FOO, was to share parts of it with my BH. I was afraid of what he would think of me. (Sounds crazy doesn't it, in the grand scheme of things?)

And yeah, it is hard for me to imagine anyone thinking that. If I'm still here, even considering anything after all that's happened, why would sharing yourself seem so daunting??? Sigh...so complicated!

I guess I am just going to have to figure out for myself how to deal with the doubt and worry and just try to enjoy life for what it is and accept that usually the best things take the longest time.

I'm a member of hikingout's 10%, a WW who ended the A despite the OM hanging on for months trying to rekindle it. I held the line on the PA and insisted that we were over, but I didn't go NC for months, and I allowed the OM to make pining hints and romantic gestures. As contemptible as it was for your WH to continue an EA & cybersex with the justification that it was less bad than a full PA, I actually do find it encouraging that she was never able to get him to fully return to the level of contact they had before D-Day 1. I can promise you that she thought they'd get back there eventually and was using every trick in the book to accomplish it. If she couldn't manage it in a year of trying, then he was one foot out the door away from her even before you caught him at D-Day 2. This in no way excuses or minimizes his behavior, but it does seem relevant to evaluating her potential power over him in the future. Of course, it's entirely natural for you to have ongoing doubts about someone who would cheat on you twice, but it seems to me that the reason he's less likely to be lying to you after D-Day 2 is that he has finally decided to stop lying to himself. As a wayward who belatedly went NC with an AP who didn't want to end it, that feels plausible to me.

For those of you that were approached by your BS about their concerns during your A about A related things, such as changed behavior noticed by the BS or concerns about a certain person being too close or friendly with/to you, and you blew off their concerns, what was your thinking at that time about the concerns and how do you feel about that now? Have you addressed this lying with your IC and BS and if you have, how has that gone? I was bringing issues up with my fwh as they came up, but they were dismissed.

Thanks in advance to the WS’s that respond. I’m curious about the following things:

***did you and your BS keep the affair to yourselves?

***if you shared it with your children, how’d you go about that initially, but more importantly, how are you managing it with them now?

***if you shared it with parents/in-laws, how/what are you doing to repair those relationships?

***are you ever concerned that the OBS might reach out to you? have they already?

***do you ever worry that your BS might leave you even though you are working towards R?

***how do you manage now being looked at and thought of differently by your BS.

***did you and your BS keep the affair to yourselves?

Yes, though I sometimes suspect that my teenagers have overheard bits and pieces of our discussions about it. In our case, we're processing trickle truth from an A that occurred decades ago, before we were married, so if they do know anything, I think they see it as ancient history. Other than that, I've talked to a few trusted friends, who mostly have been sorry to hear that this is still a factor in our relationship.

***are you ever concerned that the OBS might reach out to you? have they already?

I've been NC for 29 years, and OM was single, so no.

***do you ever worry that your BS might leave you even though you are working towards R?

I'm about as sure as I can be that that won't happen... but yes. I feel like neither of us knows when, how, or if he will consider himself healed, so there's always that scary possibility that one day he will wake up and decide that life with me isn't worth it. I'm very fortunate that he knows he wants to stay with me and is working hard to forgive, so that's really all I can ask or expect.

***how do you manage now being looked at and thought of differently by your BS.

It's hard, but then I don't look at myself the same way, either, and in some ways, that's even harder. Doing the work means looking my least attractive tendencies and qualities in the face. I've had to let go of the "good person in a tough situation" narrative and admit to my selfishness and cowardice. I'm extraordinarily lucky to have a BH who is also doing his own work to confront things in himself that led to poor choices and terrible consequences. It has brought us closer together than we have ever been. I'm not in any way saying that the A was a good thing, but I wish we had found some other way to open up to each other on this level of honesty and intimacy years ago. Better yet, I wish I had had this level of self-awareness years before the A, so that I could actually have been the person he thought he was marrying.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 5:43 PM, March 15th (Friday)]

***did you and your BS keep the affair to yourselves?

No.

***if you shared it with your children, how’d you go about that initially, but more importantly, how are you managing it with them now?

We didn’t have children.

***if you shared it with parents/in-laws, how/what are you doing to repair those relationships?

With my FOO, actions over words. With his FOO, I’m not interested in having a relationship beyond the superficially polite; to that end, I am polite. We divorced after my A was discovered so I’m not interested in their opinions from a marriage that no longer exists. They said to him “if you love her, we will love her too” and they are polite to me, but I don’t care about what they think on a personal level.

***are you ever concerned that the OBS might reach out to you? have they already?

There wasn’t an OBS.

***do you ever worry that your BS might leave you even though you are working towards R?

LOL—no—he remarried me and had kids with me.

***how do you manage now being looked at and thought of differently by your BS.

It’s not something I spend any time thinking about. We don’t talk about it, so I have no idea how he thinks of me, although I’m sure it’s differently. But it’s not something I’m interested in worrying about or caring about.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 3:00 PM, March 15th (Friday)]

**did you and your BS keep the affair to yourselves?

We each told a couple of people that we trusted. He told his best friends and I told my sister and my best friend.

