SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm gonna do something that I haven't done in 32 years.

I'm going to the High School Football game tonight.

I'm gonna sneak some booze in.

I might ask my wife if she wants to make out under the stands.

Tomorrow - Back to reality as I am going to paint the house. Gotta replace a couple pieces of dry rotted wood.

I'm sure there will be a barley pop or two in there on Saturday as well.

I hope I don't fall off the ladder.

Have a swig of your blackmarket beer for me!

Southern Comfort, right, BrainFreeze? Drinking in HS just doesn't count unless everybody knows you're doing it.

Well, we went to the football game.

Both of my kids went too, although it was odd that we didn't take them, they drove there themselves or with friends. Weird...just weird...

The place was loaded with police and news crews. So we didn't sneak the booze in. I didn't realize it but it was the cross town rivals we were playing.

Our High School lost, but it was a fantastic, cool fall evening.

Oh... and... did you know that you can't get under the bleachers any more. They built a concession stand under there and it's full of crap to buy.

You'll never guess what I bought my wife...

Yup, a slushy!!! No booze... too many cops..

Got the wood rot repaired on Saturday, gutters back up, and the entire front of the house repainted on Sunday... Taking Advil now.

(still gotta do the back of the house)

Sounds like a good time!

In my high school days it was MD 20/20

Boot flasks come in all shapes and sizes...after infidelity, I figure since I only have so many good years left, there is no time for bad beer and cheap liquor. Top shelf only. So no MD 20/20, no Bartles and James, etc. Have flask will travel.

Gents, I just finished reading (perusing) SisterMilkshake's thread in Off-Topic "Silent No More - Who Do You Tell." It's not easy to read, but well worth the time and the insight gained.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 10:18 PM, September 25th (Tuesday)]

SisterMilkshake's post is quite powerful.

It is something that I have never asked my wife about, I wonder what her experiences are in those regards.

I agree, that thread is so powerful. And terrifying for me personally, because my daughter is away at college as a freshman right now. And I know what college guys are like.

Tip from an old-timer: butt sex demand threads are never going to go over well in General.

You want to talk about demanding (anything) from *especially* hypothetical WWs -- like there's a panacea that will cover all situations -- it's just going to rile people from a ton of different backgrounds and experiences...even ones that don't have anything to do with their current infidelity crisis. (As noted above: See Sister's thread in Off Topic; in 2018 America, pretty much every woman you know has a story of a sexual assault that happened at some point in their formative years.)

When you talk about "demanding" anything in the body-possession arena, you're mashing that hot button. Talk about your specific situation in General, without trying to make broad proscriptions about how they should be approached. Save that sort of sloganeering for the Menz Thread. If history is any guide, you're going to get the exact same audience (WWs) that you're really trying to talk to, because many (most?) also read these threads trying to get insight into what their BH is really thinking.

Ask yourself what *you're* thinking first. Is there really any insight you're expecting to gain from a WW when you lead off with "demand and cower" topics? My personal opinion is that in almost every case I've ever seen -- my own included -- most of the shit that falls out of WW posts for the first three years is self-absorbed, self-indulgent, "if I can get me right, then it'll all be right", "the best thing I can do for my husband is become the best version of myself" bullshit. (It's literally the exact same process of having an affair: trying on new roles/personalities that reflect themselves in the best possible light...only this time, the AP is themselves. We're just props and bystanders in the new self-affair.) In any event: mistaking wind sprints for marathon training. We all do this when we have to change major parts of ourselves. We repeat bullshit like "anything you do for three weeks becomes a lifelong habit" and other glib bits of advice.

My sense after all these years is that when you take the long view, what mostly ends up changing is the renewed commitment not to fuck other people reinforced by the reality of consequences if there's a slip, but most other personality changes devolve back to default settings. (Childhood programming is powerful.) Minus the trauma of the affair itself, this is actually okay for most of us, because if we liked her enough to marry her in the first place, chances are we'll like her enough again once the first few years have receded into the rearview: only now you've got some currency to spend when you want to do shit for yourself that once would have taken enthusiastic mutual agreement to carve out the space/time/resources. (Not saying it's an InstaWin, but it does put the last nail in the "happy wife, happy life" philosophy that our society has subscribed so many of us to.)

The tl;dr: "demand" in here. It's just ranting at the universe, and we all know it. You can inflict just as much misery on the invisible WW you see in your mind's eye from here, without having to listen to the inevitable counter-carping that just serves to entrench your aggrieved rant into a for-realz opinion with increasingly tortured philosophical commitments.

