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Emotionless Infidelity Part 4

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sami1234 posted 7/18/2018 16:48 PM

"too bad it took all that horrible, violating, disgusting, exploitative, deceptive and just plain gross betrayal to now have this person." It's a person I can only enjoy to a certain extent.

Yes Marji exactly this ^^^^^ What I wouldn't have given to have this guy w/o the incredibly gross infidelity...now that would be something wouldn't it? Happy Anniversary?? Our MC said that people often ask her if there is life after infidelity, she tells them there is GOOD life after infidelity. I'd say good, but not that good. I'm still waiting to feel back in this, we are just friends but honestly for the first time in a long time I feel like we are good friends. That's something, right? I can't say ILY either and although I know he loves me and is very touchy with me sometimes I feel like screaming "do you have to touch me all the time??" then I wonder what is wrong with me. Ugh.

rebplay I get it. I try to mention things in a more compassionate manner than I used to. I am mindful of my tone and how hard he is trying. There are some things I'd like to discuss but I know I will not be compassionate and will say things in anger so I let them go...for now. Working with a new IC now who has more empathy and focuses on compassion more than the last one did. I actually like that approach and think it might be helpful going forward.

3chimom are you here? Wondering how you are doing today...hugs!!

Superesse posted 7/18/2018 19:20 PM

rebplay, you said something this morning that I just picked up on this evening, reading back...and this is so much a part of what is wrong with cheaters....and why we all get so gobsmacked.....you mentioned the idea that you thought if you were open and honest with him, naturally he would reciprocate. And that is because "normal people" do that! You reminded me that we learned about this in my psych coursework...reciprocity is advantageous to human survival (we all tend to do this, by instinct, if you prefer) and it is part of the social intimacy-building process we humans just know to DO. Except people with major problems, who for whatever reason, do not.

I felt the same way as you did, when I went into this marriage, OMG did I, ever. And what a fool I found out I was....

Marji, you said something I have said to him, many times: it isn't you who will turn your ankle, so you don't see it as a problem, no matter what I say. Same with his leaving hoses, cords and other trip hazards around the floor, when he is too lazy or distracted to bother to pick them up. Because WH is such a big guy, he would probably just bulldoze over them if he did get hung up, whereas anybody else (his elderly car owners, for example) could fall on the concrete, and get badly hurt. I pay the very expensive insurance on the building I own, and I am asking him to keep it safe for OTHERS. And right there is the problem. He cannot imagine others getting tangled up in his mess. (In my years as a construction manager, I fired guys for less than this, because my boss, the company owner, demanded I keep a safe work place.)

Hope your "day" turns out to be new and special!

burn, I hope you got to some calmer waters and some peace about the trip!

Hi, kaygem! So hope things are going better for you, lately.

Thinking of all of us here going through what we are going through.

burn posted 7/18/2018 20:19 PM

Me too on the wishing I could have this new and improved guy without all the disgusting crap it took to get here. Sometimes I wonder- and I hate this thought- that if he hadnt cheated on me so egregiously, things would never have gotten better. Like- if he had been faithful, our relationship would have declined until neither of us wanted to be together and nothing would have precipitated the massive changes he has been forced to make. I thought he had made so much progress....until the lie this week.

Things are calm here- I actually recovered emotionally from the blow up Saturday night pretty quickly. Still keeping some distance from WH while I figure things out. All the info I have is that is all there is to his lie. He didn't want to tell me his meeting was changed bc I would be upset with him for leaving a day early. I checked phone records and checked his texts. None deleted. Found the texts with the coworker about lunch where he mentions that his boss told him the date was wrong after he made reservations. WH showed me the itinerary with the town hall meeting at the other hotel I saw him at. He showed me a group photo with the male coworker with the gender neutral name. He keeps asking me what else he can show me to prove he isn't lying about anything else, but it doesn't matter if I read every work email he has, it still wouldn't prove he didn't take someone back to his hotel room at night. That's kind of the problem with lying- I cant trust him about anything. My gut doesn't say anything else happened. But I still have that gnawing fear that one day I will find out that it has been false R and he has been continuing to cheat on me. And I just cant make sense of why he would lie about this. At this point he should know that the lying is going to upset me WAY more than any change in travel plans. Not to mention...how stupid is he that he lies about his location when he knows that I can see exactly where he is? He never ceases to amaze me with his lack of insight and foresight.

rebplay posted 7/19/2018 10:00 AM

Burn- Iím glad thereís no evidence of anything, thatís something, but I agree thereís always a veil of distrust that never seems to lift. Itís not good he lied. Why do they think lies are better than the truth?