***if you shared it with your children, how’d you go about that initially, but more importantly, how are you managing it with them now?

We have no children and are not planning on any.

*

**if you shared it with parents/in-laws, how/what are you doing to repair those relationships?

We did not share with my parents and my BH's parents passed away.

***are you ever concerned that the OBS might reach out to you? have they already?

There was no OBS. AP was single.

***do you ever worry that your BS might leave you even though you are working towards R?

This is always a worry. Infidelity is a deal-breaker in so many ways. The best I can hope for is a renewed M, a BH who will continue to work with my to that end.

*

**how do you manage now being looked at and thought of differently by your BS.

This is incredibly hard to deal with. I have learned many things about myself, some of which give me pride while others are so truly awful. My BH does not have the same view of me, or of our M, and neither do I. I like the person I am becoming and think my BH does as well.

***did you and your BS keep the affair to yourselves?

We mostly kept it private. That was his decision. My sister and her husband knows. My parents, my MIL, and my BH’s brother and my SIL know. My BH’s best friend also knows.

***if you shared it with your children, how’d you go about that initially, but more importantly, how are you managing it with them now?

My husband didn’t want our children to know at all. The truth is neither did I, but I told them anyway and made a mess of it. It’s a long story. Only our girls know. Our boys are too young. The girls went to therapy for a while and we also went to family counseling. They were very hurt and angry in the beginning and felt betrayed by me. Therapy helped them process and work through their anger. But there were lots of tough conversations at home and acting up and lashing out too. After some time they followed how my BH acted with me took guidance from him. My girls are older now and two are married so they have their own lives and my BH’s and my relationship is not in their face every day. We will tell our boys when we feel the time is right. We want them to hear it from us and not find out from their sisters.

***if you shared it with parents/in-laws, how/what are you doing to repair those relationships?

My A just confirmed to my MIL that I was always the bitch she thought I was. I have a very dysfunctional relationship with my parents. I’m not trying to repair anything because nothing I do will ever be good enough.

***are you ever concerned that the OBS might reach out to you? have they already?

She has. It was to get a deposition for her D from my AP. I helped in whatever way I could. Since then I haven’t heard from her and I don’t expect to.

***do you ever worry that your BS might leave you even though you are working towards R?

I don’t worry about it, but I know it’s a real possibility. I’m hopeful he won’t but he might. If it happens, it’s my BH’s decision, but I don’t really spend time worrying about it. My focus is on my growth and our M. What if’s don’t help.

***how do you manage now being looked at and thought of differently by your BS.

Lots and lots and lots of IC. The other question you didn’t ask is how do you manage looking at yourself differently and thinking of yourself differently? Same answer. Tons of IC. My focus was more on my question. A lot of the work I did was on my growth and dealing with my issues. I can’t control how my BH thinks of me. And talking to him about how I’m different or how I changed doesn’t help. But if he sees that I am emotionally healthier and that I’m acting differently, then I still can’t control his thoughts, but my behavior will give him more information to think about when he looks at me. That sounds really manipulative. I don’t mean it that I planned that or thought of it that way. What I’m saying is that I did what I did and how he views me impacts me obviously, but I couldn’t do anything about that. My job was to focus on my whys and my growth. And I think how my BH viewed me and how that has changed over time was affected by my work much more than anything I could have said.

***did you and your BS keep the affair to yourselves?

For many years, except for a few people, early on to get counsel from and the ones who knew by association. Recently, it has become more open knowledge.

***if you shared it with your children, how’d you go about that initially, but more importantly, how are you managing it with them now?

This is a current issue for my bs and I. Some of the children know more than others about my betrayals. It is something that I'm not really sure how is going to be managed. My bs has decided what and how much he chooses to share on that issue and I'm not sure where it's all going to go or how it will get processed by the kids, and so it's a bit of an iffy thing right now.

***are you ever concerned that the OBS might reach out to you? have they already?

I actually wish that any obs would contact me/us. I would like the opportunity to express the shame and sadness I feel for the damage I caused their families and for them to be able to say whatever they feel they need to to me. It might also give my bs some closure in being about to talk with not only the obs but also possibly to confront my infidelity partners.

***do you ever worry that your BS might leave you even though you are working towards R?

Yes. Regularly, in a way. I'm not sure that my bs would have ever considered leaving me up until recently and now I feel like he actually might. I only hope that if he chooses to leave that it allows him to actually heal instead of causing even further damage to his heart/soul.

***how do you manage now being looked at and thought of differently by your BS.

This is something that I am trying to walk carefully in. The further we get on this path, the more my eyes are opened to how my bs really looks at and thinks of me, now, and honestly, it threatens to destroy me if I embrace it fully, therefore I have to hold those things at a bit of arms length. But I don't want to not look at those things and find the truth in them, either, so I end up doing this weird dance in my heart and mind of pulling those things towards me, looking at them and trying to process them some and then pushing them back to arms length again before I get to close to the rabbit hole.