Wal, don't try to educate me with your DAMN logic and understanding! What the hell??? I'M SITTING HERE READING YOUR POST AND FEELING SMARTER!!!!

Fuck that shit. I'm gonna take a dump, maybe brush my teeth, go to bed, and try to forget the eyesearing wisdom you think you're gonna bestow on me.

You're like a mountain hippy sage talking to a goat here man. You should know better.

Reference that last post by wincing_at_light was talking about "demands" in general. 12 female posters, 10 against and 2 that had different outlooks. ALL FEMALE posters were BW's NOT a single WW posted so ALL the female opinions were from people who HAD never cheated!!! So of course they were coming at this with the outrage of the innocent not the repentance of the guilty!

In the circumstances these Ladies find themselves, they see themselves as "Defender of Womanhood"!!! They have none of the humility of the women that have betrayed their husbands, children and themselves.

I mean it is like a man trying to describe the pain and joy of giving birth. Think about it, men have studied childbirth since we discovered US. Yet no matter how much we study we will never experience it so we can NEVER talk with true authority on it. They can not understand the mindset of a WW anymore than we can.

To these innocent (of the crime of cheating) Ladies they have a RIGHT to their opinion but it is not the voice of experience that we need to understand the mindset of a WW.

edit to add, This post had NOTHING to do with the who do you tell thread except 1 poster who was trying to post on basically spousal rape but it was worded in a way that set me off. I then started a thread t/j to who did you tell that focused on my misreading of the Lady's original post. THAT is the thread this post was written to! My apology's to anybody who thought I was posting about the horrors of the original thread.

If it sounded like I was posting about the original thread I would like to again apologize if anybody misconstrued my original intent.

JMO YMMV

[This message edited by Candyman66 at 11:21 PM, September 26th (Wednesday)]

BrainFreeze, my grand daughters have both been cheerleaders for their high school so being the chauffeur I have gone to many games over the last 5 years.

I don't know if there are new rules or what is going on but some of the games have been phenomenal!

I went to a high school that was a VERY strong school in football (2 Hall of Fame's players. Marcus Allen and Tyrell Davis) and NEVER SEEN performances like these.

In last years in the championship game against an undefeated team 1 player ran for 383 yards and 8 touchdowns!!! That was not a typo! Last Friday he ran for 365 yards and 4 touchdowns. When Marcus was at my (well after I graduated) school he ran for 169 yards and 3 touchdowns and 3 scores. He went on to pro football hall of Fame.That is over twice as far as Marcus.

I hope you had a great time at the game, I know I have.

Candyman, I read some of your thread in the G forum. I've read similar threads since joining. It's a recurring theme, you know?

I can't really speak from experience here, so take it with the grain a salt is certainly deserves. My FWW didn't have a full blown affair. I busted her within days of her one and only trip down infidelity lane (at least as far as I know). She didn't do anything unusual or out of the ordinary. It was hands and intercourse; nothing oral, nothing anal, nothing kinky or bizarre (she's always been very vanilla when it comes to sex).

That being said, I think you, and just about every other BH who has expressed the same thoughts and feelings, are looking for a sense of justice that simply doesn't exist.

Infidelity is a base and self-destructive course of action. Personally, I think both men and women degrade themselves in the process. "They always affair down," is a very common theme when it comes to affairs, which would suggest that by and large APs are lesser men and lesser women. They are not worthy. SO while a WS is already engage in base behavior, blowing up their lives and the lives of everyone around them, why not engage is a few degrading acts along the way?

I don't find it particularly strange that WWs will do all sorts of things with their APs that they won't do with their BHs. I also happen to agree that using coercion to force a woman to perform sexual acts with which she is clearly not comfortable isn't honorable or right. Being a BH doesn't give one the right to demand certain forms of contrition as a condition of reconciliation.

Infidelity is crazy-making shit.

(most of you know where I got that from)

Women aren't sex toys, even if they are foolish enough to allow some POSOM to use them as such.

ETA: Which reminds me, SMS's thread. Keep reading gents. If you haven't read it yet, do so.

I think (I hope) the #metoo movement encourages some much needed changes in our society. One in three women experience sexual assault at some point in their lives. Not just harassment, guys. Assault. It's one in six for men, btw. The vast majority of sexual assaults go unreported. Conviction rates for sexual assault are among the lowest for any form of crime (less than 10%).

The #metoo movement isn't just a women's issues. The value of more and more women speaking out cannot be underestimated. However, real change will not occur until we--the men--realize that it's also a men's issue. It's a men's issues because we could be doing our own version of the movement, but with the hashtag: #himtoo.

