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So, aside from re-establishing a mental and emotional relationship, your husband is weighing the long term historical evidence, and if you are being currently honest,... A relationship with you for all intensive purposes is a platonic friendship. Not much hope for him that the woman he is with has any real sexual interests or drive. Without a significant change in your internal outlook or monologue, your relationship is likely to return back to a predominantly sexless marriage. It is fairly apparent that your husband wants and desires more than that.

The additional painful knowledge that you were trading and giving away the physical intimacy he desired, missed, and craved. Even if a person wants and desires to be intimate with someone...the thought that the other person doesn't have the same desires and wants can stay the the soft touch and leave a heart heavy and depressed. Even while in the middle of a nice friendly conversation, sometimes the smile is faux and the heart is lonely and depressed in the heavy frustration that attacks the heart and mind when in a one sided sexless marriage.

[This message edited by QuietDan at 3:58 PM, October 31st (Tuesday)]

I didn't think that was abbreviated at all.

If I never had sex again (provided the feelings of desire were still there), I don't think that would bother me. I clearly have a sexual dysfunction, though that's towards the bottom of my list of issues to work on at the moment.

I'll suggest that you bring this up with your BH if you get the opportunity. I would imagine that you are on completely different wavelengths in this way. I get that you have bigger fish to fry, and that's probably a good thing.

I don't mean to derail the work you are doing. I do think that this is an important aspect of your reconciliation. You say you exchanged sex for validation. Conceivably you knew the damage that it would cause, as you know now if it happened again. What will prevent you from doing it the next time?

The reason that I ask is because I would guess that desire for your BH is likely important to him, and he's going to ask himself if your reason for wanting to continue a sexual relationship with him isn't just to keep him around. Based on evidence, (as QuietDan pointed out very well) it's a good question to ask.

If I am going outside of the scope of what you'd like to discuss here, let me know. I truly just want to help, and the best way I can do that is to tell you what it was like for me.

CSCE - My heart sank when I was reading your response to Xhz700. I am a few more months out from D-day than you and your husband are. The reason my heart sank was that I felt I could have been reading something my wife posted. I know she feels the same as you when you stated, "If I never had sex again (provided the feelings of desire were still there), I don't think that would bother me." My wife has said basically the same to me - Pre-A and Post-Dday.

After playing the "pick me dance" for a few months after D-day, the fog has been clearing. I have some new-found respect for myself. I am not going to be a doormat anymore. My needs are just as valid as WW's, maybe more now - especially when it comes to sex. Pre-Dday, I had trained myself to not desire sex or at least initiate it. I internalized that it was just how the rest of my life was going to play out. I have 2 wonderful adult-aged sons and I was going to "ride out" my relationship with their mother because of my personal views on the unacceptability of divorce and keeping the family unit together. ENTER THE AFFAIR. I have come to the realization that it wasn't that my wife didn't want to have sex. It was that she didn't want to have sex with me. Her A proved that to me. This may be the same thought process that your H is going through. Sex is incredibly important to me. It is the difference between having a wife and having a roommate. I don't need a roommate.

The sad part about your post is the realization that has become more apparent to me - R is not going to be an option for me. I have a family Christmas trip planned with my wife and boys. It will probably be our last together. I have plans to serve my wife divorce papers in January.

My wife hit a reset button in our relationship with her affair. She showed me our marriage vows were meaningless. All bets are off now. I got a get-out-of-jail-free card. I wish we could R, but I am not going to live out the rest of my life in a sexless relationship (yes, it is that important to me).

You have been completely opposite of my wife in your actions of showing remorse to your H (my WW hasn't uttered so much as an, "I'm sorry."), you have been working hard on yourself (Kudos by the way!) and you have shown your H that you truly want the relationship.

I hope you will take to heart what Xhz700 and QuietDan have been saying. If your H is anything remotely like me, this sex issue is HUGE. It consumes his thoughts - You with another man. And your H wondering, "Why the hell not me?"

I'm pulling for you and your H, CSCE! I would love to see you guys R!

ETA: I am only posting my story to illustrate what your H may be processing. I could be way off base, too!

[This message edited by HoplesslyBlind at 5:18 PM, October 31st (Tuesday)]

Aww crap here I am triggering.

