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BS Questions for WS's - Part 13

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Pippin posted 6/10/2019 13:05 PM

Iím happy to reinforce your epiphany (and glad you had it). Yes, checklist living is soul sucking. I had a long list of achievements, parenting and otherwise, and a withered heart. Eldredgeís books Ransomed Heart and Wild at Heart were a good antidote for me and I think they work even if you are not Christian.

maise posted 6/12/2019 13:39 PM

Iím starting to realize that even after a year of this- my wife wonít stop the same behaviors. Trickle truth, avoidance, denial...sheís in IC, SLAA, reads a bunch a books and writes...but when it comes to doing the work with herself she falls short. Itís as if she believes one day itíll just all fall into place. Sheís still stuck in wishing for some sort of KISA to save her from herself. She does a lot of external stuff. Helps with responsibilities and cleaning and the kids. But Iím getting tired and feeling like sheís really just toxic due to her refusal to change.

For those of you that can relate, is there any insight you could give? Iím starting to think telling her to leave may be my only option. Keeping her around as she is isnít helping my healing or progress.

godheals posted 6/12/2019 16:03 PM

maise- is your wife still lying? Has she owe up to her A? Taken responsibility for anything?

Without this she canít change. You can read books all day long but if you donít see yourself as the problem the person will not have a reason to change or apply the information to their own life and change it. First step is saying you are the problem or you have a problem then be willing to change it. She canít change if she donít see the problem and/or be willing and determine to change.

I also want to know what she is telling her IC. If she is lying and not being honest with her IC then she canít fix her problems or issues. She needs to owe up, take responsibility, stop lying and not be in denial.

maise posted 6/12/2019 16:14 PM

Godheals: I think she talks a good talk. Sheís admitted to things but then backtracks and continues to lie. She blamed me just a little bit ago that Iím the one that doesnít let her be honest because I donít Ďgive her a chanceí Iím like....thatís a load of bs. She threatened suicide when I asked her if she can move out because she is toxic. She claims to be changing but really she only admits to what she wants to admit to and hides whatever else she doesnít want to show. Every time I turn around she has some new lie sheís revealing. Now itís that she still thinks of her AP on a daily and wants to have sex with her every day. Iím not surprised, but itís ridiculous that she still lies about it. After reading so much I know that waywards suffer from withdrawals. The sad part is that she still wants to be a liar.

I feel like a caged animal. She wonít leave, yet sticks around and wonít change either...still doing all her same behaviors...I feel like Iím losing my mind. When I go along and pretend like everything is fine and donít bring anything up she does the same. She goes along with everyday pretending everything is good. I canít live this way. Sheís so manipulative.

She pretends to see the problem but does nothing to address it. Except for maybe wear another more shiny mask to make it seem like sheís addressing it. That doesnít work with me anymore.

Today she wants to have another day like yesterday, where I pretend all is well between us by not saying anything and have her hangout with the kids and I. I prefer to do things apart so that I can enjoy my time without pretending with her but she says: ďthe kids wonít like it if we are apart. You should do it for them.Ē

Right cause the kids canít tell when thereís tension and itís fake too. I canít with her.

Sorry Iím ranting. Sheís on my nerves & Iím feeling caged and annoyed and just...ugh!

foreverlabeled posted 6/13/2019 05:57 AM

Maise, the way your WW is showing her true self is very telling how the rest of your life will be if you stay in this M. I think you are right she's toxic. I hate to say that about my fellow waywards especially because she's a member here. But if the shoe fits ya know?

I have a huge issue with her treat of suicide. That alone would be enough for me. Its manipulation, she uses it as a sick weapon, I could go on about how disgusting it is. That shows she is nowhere close to being safe, not to mention everything else you've listed. Its impossible to R under thses conditions. I can only imagine how crazy you must feel. Have you thought about the 180? It might prove difficult in your situation because of her manipulation tactics you'll have to find the strength to be stronger than that at first.

I really don't have much to offer maise just saw that you are struggling and well, big hugs.

BraveSirRobin posted 6/13/2019 07:31 AM

the kids wonít like it if we are apart. You should do it for them.Ē
That seriously pisses me off. If she was so worried about the kids, she could have kept her hands off the OW. Turning the responsibility for her bad choices on you is despicable. I've warned WS on stop-signed threads in Wayward to never, never pull that shit.