Marji- hang in there today. I think some level of grieving on anniversaryís is normal but Iím glad youíre managing fine and can enjoy dinner tomorrow.

To all- yes itís bitter sweet to enjoy the new situations. Funny, I didnít think my h needed to do too much changing before infidelity. He wasnít perfect but I thought things were pretty good. I really did. Over the early years heíd starting pitching in more equally then in the beginning where I did too much. Heíd already accomplished that before infidelity. He had slacked off in physical affection before infidelity but man he gave me zero physical affection during. It was awful. Iím not a huge physical affection person but I need some. Marji- itís funny you mentioned hand holding. Heíd stop doing that for the most part but on a little summer vacation, he actually
Held my hand walking. It was kinda awkward but he tried. Like you, I wonít reach to hold his hand like that. Like more than one of you,I still havenít said ILY since DDay. He has only mentioned that once, to my surprise, around our anniversary. Never knew if he really noticed or not. He said one of these days youíre going to love me again. I was very surprised. Like Marji and others I can say I appreciate what you do etc.

Super- I donít think the fog of infidelity ever lifts completely. Like Marji maybe you need to put a sign out. Concrete visual reminder. And if heíd hurt his foot, heíd probably change what heís doing. Iím not sure why he wonít respond to your reminders. If he does anything close to what you ask, give him positive praise. The positive attention/feedback maybe will help continue desired behaviors. No we shouldnít have to make a fuss but it helps, at least it has for me. My h loves when I say something about thank you for cooking it was really good or blah blah.

Itís so crazy. Infidelity and the after effects.

Superesse posted 7/19/2018 15:55 PM

rebplay, thanks for seconding Marji's creative suggestion about posting a sign (concrete for a concrete thinker, eh?). That sign would be posted right at the front corner of the shop, where his car owners show up to see their expensive beauties. (We are country, no sidewalks here.)

Just now, a car owner came to pick up his classic expensive collector car. I thought I had better stand where the dog had dug, so nobody would turn an ankle. I hate to think what a sign would signal them, like "Is this mechanic dumb, or what? Maybe he isn't worth what I pay him...."

An hour ago, I asked him to cut me a square hole in a quart size laundry detergent plastic jug. He is better at controlling a razor knife than I am. I want to use a small foam paint brush with weed killer to spot-treat poison ivy, without killing anything good out there. The jug will keep the chemical from spilling, I hope. I drew the brush outline on the jug where I wanted it cut. Just now, he handed me that jug, with a nice slot cut out of it. "Very nice," I told him. But then I noticed he hadn't cut it quite as wide as my marks had outlined. Hmmmm..... He explained "I wanted to preserve the corner of the jug, it will be stronger that way." I smiled at him and asked "You know why it was that wide? To fit the brush!" He goes into the kitchen to get the brush, then says "OK! It fits!" And....comes back with the brush in the bottle, after he CUT MY BRUSH DOWN to fit HIS-sized slot!!

Ladies. WTF???

Never marry an engineer?

, you said

He never ceases to amaze me with his lack of insight and foresight.

When did you first start noticing this in him? It's amazing, isn't it, how unperceptive some people can be. I hear what you are saying, 100%. Maybe he just really wanted to go out of town a day early, given the chance, and that is what he didn't want to say? Like it's going against the idea we should all want to spend every moment together with our spouses, even after this s#itstorm of betrayal, but maybe he just likes the travel time? Could it maybe be something that simple, that he couldn't "tell you"? Still, if that is true, it wasn't a trust-building move on his part, was it? Sorry.

sami1234 posted 7/19/2018 18:18 PM

burn sorry to hear about the travel issues.And then to think he lied...awful. You are right there is only so much that the tracker can show...like where the phone is. Lots of things can go on in the very hotel room he's supposed to be in. I think I've mentioned to you I have the same things with my WH. I'm really SO much better when he's in town, but when he's gone I become someone else. Angry, suspicious, thinking everything is just not right. It's really tough. He's gone this week and next week and I'm going a little loony myself.