I'm going to reconfirm what the other BH's have said. The sex thing is huge. She was my first, I too eventually stopped trying (physically and emotionally), and D was my plan the instant I found out she had given herself to another.

Then again she is a narcissist that would never admit any fault, and you are the opposite of that.

I wish you could just get him drunk and 'jump'himstart things.

However it turns out it will be ok. Believe that.

^^^^This^^^^^

I TOTALLY disagree that your sexual problems should be at the bottom of your counseling

That is a huge revelation. And, a problem. Sex is a cornerstone in all relationships. Notwithstanding any physical limits.

You have to confront this and explore it in IC. This is not a “no big deal.” It’s really big.

Your sexual trigger may be desire, but it can’t be only desire only in a marriage. It’s not realistic, nor will that last a lifetime.

Start working on that. It’s bigger than you understand right now.

[This message edited by Greeneyesbluezy at 9:54 PM, October 31st (Tuesday)]

Ok, here we go:

First of all, let me state that I know my sexual situation is a problem. I've suspected something was "broken" in me in that regard for quite awhile, but (as with so many things) was afraid to say anything.

As I am coming to understand myself better, I suspect it has a root cause in the same feelings of worthlessness and insecurity that permeate basically everything I do. I am coming to terms with the fact that it could also be physiological. All that is to say: Please don't misunderstand me and think that I simply don't desire BH. This is bigger than that.

To maybe oversimplify - I don't actively want sex because I have spent so much of my life not actively wanting anything for me. I think I touched on that a few pages back. I don't know how. It's honestly really, really scary to realize that about yourself.

Like, any time BH would want to focus only on me in the bedroom it would make me incredibly uncomfortable. I'd be terrified that I would take too long, or not at at all - I was worried how that would make him feel - I'd try to change things back to him as quickly as possible, to alleviate the anxiety. I didn't feel I was worth it, and so couldn't really enjoy anything. I also had no idea what I wanted, and didn't know how to be vulnerable enough to find out - not even with myself, let alone someone else.

QuietDan -

Not much hope for him that the woman he is with has any real sexual interests or drive.

I'm trying not to take offense, but this statement really bothers me. I'm a person, too, and I have to deal with this one way or another for the rest of my life. The impression I get from this statement is that he should cut and run because I'm not "functional", and that's hurtful. I want and desire more than a "predominantly sexless marriage". I want to have normal needs and drives. I recognize that my current state isn't healthy and that it's hurting my relationship.

To add to that, I should mention that I did have some wants and desires for intimacy - they were just of the verbal kind. That's not an excuse, and I don't mean for it to be anything close. I didn't articulate it to BH other than my request that he "tell me something nice" every couple of months or so. My point is that BH and I both failed each other in regards to intimacy, because neither of us were comfortable asserting ourselves. Instead, we tried to deal with it on our own, which only pulled us further apart. I understand that the gender gap is huge on this issue, but that other stuff matters, too.

xhz700 -

You say you exchanged sex for validation. Conceivably you knew the damage that it would cause, as you know now if it happened again. What will prevent you from doing it the next time?

I have an unhealthy reliance on external validation. It's actually a miracle that BH and I got together, considering how little of it he gives. You'd think I would end up with someone who is very demonstrative, buying flowers and telling me how I'm amazing...not so in the least. It makes me think that things got worse after moving away from my friends and family, who were likely major sources of it.

Anyway, I digress. The way I see it, I have only a couple of options:

Put myself in a situation where I get more validation (by appropriate sources)

Become less "addicted" to validation in general

Become better able to validate myself so I am less susceptible to inappropriate sources of it

Or become a hermit and never speak to anyone again

My plan is a combination of all but the last. In order of easiest to hardest: I need to build up my support network and share my needs and vulnerabilities with those who won't take advantage of them. I have to wean myself off of the need to hear that I am worthwhile and valued. I need to develop an ability to internally validate (which will help to strengthen my integrity, as well). If I can make measurable progress on each of those, I think I will be in good shape. How to do so...well, that I'm still working on.

HoplesslyBlind - You are absolutely right that your needs are valid, and I'm sorry you were made to feel that they weren't. I'm very sorry I made my BH feel his weren't, either.

I have come to the realization that it wasn't that my wife didn't want to have sex. It was that she didn't want to have sex with me. Her A proved that to me.