I'm sorry, maise. I think you pretty much know what the answer to your question is, but I'm sad to have to confirm it.

maise posted 6/13/2019 10:30 AM

Thank you foreverlabeled and bravesirrobin for your support and feedback. Big return hugs. Iíve not really implemented the 180. I tried for a day or two and then would give in to some things I shouldnít. Youíre right when you say Iíd have to be strong enough not to give into manipulations and rise above them. I realize I give into two things from the 180 that are no bueno. Iím going to try to implement it again and really push to just live my life. I have to do what I can while sheís here to keep me sane so the 180 it is. Iíve struggled with depression lately but am slowly pulling out and have a new IC that can hopefully help.

The suicide threats and ďfor the kidsĒ crap definitely irritated me too. I thought the same thing: ďif you cared about the kids you wouldnít have done this in the first place and certainly not threaten suicide.Ē Sheís a walking contradiction. But I have to remind myself I can only control me. The hardest thing I will say has been creating separation while together. I think I find myself in a weird space with wanting to do things and then knowing itíll be challenging to maneuver between the kids and just overall unsticking what we do together. I did a good job with it yesterday, Iíll keep practicing that.

Pippin posted 6/13/2019 12:33 PM

Maise, I'm so sorry for your terrible year and your continued pain.

I think that your BS and I had an exchange a few months ago which provoked an emotional reaction for her - referring to her FOO issues and that she didn't deserve the treatment she got or the coping mechanisms she had to develop to deal with it.

I hung on hard to the views of the world and the coping mechanisms I had developed because I didn't think there was a better alternative, or really any alternative. That may be what is going on for her. I don't think her behavior is deliberately organized to hurt or stymie you. I think she doesn't really believe there is another way and she's doing the best she can within the wrong framework.

I desperately wanted to find a way out of the affair, while it was happening, and the fog, after the affair, and did all the white knuckling I could. Nothing worked. Six months after the end of the affair and one year after it had started, I was still depressed, miserable, etc. Despite my husband being as supportive as he could be, in every way he could think of. The only times I felt OK were when I was with him and able to manage little kindnesses, but it was far from enough to heal.

Ultimately, what worked for me was committing to complete and total honesty, about what happened during the affair and all the steps in my life that led up to it. My husband offered empathy, compassion, insight, and acceptance, without judgment, at every disclosure, even if there was more I wasn't sharing. So little by little I began to believe that I could be honest with him and there would be no price to pay in terms of him being cruel, judgmental, or demanding that I be a doormat of a person or a second class spouse. Even then, it was my own cognitive dissonance that forced the change. He couldn't have made it happen with any behavior of his.

I realize it's not a typical narrative or realistic for many/most couples. I am sharing this because it's a true account of what happened for us ,and to show how very, very impossible it is to make a wayward change who doesn't want to.

I think the 180 is advised for BS to create emotional and mental space in uncertain times. It sometimes has the effect of showing a WS how much they have to lose which they genuinely may not have understood, and that is sometimes enough to prompt the real changes. But often it isn't, so a BS has to do it for themselves. A WS in a defensive crouch can find ways in their own mind to blame a BS doing the 180 for the dissolution of the marriage. A defensive mind has a sick genius that should not be underestimated.

A WS has to be in so much pain that staying in the same place feels impossible. And even WITH a totally supportive spouse I had to do the same - to be in more pain staying still than changing. Right now, it seems like she's got lots of treading water mechanisms to stay in this place that doesn't work for you, doesn't really work for her, but it's better than what she thinks the alternative is, which is facing what she has done and become.

I feel for both of you.

maise posted 6/16/2019 14:41 PM

Hey Pippin,

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me and provide your insight. It truly is sad that my WS refuses to change. I agree with you when you say the pain from staying the same has to exceed the fear of changing and facing herself. I think she's too comfortable. Even now as I type this she is repeating her same patterns...she woke up as she usually does...not bringing up the affair, or anything regarding our issues at hand. If I sit here and allow it - she will just go along every single day as the same person. General conversation about responsibilities, the kids, and whatever else...she will act as though there is nothing to be worked through or nothing else truly going on on an emotional level. It really ticks me off. I hate playing this game with her....that's typically part of why I want her to leave. Right now I got upset and she went to the living room to sleep it off and pretend nothing happened, the usual. I'm just focusing on the kiddos and myself...if she wants to waste the days of her life that's on her. I choose not to waste mine anymore than I already have by unknowingly playing this charade with her.