This autism spectrum thing is interesting. Did a little research on that. I'm not sure about mine, although he has never been able to connect emotionally with the kids, or me really, never able to read emotional situations or express empathy for anyone in any difficult situation. A few years before Dday I told him the only emotion I ever saw from him was anger. He wasn't angry that much, but I never saw laughter, joy, fear, nothing would he allow himself but anger. And yes he treated me crappy during the PA's. Like the selfish child he was, and I made excuses for it.

Honesty, now there's a concept.

burn posted 7/19/2018 23:58 PM

Superesse- When did I first start noticing the lack of foresight/ insight? Only after Dday- before that I thought more that he was just a narcissist and a jerk. I never really tried to figure it out and I always tended to blame myself for his reactions. Now I see more that he cant predict outcomes and cant predict how people will react to him- and also that his lack of empathy makes it impossible to see how others feel or what other people need.

Sami- The anger was the only emotion my WH showed either. Not all the time, but when he was angry- it was scary. And never anything else, no fear, sadness, happiness. He still doens't show much else, sometimes sadness. Its not that he isnt animated when he talks, but there just isn't any meaningful emotion.

kaygem posted 7/20/2018 01:12 AM

This is a few post back but I have to say, I think about it almost every day...

And the irony is, that in some ways he is better partner--he is 200% more attentive--but even that can have cause a certain sadness ---a passing thought of "too bad it took all that horrible, violating, disgusting, exploitative, deceptive and just plain gross betrayal to now have this person." It's a person I can only enjoy to a certain extent.

It makes me so angry. I have said to him, "IF you had done even a fraction of this (attentive, kind, thoughtful) stuff before you decided to cheat...you would have HAD THE MARRIAGE AND INTIMACY YOU SO DESIRED!

Seriously, WTH are these cheating idiots thinking? Who gets intimacy from a whore or prostitute? That's what they really, deep down desire. Sigh...

Things are going okay. He's ever his 200% self and I am my post Dday 50% self.

I still feel shock, even after 16 months post Dday. Like an electrical shock, only it's emotional, when I look at him and his current 200% self. It's hard to imagine why or how he was at 5% for so long. WHY? WHY? When he claims such deep love and affection currently...

Anyway, most days are peaceful but the roller coaster still exists. Ride is not so crazy but it's still a ride.

Anyone ever hear from Orchid? I so wonder what happened to all the people we never hear from...

rebplay posted 7/20/2018 07:16 AM

Kaygem- the rollercoaster continues to get less crazy, thatís the good news. The sad news, I still look at my h sometimes and wonder who he is and why, but itís not as upsetting as it was. I try to remind myself to enjoy the good.

Super- that was interesting, he cut the brush to fit the hole. And he was proud of himself, he accomplished the task, his way, but he figured it out. Does sound kinda aspergerish. If the contraption will work as is, go ahead and positively reinforce him. Maybe put a piece of board over the hole? Like just a flat board that wonít stand out too much?

Ladies- I donít know if not showing emotion is all aspergerish and not part guyish. I think they are trained to suck it up and not show a lot of emotion as boys. Thatís just my opinion. For aspergerish I think more as itís their world and their perspective, not getting social cues/needs.

Superesse posted 7/20/2018 10:37 AM

rebplay, thanks for saying you can see the Asperger's element in my WH's behaviors, after I tried hard to find a real-life example of the kind of behaviors that hinder our "peaceful co-existence." (I don't consider us in R.)

Of course, the other half of that problem is me; I don't think I am a good "fit" for a man who always thinks his approach is "better than" whatever I might really want from him. I am not a "whatever" kinda person. He knows that about me. It would be easier if I truly were indifferent. With people who do not have a clue, he is in his element. They trust him to fix their one-of-a-kind cars, and he never lets them down, even if he has to make a replacement part for a car that was built in 1913. I hand him an empty plastic jug out of the recycle bin, after I size a hole for my brush, and I get my applicator brush back smaller, for the sake of a throw-away jug? I must be too difficult a "customer" for this guy!