I don't know your wife, but there is the possibility that the A sex wasn't what she was after, but something she was willing to trade. I can't speak for her, and I won't attempt to. If she hasn't even said sorry then I don't have any interest in defending her - even simply to play devil's advocate. But just know that it might not be quite as simple as that. In any case, I really am so sorry.

I'm sure the sex is a huge issue for BH. The insecurity must be just terrible - feeling that I didn't want him, that he must not have been good enough, that I faked it, that he's no longer my one and only...on top of the betrayal of it all! I can only imagine. I am worried that performance concerns will follow him to his next relationship, and what a curse that would be to put on him. I'm his only point of reference, after all - god, it's just awful. Sorry, I'm derailing a bit.

Thank you for your moral support and can use all of it I can get, so keep it coming! Honestly, though, I really do appreciate it.

antlered - I'm so sorry! I hate to hear that I've triggered anyone, especially someone who has taken the time and effort to try to help me navigate this mess I caused like you have.

Unfortunately, BH doesn't drink, so I'd have to scrap any plan that involves inebriation. The closest I could manage would maybe be a sugar coma, from an overdose of pie.

I keep telling myself it will be ok. Some days I have an easier time believing it than others.

Oof! I can partially understand why your BH is acting the way he is.

Am not trying to aggravate you, but I just read in the General section under the thread of 'What's the most hurtful thing your wayward has said after dday?', and he made a comment there.

I think in your zeal to be as authentic as possible (very commendable), it became a bit too authentic.

Sorry, but I am guessing that he is bordering on apathy at the moment, and has compartmentalized his emotions to you. His not touching you is possibly a part of that, and is working his way to being independent of you for any emotional needs.

I do not say this to hurt you (but am sure it will), if your BH is anything like me, this waiting is merely a delay of the inevitable. The decision was made on your D-Day, and he is only prolonging it because of 'respect'(?) to you, as you 'deserve' some time to get used to the idea of D.

Respectfully, Rocket Raccoon... CSCS and LJ have an agreement not to read one another's threads so that both can share freely. Although he might have made this comment in a totally different thread so it might not technically apply (and understanding that either of them could come across one another's comments on other threads accidentally), I doubt they want other SI members to give "reports" to them on what one another is posting.

I don't intend this to come off in a manner that is snarky or impolite. I just think it best to refrain from making such references in future posts so that we can help honor the agreement they have made with one another and allow both to be able to post on SI without feeling monitored or censored.

CSCE, although I have read your entire thread, I'm not in any position to give advice to anyone. I still have a lot to learn myself; a WHOLE lot.

That said, I wanted to commend you for deciding not to try to manipulate or coerce your BH into bed. I realize the posters meant well and that they are hoping for you and your husband to find a way to connect in an intimate manner. I'm not discounting their perspective, but I share your concern that if something sexual was to happen in a manner that he does not perceive to be authentic and organic in its origin, it may backfire.

One of the ways I have tried to act in a loving manner toward my husband in recent months has been to take greater effort in my physical appearance. Outside of work, I am very much a t shirt, sweats, no makeup, flip flops, and ponytail girl, especially around the house. My husband through the years has remarked about how I have a great figure and I hide it all the time, and how much he loves to see my hair down (which it almost never is). So I have bought a few outfits that are casual enough to wear around the house and appropriate but are more revealing of my figure (tighter, more plunging necklines), and I have made an effort to wear my hair down frequently and to put on a little colorful lip gloss and some mascara just to look a little more lively.

He noticed. He noticed a lot. And has become aroused. But seems to be bothered by the fact that he still wants me. Almost like he hates himself for being drawn to me and finding me attractive. Like it has made it even harder for him because he has feelings of being angry at me yet also desperately wanting me.

I have since gone back to my sweats and ponytails. I don't want to make things harder for him than they already are. I want any sex to happen naturally and for him to feel like it was fully his choice and not like I tempted him when he didn't want to be tempted.

Not sure if I'm expressing myself well, but hopefully you get the point. Just my $0.02. Might not apply to you, but it also might apply; idk.

tried to quote from ASoCalled life.

"Respectfully, Rocket Raccoon... CSCS and LJ have an agreement not to read one another's threads so that both can share freely. Although he might have made this comment in a totally different thread so it might not technically apply (and understanding that either of them could come across one another's comments on other threads accidentally), I doubt they want other SI members to give "reports" to them on what one another is posting.