When asked why she keeps the same behaviors she mentioned she feels a sense of rebellion and at times will also feel like she will mess it up or won't be able to so she just won't. I guess as long as those thoughts are there then she literally will fulfill just that. She has some work her psychologist asked her to do - she hasn't done it...of course she'd prefer to sleep or clean or whatever else. I actually know her like the back of my hand now. Anything to distract is what she will do. Whether it be cleaning, discussing general things, responsibilities with the kids, work, or watching tv...if none are available then she will just sleep it off. Same ol' same ol'...

I asked her if she would take a polygraph test...she snapped at me and said she wouldn't pay for it. I'm at the point where it literally doesn't matter anymore because I'm so tired. She just needs to go live under her cloud of misery by herself already.

mamabear22 posted 6/17/2019 11:42 AM

WS why? And what do you do with it?

for those WH and WW that have done the work and found the Why or whys to why you had the affair, what did you find? Why Did you do it? And what did you do with finding out?
My WH says he doesn't know why, but wishes that he did. But then what do you do with it? Just be aware?
We are having our couples counselling tonight and he has said that he is going to ask to do more IC.

[This message edited by mamabear22 at 12:26 PM, June 17th (Monday)]

ff4152 posted 6/17/2019 13:47 PM


The crux of it for me was one of selfishness. Everything had to be about me and having my needs met. I wonít go into details (PM if you want the complete version) but for many many years, my wife put up with a lot. Naturally she was a bit resentful and pulled back. Of course instead of talking to her about it, I chose to have an A. It only occurred to me after the A had been over for a while that I was the one who turned their back on our marriage, not her.

One of the things that Iíve really tried to focus on was to put myself in my wifeís shoes. I try and see situations through my wifeís eyes instead of my own. Itís been a struggle but itís one thing Iíve been able to do pretty consistently and I think sheís noticed that.

Chaos posted 6/17/2019 14:00 PM

Here's one - what where you WH thinking/feeling when you lied to us repeatedly. During the A and after DDay when you used TT. I'm very curious.

mamabear22 posted 6/17/2019 15:28 PM

ff4152 - thank you for your reply.
I don't need details, but can you elaborate a bit, Emotional needs? sexual needs?
Are you able to talk about your needs with her now?
Good on you for doing the hard work. And I am glad she has noticed.
I am hoping that my FWH can get to this point he doesn't seem to have the ability to have insight.

ff4152 posted 6/17/2019 20:09 PM


The thing I failed/refused to consider is I was getting my needs met. Itís hard to explain. It never occurred to me that there had to be an equal give and take. My wife gave a lot and me, not so much. At least in the few years leading up to the A is was always one sided.

And to be blunt, I had devolved to such a state that it wouldnít have mattered what she did, I probably would have cheated anyway. I think thatís one of the hardest things for a BS to comprehend. There was no deficiency on your part or my wifeís. I could have done a hundred different things other than cheat. But I didnít. She has always been a great wife, I was just too stupid to realize that until now.

BraveSirRobin posted 6/17/2019 21:12 PM

Finding my whys is critical to not repeating my wayward behaviors. In my case, I'm not as concerned about cheating again. I've been faithful for 30 years. The TT, however, only ended very recently, and I'm seeing that it is part of a lifelong pattern of evading responsibility for my actions. I told myself that I was protecting BH from the truth, and of course, I didn't want to hurt him more than I already had. But I completely skimmed over my obvious self-protection in giving him a carefully redacted version of the A.

I've spent most of my life believing I was a good person. I want to spend the rest of it actually being one. I can't do that without facing the awful things I've done. And since I'm obviously capable of doing those awful things, the only way to ensure that I won't repeat the behavior is to understand why I gave myself permission to do them in the first place.

If you would like to read the specifics of my whys, I posted them several months ago: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=635803. Warning, it's a long account, even by my generally wordy standards.

ff4152 posted 6/17/2019 21:21 PM


I can only speak of the time during my A. What was I thinking? Well I was the king of compartmentalization so I was able to keep things pretty separate in my mind. I only saw my AP during work hours so I never had to lie about where I was. I never really took away much time with my family to text/talk to my AP. If I ran to the store I might call my AP on the way but that was rare. Because I deserved to have a side piece I felt pretty justified so that helped keep the guilt at bay for a while.