I do give him positive reinforcement anyway, but I expect him to consider I usually have reasons for what I ask for. It amazes me how he always presumes I've screwed something up, and that whatever I express concern about, is frivolous.

It all goes back to R.E.S.P.E.C.T. It pains this man to respect any request made by someone he sees as "less than." And he has that going on with me, for whatever reason.

As newlyweds, our first disagreement was when I asked for help digging out a (smallish) tree root for a new garden I wanted to put in. I thought my manly hubby would be so happy to show me his physical strength, like many men would, right? But no! He seemed really annoyed to help me, even though he is a big, strong guy. "What's up with that?" I asked him. He said "Oh, this is just like my mother back home, she always asked me to do garden work!" He was annoyed! I had triggered his anger against that Mum of his.

So perhaps there is a clue as to where his quirky unwillingness to "go with the flow" might have come from....and could even be why he doesn't mind if I do get annoyed.

burn, I found it interesting how you, too, didn't notice your WH's lack of insight and ability to consider outcomes, until after D-Day. I look back over the years when I thought we were good, and wonder how I missed this about my WH, too. Today, my WH readily admits he has a blind spot in the planning and anticipating department.

For years, he wasn't sure where he wanted to live, he seemed to have no long-term goals, and was content to live week-to-week with his job and our relationship. In hindsight, that seems like a red flag I missed. I think I was in a similar place when we met, like we all can be when single, and so I told myself it was something that would resolve.

I am sorry that you always tended to blame yourself for his reactions! I think it is understandable that we want things to be good, and if we think the problem is "us," well, we can change that, but if "they" are the cause of our problems, we are helpless to change it. And that is scary.

Have you gotten any explanation(s) from him about his deliberate lie? Believe it or not, my WH used to think that a lie was only a spoken untruth; he apparently didn't "get" that there are very damaging lies of omission. So his choosing not to tell me a material fact wasn't what he considered a "lie." That concrete thinking of a young child, again. 🙁

Hope all are doing better! Hi, kaygem!

Maclou posted 7/20/2018 10:37 AM

Happy Thursday!
Question for you all.
My WH is in IC for 7 months. He likes the IC, says that she challenges him and I can definitely see many positive changes in his outlook and behaviour.

Iíve noticed however after some of his sessions, he seems to be a bit negative towards me. We donít discuss the intricacies of the sessions but I ask how it went and he gives me some generalities if he feels like discussing them.
So I said that I noticed this negativity and asked if it was coming from the therapist. He said no that maybe it was because she makes him question things and there might be some residual negativity from some of this. Fair enough.

So after this weekís session, I ask how it went and he said that she challenged him on the fact that he defends me a lot and that he seems to,think that Iím an angel (for those of you who donít know me, obviously this is true 🤣

Is it possible that sheís being devilís advocate to see what he does? Has she a negative picture of me from things heís said previously (I doubt it to be honest because I know he loves and admires me)? Has she decided that he can do better?

I donít often blow my own trumpet but I have handled the infidelity admirably and to the very best of my ability. I never name called. I can count how many time she I have raised my voice. Iíve comforted and supported him when the guilt was too much for him. Iíve worked hard, told no one (apart from my sister) to give us the best chance of making it and made no unreasonable demands.

What do I do with this? Any advice gratefully received.

I suggested some time ago that I meet her and she refused. I donít particularly want to meet her now because I feel like sheíd tear me apart. I know that she has no interest in whether our marriage makes it or not but weíre doing really well at the moment and I donít want her actively working against my marriage. Neither do I want him to stop seeing a therapist who knows him and is definitely helping him.

Superesse posted 7/20/2018 12:33 PM

Maclou, that is a hard one to give you feedback on, could be a lot of things. I'll try....

It is good that he can identify where his negativity is coming from, and maybe it is his response to the IC asking him the "why" questions. I don't know why she would not want to even meet you even just once. My WH's CSAT met with us both for his first appointment, and from what others here write, that isn't unusual.

In counselor training, a therapist is taught to guard against transferring their own emotions onto a client, just as a client can transfer feelings to the therapist. It is a very delicate balance, because for the therapy to be really beneficial, the client needs to believe the therapist "has their back." You can see where that could go too far, sometimes.