I don't intend this to come off in a manner that is snarky or impolite. I just think it best to refrain from making such references in future posts so that we can help honor the agreement they have made with one another and allow both to be able to post on SI without feeling monitored or censored."

You are correct that they do not want to know what each other are saying.

[This message edited by harrybrown at 4:34 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

RocketRacoon, Harry Brown

CSCE knows what she has said and done, in what way do you think your 2 posts help her.

CSCE:

Actually, it is no surprise to me that you picked someone who gives you little validation. I would have to assume that your FOO included little validation, which is the source of you seeking it out. As strange as it may sound, there is comfort in what we know, even if it is not healthy.

So you sought out a man that felt comfortable. You married him. You felt the same chasm as in your FOO.

Enter the OM, who provides you water while you are in the proverbial desert. It all makes sense.

Understand that this in no way vindicates you or excuses your choices. You chose your husband. You chose your AP. You chose the affair. But your choices, in a sick way, make sense.

FTR, validation is normally the problem in probably 90% of waywards.

This is where I again come back to you seeing that (once you heal and are emotionally healthy) your marriage is probably not good for either your or your husband.

One more thing. I am going to echo the previous posters in saying to you that the sex thing is HUGE. Even if everything else were to reach some semblance of satisfactory conclusion, I do not believe this can be overcome for your BH.

Sorry, CSCE.

The last few pages discussing the sexual disfunction of your marriage is very revealing. It may be more important than you think.

It is understandable that your husband quit initiating after being rejected time after time. Who wants to continue to be hurt time after time?

You both had/have communication problems.

I am concerned that your husband is a "once betrayed, I am done" kind of guy. The length of your affair and the accompanying lies and deception is a lot for any man to get over and maintain any self respect.

If you have not done so, I suggest that you set aside a week end with your husband and discuss this sexual disfunction (his and yours) honestly. Examine the years leading up to the affair. Examine what you have learned about yourself since starting this period of self examination.

Imagine every time you lay down to sleep that you dream of your husband having sex with another woman. Imagine that every time during the day when your mind relaxes a little that the image of you husband kissing another woman in a bed suddenly pops into your head. Fun, right? Imagine never being able to relax or sleep without these imagines invading your mind and causing the pain and anguish of betrayal to return.

Now imagine this other woman is known to you and not some faceless female. Now you have an inkling of what has been happening to your husband since he found out.

And believe me it does not stop for a long, long time.

I do not say this to make you feel bad. I am hoping that you understand that I am saying 4 months is not that long when it comes to thinking straight and reaching a point to make an objective decision about a marriage. I guarantee that your husband is still seeing you and your AP together every time he closes his eyes and it is upsetting. The pain of these "mind movies" should be fading a little as he gets somewhat used to and expects to be seeing them, but the memory will take a lot longer than 4 month to begin to fade.

I think in two months he will decide on D. If you want to try to keep him, tell him you understand and will go along with his decision but let him know that you are not giving up on him nor yourself nor the marriage.

What I am saying is that it will take him a lot longer that 6 months to get the images out of his head or get to a point where the image of you and your AP does not hurt him so much. At that point he may be open to your approach.

How long should you wait for that chance? At least 1 year after DDay. Probably closer to two.

Do you want him back enough to endure that?

For some others

The sex is the HUGE dealbreaker. might as well face the truth.

Respectfully, you do not get to decide what is a deal-breaker for CSCE's BH, he does. Insofar as they are still living together, in limbo or not, for the purposes of this thread we should be supporting her in her wishes to reconcile.

It is not your job or anyone's to soften her fall, or start her getting used to the idea of divorce.

I hesitated to touch on this subject, because its hard, and difficult to reconcile. But there is a HUGE difference between trying to nudge her toward the idea that the sex/desire component is a bigger deal than she might realize, and saying it's a deal-breaker and she might as well give up.

For CSCE

The best way I can try to make you understand, this isn't easy... Keep in mind that I don't know you, and these are just thoughts extrapolated from my observations and experiences.

You are looking at the breakdown of your intimate relationship with your BH and the circumstances of your affair as exceptions in your life. As one-off mistakes, or errors in judgment. You are counting on your BH to see it the same way in order to agree to reconcile.

