One of the most important part of Shark's question might have more to do with what happens with your wife. Will you want to leave her when your son leaves? Is he the only thing keeping you together? Now, I actually think your current relationship is somewhat sustainable. Maybe not great, but comfortable.
I don't know if I want to end the marriage after our son leaves home or not. I do have this idea that the marriage is salvageable, and I think I'm still processing the hurt and anger right now. I may just process things differently than most. All I can tell you is what I'm feeling now and that is "ambivalent acceptance". Like I have said, I do still enjoy my wife's company and companionship, but I'm just not feeling husbandly love towards her.
My reason for summarizing what you'd said in the past was to encourage you to remind your wife of that any time she gets upset (which you indicated was every few weeks). That is simply the best you can give her now . . . perhaps the best you can give ever. She may hope for more, but it doesn't help the family or relationship if she 'plans' on it getting better. So . . . She gets upset. Remind her where you are. It may not get better. Can she live with that? If so, deal with the relationship, which may be much more 'family' than 'spouse' oriented, as it is. If not, decide what other options you both can take . . .Lather, rinse, repeat . . . any time things get to her.
This is almost exactly what I tell her. And I have told this repeatedly. I have let her know that there are no more promises. I cannot promise anything anymore. I cannot control her and she cannot control me. If she leaves I will not try to stop her, and I told her I cannot promise things will ever be the same as they were before her affair because I just don't see how that can happen.
research affair recovery online.
there are several out there.
good luck.
I will. Thank you.
I
find a similar thread in a few posts that really him home with me. It's a little unsettling. I did not get married to live like this. It is a marriage purgatory for both spouses.
1.) Not able to forgive just yet.
2.) sex with out the prior connection
3.) Unsure if you want to stay in the marriage
4.) But we like hanging with the spouse
5.) Treat them nice but not with prior adoration
I have actually changed very little in my treatment and attitude towards my wife. Only in the emotional area is it really that much different. I provide her with a comfortable life, she has hobbies and friends she enjoys, we still go on trips and have fun dates. Nothing really has changed except that I don't go out of my way to be overly affectionate or available anymore. I certainly do not worship her anymore like I used to. I think she resents that she lost her perch up there on that pillar she used to be on.
I hate marriage counselors who blame the betrayed. I refuse to ever go to counseling as a result.
You are trying to do your best but you need a long term plan. You are spinning your wheels
That's why I'm here. And I agree with you about marriage counselors.
My response to her was that my love for her must not have been worth anything since she decided to cheat on me. Why should it be worth anything now,
Exactly. Why now? Why not before?
I feel for you and wish you the strength to heal and the peace that comes with healing
Thank you very much. I'm glad somebody gets it.
Most of the posters have been commenting upon how LWP feels about his wife and whether the M is sustainable or not based upon that.
What really, really struck me is what he said about the sex now. He said that she seems to like it more now that it is less emotional. I grant that this is through _his_ filters _but_ that should be considered, too.
The oddest truth that I have learned from this whole experience is that my wife does not equate sex with love, whereas I do. Well, I used to anyways. Now it is more like college sex. It's fun and quantitatively better, but not really loving. She gets off, I get off, but I'm just using her for my pleasure and not to bond emotionally.
First assumption of mine: It is not inconceivable that people want two mutually exclusive things - hence, sometimes, why cheaters lie.
I can agree with this.
Second assumption of mine: His reporting of the situation is accurate, she does like this form of sexual intimacy better when one considers only that point, not the commitment.
I am reporting a fact. I am not telling people this stuff to anger them or make myself look like a guy who keeps my wife around as a sex toy. I'm reporting the truth. When I just kind of use her and toss her around the bed and not concentrate so much on pleasing her, she actually seems to like it better.
Third assumption of mine: She actually does miss the emotional closeness out of the bedroom.
This I disagree with. It is the emotional connection outside the bedroom she says she misses: the way I used to kiss her on the back of her neck in the mornings, the "I love you's" throughout the day, the frequent hugs, etc. Those are few and far anymore because I just don't feel it.
One possible conclusion from the assumptions is that she has done absolutely no work on herself and actually does desire those two things -and- that those two things, emotionless, controlled/controlling (? word. Help me find one.) sex and loving H out of the bedroom are, down deep, incompatible in a healthy M.
LWP, what has _she_ done to work on herself, attitudes, and expectations after her A? IC? Reading and introspective reflection? Nothing? Can you sit her down and talk about this with her? Can you think about it objectively and decide whether you, too, see two conflicting desires from her?
She goes to IC twice a month, but honestly I do not know what they talk about. I have not seen any real changes in her, other than she cries a lot more and is really down on herself. I think she feels guilty and stupid for the way she let her affair partner use her and then just toss her away. She is embarrassed when it comes to family and friends who know what she did. But as for changing her core behaviors? I haven't seen much.