I hope he can sort through his negativity together with you at some stage, soon. It might just be he struggles to process Family of Origin stuff that has been brought up, which, in a perfect world, he shouldn't be "transferring" to you. However, my WH has done that with me, all our married life. (((Maclou)))

Could you research the therapist online for "reviews" from past clients?

Maclou posted 7/20/2018 13:18 PM

Thanks Supresse,
Iíll have a look for reviews but sheís in the same practice as our MC and came recommended by our MC.

There is definitely a lot of negativity around his FOO so thereís a possibility that may be part of the issue.
My major concern is what sheís saying that makes him need to defend me?? I asked him and he minimized it but surely if she wasnít having a go at me, he would have nothing to defend??

We had an argument last week because I told him that I felt threatened by her and he asked me not to challenge her because he finds her helpful and heís only in IC because I insisted on it.

Also, why would she have a problem with him seeing me as an angel?? She doesnít know me. Iíve spent my 40+ years on the planet putting others first. Iím loyal, honest, hard working, kind and loving. I may not be an angel but given what Iíve been through in the last year, I am not disappointed to be considered one by my WH but she seems to see this as a bad thing.

Iím angry and worried that this person that he trusts is influencing him negatively.

Hopefully Iím overreacting.

marji posted 7/20/2018 15:13 PM

Maclou I wish I had the knowledge and experience to help you with this situation; I would feel exactly like you do if my H came back with a negative anything at all from a therapy session. We want them to get help to be better partners, better human beings. We hope that whatever benefits they derive from going to counseling will be benefits that will also help us to feel safe; that their getting to be healthy, wholesome and honest human beings will help to rebuild some level of trust so it's only natural and normal that if their sessions result in their seeming negative and less loving those meeting will leave us feeling less safe.

My H sees a psychiatrist only periodically because he's on an antidepressant; but my H told me the doctor had no clue about 12 step programs for SA. My H is not technically an SA but is working a 12 step program and I found that doctor's ignorance and surprise very disconcerting. I was ok because he is not my H's therapist but I would not have been ok if he was. I probably would have asked him to seek someone more experienced and knowledgeable.

You're dealing with an entirely different situation. But again, the sessions should not feel like an extra burden, an additional source of pain for you. You're dealing with far too much already.

The fact that his IC will not meet with you is unusual and odd. It's actually very typical for ICs to meet with partners and spouses if the client agrees to such a meeting, It could be a joint meeting with your H present or simply between the two of you. Is this person someone trained in betrayal issues? Is this person a LCSW or Ph.d psychoanalyst? I wonder because her refusal seems to be unwise if not unprofessional.

Therapists should have their clients best interest at stake but they do not normally have strong, personal feelings about spouses or partners unless those partners have been abusive so it may be that this therapist has absolutely no negative feelings about you and is simply focuses on your H.

I guess I would have my H tell the therapist that he wants her to meet with you. Maybe he did not express the importance of such a meeting and of course, without your meeting with her, there's no way to really understand what is going on and how your H asked for such a meeting.

Your H's therapist should not be causing you more pain but all sorts of people become counselors and some are more helpful and sensitive and wise than others. We have no way of knowing what's going on with your H but I would try to have a meet up and straighten things out.

You can make clear to your H that you are not interested in challenging his IC but you do feel it important to meet with her and that such a meeting would help you to feel comfortable.

Superesse posted 7/20/2018 17:56 PM

Maclou, maybe your MC practice has a policy that IC's do not see couples, so as not to conflict with their MC? That might be why she said she couldn't meet you. I would ask the MC, however, out of meeting. Good luck with the reviews and feeling better about his work with her. (I think the male-female dynamic would intimidate me a bit if my WH were going through this kind of counseling.) The good news is you see improvement.

Maclou posted 7/21/2018 01:15 AM

Thanks Marji and Superesse,
Iíve looked the IC up again-we had checked her out initially but I couldnít remember the details. She also does MC so thatís not the issue. She told my WH that she felt talking to me was ethically dodgy and that sheíd never done it before,
She apparently is currently undertaking research related to infidelity.

At this point, I donít want to meet her. Iím very conflict avoidant (this past year has been a blast for me!). I grew up with blazing rows and constant stress and I hate confrontation. I am also very articulate but someone who needs time to think of a reply. My husband describes her as very challenging.