Men need to start calling out each other on this sick twisted bullshit. We need to teach our sons. We need to set the example and set the bar. We need to have the balls to stand-up to the pricks out there who think sexually assaulting our mothers, sisters and daughters is acceptable behavior. It's not manly. It's not macho. It's not cool, or funny. It doesn't make you an alpha-male. And so on and so forth.

Okay, stepping off my soap box.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 11:33 PM, September 26th (Wednesday)]

For the record, I do recognize that between my post and Unhinged's, what we're essentially doing is giving another flavor of "be the bigger person" advice.

Which, you know, I hate. Because that's pretty much what every BS gets told. No matter how shitty your spouse has been to you, be the bigger person, play by the rules, do the healthy and right thing to take care of this damaged person who has harmed and degraded themselves with an affair. Blah, blah, blah. Twelve years out, my guts still recoil at the injustice of that.

But in this case, it's sound advice. If you didn't like degrading your wife sexually prior to her affair, you're probably not that sort of person now, even when you're in pain. It would wreck you to actually demand it. I don't really give a fuck about whether or not it adds more damage to the hypothetical WW, but the subsequent stain of dishonor on the BH's soul just isn't worth it.

I don't have many rules for the war of attrition that is recon. I'm a big fan of fighting dirty when you need to...or even when you just want to. I don't even have a problem with doing hurtful shit just to share the pain. Not everything you do has to be conducive to rebuilding the relationship. You've earned some ducats to spend on just being an asshole.

But the caveat there is that you still need to be able to look at yourself in the mirror. Don't let pain or injustice push you over that line that's going to make you ashamed of yourself later. Those actions are the only ones that will haunt you.

OK.. I'll bite.

Which, you know, I hate. Because that's pretty much what every BS gets told. No matter how shitty your spouse has been to you, be the bigger person, play by the rules, do the healthy and right thing to take care of this damaged person who has harmed and degraded themselves with an affair. Blah, blah, blah. Twelve years out, my guts still recoil at the injustice of that.

But in this case, it's sound advice. If you didn't like degrading your wife sexually prior to her affair, you're probably not that sort of person now, even when you're in pain. It would wreck you to actually demand it. I don't really give a fuck about whether or not it adds more damage to the hypothetical WW, but the subsequent stain of dishonor on the BH's soul just isn't worth it.

I agree with the first paragraph in spades. First off, let's just call it for what it really is, a WHOLE LOT of WS's aren't "broken" or "damaged" or "sensitive and hurt", they are just shitty people. At least at the time of the A they are. I know plenty of WH's in my personal/professional life, they aren't some beaten down broken guy. Nope. They are just over entitled assholes. Was my wife a beaten/damaged/FOO laden person? No, not really, and NOTHING compared to some (including me). She had a great childhood. She had a few tough relationships as a young woman, who the heck doesn't. No drug/drink issues, no mental health problems. Nope, just your standard, run of the mill cake eater who was sucked in by another man willing to tell her whatever it took to get into her pants. I'm SO sick of the general (better here than most places, for sure) he cheats, his fault, she cheats, his fault mantra that seems to surround female affairs.

With one exception, I NEVER saw anyone saying in the "I want what he got" threads saying "I want to degrade and hurt my wife". In fact, what I saw was a whole lot of pain for BH's, a whole lot of men who wanted to share and have intimate experiences with their wives that were denied them. Do I want to have my wife give me a BJ to hurt her? Of course not. I want her to do that because it's loving, intimate, feels good, and sexually exciting, hopefully for both of us. I agree, if you're looking for "what he got" as a way to hurt your WW, you need to check yourself. But, that's NOT what I see in the vast majority of the male posts on those threads.

I don't find it particularly strange that WWs will do all sorts of things with their APs that they won't do with their BHs. I also happen to agree that using coercion to force a woman to perform sexual acts with which she is clearly not comfortable isn't honorable or right. Being a BH doesn't give one the right to demand certain forms of contrition as a condition of reconciliation.

You don't need to be a BH to "demand" certain sexual acts. If I D'ed my W, and was dating again, you better believe it would be a requirement for the "good stuff" from anyone I was seriously dating. If it wasn't being offered freely, I'd move on. I'd tell them it was important to me, and they would be free to do it or not, but I'm NEVER going to be in this situation again of having OM swoop in and get all the sex that I wanted to have with my SO. Nope, not going to happen. It's just a requirement for me moving forward, I put myself last sexually for far too long in my M. Never doing it again. So my W can choose, she can decide to accept this or not, and she can look at it is a demand or a requirement, I really don't care. But I'm not going to push that part of myself down again, not for her, and not for any woman that might follow her should I D. It's a non-negotiable, the experience with my W has shown me that women are happy to do all the "kink" when they really want something, and will hold it back when they think they've got it "locked down". Well, guess what, if you (to my WW) or anyone else (to a potential new SO) want to "lock this down", that's just a hard requirement. Just like for my W, maybe love poems would be a hard requirement moving forward; or endless words of affirmation, or whatever else she feels was/is missing from our relationship.