I will be the first to say that there can be a mix of sexual experiences in a marriage - either partner should and should be able to approach the other and say, "Hubba hubba!" and make the other's body their playground. Each should also be able to approach the other with romance and playfulness, too.
I never thought this way before. I always thought it was my job to give her maximum pleasure for as long as possible and then at the end get off myself. Now there are times when I just get my rocks off and don't care if she enjoys it or not. Weirdly, she seems to like that. I guess maybe because she doesn't feel any pressure to orgasm like she used to.
Did she give you a full time line of her affair?
how did she meet this guy?
Yes she did give me a timeline. They met at church.
After D-day did she go NC with the OM?
She says she did. I cannot know for sure as I asked her to leave and she moved out.
did she meet up with him after D-day or during D-day to be his nurse?
As per the previous question, I do not know. She told me no.
did she get tested for stds
Yes. All clear.
Why did she think it was okay to have him in your house and in your bed? that shows extreme resentment and disrespect for you.
She told me she was not thinking at all. Her description is that she was not thinking of me or our son at all when she did these things. I believe she totally separated her home life from her affair, both mentally and emotionally. I never factored at all into her thinking process, and she has been very apologetic about this. She and I have gone round and round about it. I still don't get how a person can do that. And yes, the disrespect part is a huge thing for me, but ultimately she did not respect herself, and I have told her that her lack of self respect has nothing to do with me, because before all of this I treated her with upmost respect and love.
when did she have her last contact with the OM?
The day after D-day she says she called him and told him not to contact her anymore. I don't know if it is true or not. I wasn't there.
she called the cops on D-day. When did she stop protecting the OM and start protecting you?
She called the cops to keep me from killing him, which I might have done had he not run off down the street and hidden like a little bitch.
has she exposed the OM to his wife?
No, but I did a while later.
Was this her only rodeo?
Good question. With me, I think so yes. With her prior relationship I think she probably cheated on him too, although she denies it. I wouldn't put it past her.
if she has not given you the full truth, and she does love him, how can you even forgive what you do not know? when did she supposedly stop loving him?
I think she has given me the full truth. As for loving him? She says that she got caught up in the affair, but that any feelings she had dissipated on D-Day. But what you ask me is impossible to answer, because cheaters lie about everything. I take nothing she tells me at face value anymore. That is another thing that bothers her.
If you had the A, would she be able to forgive you? if not why should you forgive her?
I've never asked her that. I think I will.
I am one that drinks poison from the hate and rage, hoping that she and the OM die from me drinking the poison.
if you do not feel that anymore, (which it seems like you do not) you do not need to bother forgiving. what has she really done to deserve it, and how has the OM suffered?
I felt he way you did for a long time, and then it just stopped. I cannot explain it. I am starting IC next week and hope to get an answer.
She hasn't done anything to NOT deserve forgiveness. Since we got back together she has been a model wife. She dotes on me. She doesn't evade talking about the affair, and for the ,ost part I believe she has been 99% honest. I really do not think she is hiding anymore. But who knows?
As for the OM, I don't know what has happened to him. don't care. My wife is the one her broke her promise to me, not him.
With IC, it can be important to find one that meshes with your world view. It can take a few tries to find one that works well for you or to develop.
The person I'm going to next week comes highly regarded. She was referred to me by a friend who lost his wife and was having a hard time with the grief process and he says this lady did wonders for him.
For me, forgiveness is about letting go of the anger and resentment. I really don't care if STBXWW wants to be forgiven or not. I'm simply not going to hold onto the anger and the inevitable hate, resentment and bitterness that comes with it. Mayo Clinic even has a page about forgiveness and health benefits. Forgetting or hiding the A, is not a component of forgiveness. Healing significant trauma still leaves scars.
With regards to the forgiveness and debt analogy, the debt may be forgiven in bankruptcy, but your credit score is still destroyed. It doesn't remove the forgiven accounts from your credit report any time soon either. It takes years for those things to clear and rebuild credit (trust).
Good advice and spot on. Thank you.
Story sounds horribly normal enough. The A was a deal breaker, but you're holding things together for now. It won't ever be what it was. Some things will always be different. That may or may not be okay long term. Things can slowly change after a couple years in R, and you will probably find yourself in a different place in time--either more in or more out, not just the living limbo you're in now.
This is what I am expecting, which is why I am not jumping to divorce right now. I already took her to the brink of divorce and it just about destroyed her. She knows I won't hesitate.
This is the first I've read on your thread 'LivingWithPain'. I haven't read all of the commenters but I have read yours and I believe you to be on the right path. Your experience and state of mind are very similar to what I've arrived at though it took me over two years to get where you are. I believe it to be the correct response to the situation.
It is a bag of joy isn't it?
"...she seems to like it more this way, when I'm dominant. Does that make sense?"
Yes. It makes perfect sense. You said it yourself that it's likely what she enjoyed about the affair. There are those women who enjoy being treated this way. There's a psychology behind it, but you nailed it and it's not destructive when it's in a monogamous setting.