When I requested to meet her before, it was because my husband was hugely weighed down with guilt and I wasnít convinced that she was aware of the extent of it.

I think I might just have to suck this up and trust that my husband will continue to defend me.
Superesse, , she is a chartered psychologist.

marji posted 7/21/2018 08:38 AM

Hi MaclouHope you might be feeling a bit better today.

Surely there's no problem if you do not want to meet with her. Perhaps systems where you live are very different than here in the states where there would be no ethical problem in a counselor meeting with a family member; it's actually quite common. They may not agree to taking that other person as a client but just a meeting now and then is not considered unethical; in some cases it's considered helpful.

Good that she is doing research about infidelity so it sounds as though you are coming to peace with the situation. And of course it's very good that you are seeing positive changes in your H. Your situation sounds very positive.

Superesse posted 7/21/2018 09:34 AM

Maclou, I am not familiar with the term chartered psychologist, but had a couple of questions regarding your WH's therapy, based on what we went through in the year after D-Day 1. (Sad to say, my WH did no work with an IC, even though he was told he really needed it by our MC, so after 12 years in "limbo," he reverted to his acting out, and was arrested for it. I cannot say whether IC could have made a difference in my WH's brain. I can say that I never noticed positive changes that showed my WH had worked to overcome his deep-seated childhood issues.)

1. Does your WH's IC practice therapy from a "psychodynamic" model? It sort of sounds like she does, to me. Psychotherapists online here often advertise the approach they use.

There are many schools of therapy. "Psychodynamic" is the oldest model, going back to Sigmund Freud himself, and is not a short-term process. My counseling professor used the "psychodynamic approach" with troubled teens, and taught that for deep-seated early childhood wounds, such as sex abuse victimization, psychodynamic therapy is still considered the most effective therapy.

Many other therapeutic approaches also exist; some psychotherapists think that long-term "psychodynamic" therapy works best only when the client is motivated and mentally able to make changes once they get "insight" into their behaviors; why they did what they did and felt what they felt, etc. Other psychotherapists observe that "insight therapy" does not produce change in behavior all by itself, especially with addicted clients. So it isn't effective with every client.

You have said you see positive changes in your WH as a result of this therapy, so that is a good thing. But if his IC is using a "psychodynamic" approach, it is often like peeling the onion, one layer at a time, trying to acess the less conscious areas of the brain where trauma and emotional problems are "stored." Breaking through denial is like breaking through glacial ice, sometimes. Maybe his IC is using a kind of "devil's advocate" approach, to see if he can access his "whys" that made him decide it was okay to cheat, so long as you never found out.

You see, I have noticed here that so many of these EI men have given their betrayed wives the same answer, when asked why they chose to just go out and have sex with a hooker or ONS, if things were so wonderful at home: "I don't know...." (shaking their head in shame and confusion). They need to know why they did what they did, and discovering that is arduous for some. A healthy individual has control of their actions and makes decisions based on their values. A person who is "a house divided against itself" is not healthy enough to do that. The hope is that therapy will open some shut doors in their brain, and shed some light on the motive or motives for their basically illogical "double life" behaviors.

I could be totally wrong, but from what you have shared, I have a hunch that his "highly recommended" IC is trying to break through to something, by challenging him as you say she does.

But I still don't know why she couldn't at least greet you in the lobby with your WH there, that would certainly not fall into ethically dodgy territory. Maybe they have had some awkward experiences with spouses in the past.

2. How long does this negativity hang on after therapy, a couple hours? A day? The rest of the week?

It is difficult, and as Marji said, you should not need to suffer, in order for his therapy to work!

rebplay posted 7/21/2018 09:40 AM

Maclou- Iím sorry to hear the situation is stressing you. It shouldnít be. Not sure what advice to offer but I tell people to trust theyíre gut (too many times we dismiss it). If the situation continues to make you uncomfortable you may have to address it or at least meet her to put your mind at ease. Iím so sorry. Itís hard because you see progress but it shouldnít make you stress and worry either.

rebplay posted 7/21/2018 09:43 AM

Super- that was harsh he compared you with his mother early on when you asked him for help with a tree. That sounds like heís taking out issues on you. Not sure what to say. Some examples sound aspergish, others sound different. I can see why youíre stuck ďdiagnosingĒ him.

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