I think (I hope) the #metoo movement encourages some much needed changes in our society. One in three women experience sexual assault at some point in their lives. Not just harassment, guys. Assault. It's one in six for men, btw. The vast majority of sexual assaults go unreported. Conviction rates for sexual assault are among the lowest for any form of crime (less than 10%).

If this is true, then there's something far more wrong about our society than a hashtag is going to fix. I was physically assaulted twice as a young man by women, and countless times in college I slept with women when I was too drunk to consent. Using the standards that prevail today, I'm in that 1-6 number many, many times over. But if those numbers are right, about 33% of men and 17% of women should be in jail for the rest of their lives. There's something wrong with that, just structurally, if you think about it. I can't put my finger on what it is, I really can't, but saying that 1-3 men and 1-6 women have committed a class A felony seems to scream to me that something is wrong. Are 33% of men rapists? That means that if you have 10 friends, 3 have raped someone.. Does that seem to make sense to you?

Men need to start calling out each other on this sick twisted bullshit. We need to teach our sons. We need to set the example and set the bar. We need to have the balls to stand-up to the pricks out there who think sexually assaulting our mothers, sisters and daughters is acceptable behavior. It's not manly. It's not macho. It's not cool, or funny. It doesn't make you an alpha-male. And so on and so forth.

Have you EVER met a man who thinks that? I've NEVER met a man who thinks that sexual assault is cool. I've met a WHOLE LOT of men who think it's cool to sleep with a lot of women by lying to them, but never have a met a man who said to me "Yeah, got her pass out drunk and then f**ked her". That's so "not cool" in my circles that if a man said it, I have no doubt, I, or one of my friends would call the police to report the rape.

I'm sure it's because I'm a man, but I do not see a "rape culture", and I work in a 95% male (with a whole lot of "alpha male" behavior) environment and only socialize with men. I've never heard a man joke about rape, never heard a man say "let me wait for her to pass out and then have my way with her" and never heard a man condone rape in any way. Ever. In my entire life. All I've ever heard from men, in fact, is "I'd kill anyone who hurt my daughter/wife/family/friends" when referencing rape.

Is there a lot of date rape? Yes, it's grossly unreported, I've been date raped 100's of times because of being too drunk to consent. But is there a culture that condones physically harming women, pouring drinks into them until they pass out, assaulting them, forcing them to have sex for promotions? If there is, I've never seen it.

In my high school days it was MD 20/20

Careful, you're aging yourself.

If this is true, then there's something far more wrong about our society than a hashtag is going to fix. I was physically assaulted twice as a young man by women, and countless times in college I slept with women when I was too drunk to consent. Using the standards that prevail today, I'm in that 1-6 number many, many times over. But if those numbers are right, about 33% of men and 17% of women should be in jail for the rest of their lives. There's something wrong with that, just structurally, if you think about it. I can't put my finger on what it is, I really can't, but saying that 1-3 men and 1-6 women have committed a class A felony seems to scream to me that something is wrong. Are 33% of men rapists? That means that if you have 10 friends, 3 have raped someone.. Does that seem to make sense to you?

Not to veer too far into the weeds but to point out something with your numbers. Just because 1in3 women report being assaulted, does not mean 1in3 men do the assaulting; it is well known that men who do assault women (in general) do so repeatedly. That means that a SMALLER number of men do the attacking.

So, next time you hear someone say "most men" or "a lot of men," take that with a grain of salt.

Also, be careful of the term assault - it includes verbal threats/statements as well as butt grabbing. Not to say either are acceptable, but they aren't what most people think when they hear "assault" - they think rape/attempted rape.

Have you EVER met a man who thinks that? I've NEVER met a man who thinks that sexual assault is cool. I've met a WHOLE LOT of men who think it's cool to sleep with a lot of women by lying to them, but never have a met a man who said to me "Yeah, got her pass out drunk and then f**ked her". That's so "not cool" in my circles that if a man said it, I have no doubt, I, or one of my friends would call the police to report the rape.

Me either.

When the whole pussy grabbing statement came out and it was dismissed as "locker room talk," I was confused.

I've been in locker rooms my whole life - never heard anyone talk about or condone that shit.

Oh, and BTW. I was in a fraternity too. We didn't have gang rape parties either.