All she had to do was let me know she wanted to be dominated and I would have. I never performed this way before the affair, but then she was never complaining back then. It is really sad that it had to take an affair for her to know that she could be that way with me. If she had told me back when we were dating that she like being dominated, I would have gone for it with gusto. I am not a prude. Not one bit. In fact before I met her I did some things that most people would consider pretty wild and outside the norm. I am very sexually adventurous. She knew this but just never felt comfortable telling me what she wanted. But most women expect men to read their minds don't they?
"I am considering going to counseling for myself."
This is unnecessary. You're listening too much to the posters on this thread. I'm amazed at how many people immediately jump to therapy like it's a silver bullet when all that's needed is to put your big-boy pants on. Therapy is only for those who need help getting their bb pants on and you're not one of them. You've already put them on.
It is not that kind of counseling. I'm not codependent or anything like that. But I am shell-shocked I think. This particular therapist specializes in PTSD and grief counseling.
"My response to her was that my love for her must not have been worth anything since she decided to cheat on me. Why should it be worth anything now, and why should she value my trust in her now more than all the other things I provide her with? She took my love and trust for granted, to the point where she stomped on them."
Amazingly, she sees your actions as more loving now than she's ever noticed them to be. In her eye's you've become strong, logical, decisive, and caring. She's not payed attention to this side of you before and she likes it. By having the rose-colored-glasses slapped off of your face, you've become outwardly what she wants in a man. Don't change it.
Yeah it is weird how it works that way isn't it? We have sort of changed 180 degree positions from the way it was before. Before her affair I was the pursuer, the chaser, and I was the one who stoked the affection fire. Now she is doing most of the work because, from where I stand, the ball is in her court now. I used to be Edith and she was Archie. Now I'm the smartass fat guy in the chair calling the shots, and she seems to respond better to it.
I imagine the feminists on SI are going to roast me for that.
smokenfire - "You are modeling for him what love is, and therefore he will pick a dysfunctional mate and he himself will be dysfunctional."
This would be true if you were behaving badly and treating his mother badly in front of him, or if his mother was walking around seething. At this point his mother is happy to be back in your bed and you are modeling what it is to be a real man; teaching him that responsibility isn't some fuzzy idea but a concrete action. You're teaching him respectful strength.
My son and I have talked a lot. He knows what his mom did and he was very disgusted and angry with her for a long time. He even came to me early on and told me that I should divorce his mom, but that he wanted to stay living with me. When my wife and I got back together we sent him to counseling once a week for six months and the guy he went to did a good job with helping him sort a lot of things out. But he still has a lot of resentment towards her, and not just for her affair. The two of them have a very complex and unusual mother-son relationship. I have no time to go into details. It would take up a thread of its own.
If you're account is accurate, then I'd say that you're doing better than most who've been through what you've been through. Don't be afraid of your feelings or lack thereof. They aren't destructive. I've spent a lot of time evaluating myself and have come to the conclusion that I'm a better person after traversing the carnage than I ever was before. Don't doubt yourself, you're better too.
I hope that when I go to my counseling, she will help me sort this stuff out. Right now I do not feel strong. Not at all. In fact lately I have been feeling more emotionally on edge the past month than I have for a long time. Something is changing in me, like a see-saw that is getting ready to tip one way or another. I just don't know which way I'm going to tip.
My wife recently asked me if I love her. I didn't answer right away. The truth is that I'm having to reevaluate just what love means to me, which is what I eventually told her.
My love my wife. That is, I know there is love there, somewhere. It's not like what it was years ago. Not even close. But there's a bond there that just won't break, which sorts of makes me wonder if there's something wrong with me. How could I possibly love someone who broke my heart? (and then threw in a blender and hit frappe!)
You and I are twins. I feel this exactly.
I suppose there's a reason why people say that it takes two-five years to reconcile from infidelity and heal ourselves and the marriage. We're about two and a half years out, so I suppose we've got a while longer to go.
Same here.
So far, I don't regret my decision to stay and offer my wife an opportunity to reconcile and try to make this right, try to rebuild our marriage, and all that jazz. But I wonder, sometimes, if I'm settling, and that's a hard question to answer.
Yep. Same here. I still enjoy 95% of the relationship we had before, and in some ways it is better. But that 5% is what she is wanting from me, and I cannot give it to her right now.
ETA: Regarding forgiveness... well, at best, I can forgive people for being human. I'm not so sure I'll ever be able to forgive her for what she did, how I found out, and what happened in the next couple of months (more lies and lots of blame-shifting). In fact, I think I asked her, in those first few days, if she could live with that. At the time, she said she would, if she had to. Personally, I'm not so sure she will.
This is creepy. It's like I am posting to myself. This is pretty much spot on what is happening with us. And here I was thinking I was something unusual.
[This message edited by LivingWithPain at 10:56 AM, September 21st (Thursday)]