Towards the end of the A, my guilt started eating at me enough to where I ended things. Although I was initially torn up about losing my ďsoulmateĒ I did find a sense of relief that it was over.

BraveSirRobin posted 6/17/2019 22:09 PM

Here's one - what where you WH thinking/feeling when you lied to us repeatedly. During the A and after DDay when you used TT. I'm very curious.
During the A, I was in a LDR, and my contact with my BBF was infrequent. I was in class during the days and he worked nights, and in our relationship, I was usually the one who took the initiative to call. I called a lot less often, and when I did, I totally compartmentalized the A. I did my best not to think about the OM when I was on the phone with BBF, and if I thought about BBF when I was with OM... God, it's hard to describe. BBF was always there because he was part of me, but the importance of him was carefully wrapped up and tucked away. Like when you're moving, and all the things you care most about in your daily life are packed up in boxes, in a truck on the way to somewhere else. My A had a built-in end date because OM was graduating, so I was immersed in the experience of it, knowing subconsciously that reality was waiting just around the corner. Not that I admitted that at the time. At the time, I just filed the consequences away as Tomorrow Girl's problem and pretended that the future would somehow solve itself.

Immediately after the A, I disclosed the basics to BBF the first time that I saw him. By then the fog had started to wear off, but I actually didn't think he would be as hurt as he was. I thought he would be furious, I thought there was a decent chance he would break up with me, but I was totally unprepared for the devastation. I immediately went into damage control mode. I admitted the sex but made it sound far less physically extensive and emotionally involved than it really was. BBF was in shock and inclined to rugsweep. I honestly can't remember how hard he pressed for details, but I managed to deflect them. At that point, my primary feelings were pain, guilt, and relief that I didn't have to hurt him more or face the full consequences that I so richly deserved.

In the most recent round of TT, I had to break down the lies I told myself before I could deal with the lies I was telling him. I blocked out so much during the rugsweeping. I reached a point where I tried to convince myself that if I didn't remember exactly what happened, then I couldn't be sure it really did happen. I remembered that there was sex, and that the acts were more extensive than I admitted, but I had only flashes of the specifics. I've written this before, but it was like my 20-year-old self was crashing through my brain, slamming doors and locking them, trying to prevent me from seeing what was behind them. I had to force each admission out, lying to myself as well as BH that "that's it, that's everything." What I meant was "That's everything I can bear to tell you, and more than I ever imagined I would tell; the rest is going with me to the grave, because I'm so terrified I'm going to lose you."

I'm so ashamed to say that I put him though several rounds of this before I saw what was in front of my face. I finally comprehended that I was pushing him into a terrifying wasteland of never believing another word I said, of never trusting me on any level, of never trusting anyone. That's when something finally broke inside me, and I admitted to myself that it wasn't him I was protecting. By then, I had done so much damage that it was almost too late.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:12 PM, June 17th (Monday)]

Countrygirl10 posted 6/18/2019 07:02 AM

Why would a WS cross a boundary again if they Ďtrulyí love their BS with the outcome being divorce if said boundary is crossed?
And also, why delete texts/calls itís 2019 their are so many other ways for a BS to gather information.

fooled13years posted 6/19/2019 07:26 AM

I originally posted this in the wrong forum.

Bella Thorne is in the news. If I read the news article correctly, nude photos were hacked from her phone and a person was trying to extort money from her to stop the release of the photos. She posted the photos herself to remove the possibility of extortion.
I have a question for both men and women who sent photos to their AP, was the possibility of the photos going public ever considered? Did the photos you sent ever come back to haunt you? Besides of course either of the BSs finding them.

I tell kids to be careful of what they put out on the internet as once it is out there it could be out there forever.

My wife and I send flirty texts to each other but we draw the line at photos.

Chaos posted 6/19/2019 18:50 PM

Iím a BS. But as for photos WH and AP sent each other nudes. And of them in bed together. And of them pleasuring themselves. Graphic.

While they werenít publicly leaked - my teenage daughter and her friend found them. I canít think of a worse scenario. My children had to be the ones who told me and sent me those photos.

When I (finally) told OBS and sent them to him - I made sure he knew that my baby found them.

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