Respectfully, that isn't the truth. I can't imagine how difficult it is to try to accept things like this about yourself, but the truth is likely that you married your BH because he's stable, and you needed stability. You pursued the relationship with the OM because you needed to feel desired. Quite simply, you didn't have everything that you needed in your marriage, so you got it elsewhere. Something fundamental is missing here.

I'm trying not to take offense, but this statement really bothers me. I'm a person, too, and I have to deal with this one way or another for the rest of my life. The impression I get from this statement is that he should cut and run because I'm not "functional", and that's hurtful. I want and desire more than a "predominantly sexless marriage". I want to have normal needs and drives. I recognize that my current state isn't healthy and that it's hurting my relationship.

Yes, you are a person too. Yes, you have to deal with this. The difference in this equation is that this is not a forum for dead bedrooms, where you'd ask for advice on reactive sex-drive, libido, or love languages. You had an affair, which sets every other marital issue you were having on fire. You withheld what is probably one of (if not) the most important ways to connect from your BH, and gave it to someone else. While it's hurtful to hear, what QuietDan said is valid in that your BH is likely weighing the very same variables.

I would not, under any circumstance, bring up your lack of libido, or your BH's withdrawal of affection, for a very long time. And I'd NEVER bring it up in the context of your affair.

Say you made a pie for me and offered it to me, and I said no thanks. You ask why, and I say I am not hungry. You then find out that I went and ate pie elsewhere. You'd be wondering, what is wrong with my pie? He clearly wants pie, just not mine. Now multiply this pie situation by about a million.

What would I need to do to convince you that it wasn't anything wrong with your pie? Clearly XHZ700 is hungry. What could I say? More importantly, how would you react if my other pie source dried up and I came back to you afterward, telling you that your pie was the only pie for me, and I made a mistake.

Here's the icky part. Sadly, there isn't anything I can do or say. There is no reasonable explanation other than I wanted the other pie more than I wanted yours. And, when you are caught in the affair, there is no way to frame it other than for me to admit that I really wanted all of the pie, but since I can't have it, I'll settle for you. If you think it's sad to think about it that way, try living it.

It's truly and profoundly the most painful experience I have ever gone through, and it has changed me, and my relationships with everyone around me, permanently.

As much as it might hurt to hear, this is likely a pretty good approximation of what your BH is going through. He's comparing a future with you, with all of its positives and negatives, against a future with someone else, with all of its unknowns.

^Now, that was uncharacteristically negative in tone. I don't like that, but I feel like it's important for you to understand. This is raw stuff.

Moving forward, what makes you a better choice? How can you show him that you aren't just settling for him (sexually and otherwise)?

^^^^^^This. Wow, xhz700, I must have read through your illustration at least 5 times. I am going to use it in my talk with WW tonight.

[This message edited by HoplesslyBlind at 5:07 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

xhz700 you have conveyed this in such a simple but very profound and succint way. I am hoping CSCE understands all that you have said here. I am really hoping that her BS and her will somehow resolve this towards R. Granted this will be a long road. I think she has shown great remorse and has done some hard work. My reason (even though if she recalls) I was somewhat tough on her, but she has IMHO demonstrated untirelessly great effort to save her marriage, pretty much far more than I have seen in many cases of infidelity. Of course as you have said BH ultimately will decide.

I keep hearing you say sex sex sex. No desire.

You should pull up Dr Laura’s program from today. 11/1

She had a caller with this same problem. Dr L response was something like. Who wants to have sex after 20 years. We want to make love. Reframe it. I want to make love. I want my husband to feel love.

She did a much better job of explaining.

Respectfully, Rocket Raccoon... CSCS and LJ have an agreement not to read one another's threads so that both can share freely. Although he might have made this comment in a totally different thread so it might not technically apply (and understanding that either of them could come across one another's comments on other threads accidentally), I doubt they want other SI members to give "reports" to them on what one another is posting.

I don't intend this to come off in a manner that is snarky or impolite. I just think it best to refrain from making such references in future posts so that we can help honor the agreement they have made with one another and allow both to be able to post on SI without feeling monitored or censored.

ASCL, apologies if I have overstepped some lines. It was not meant to be a report, but a reaction to what was posted.

The point I was trying to get across was not to provoke any disagreements, but to merely indicate that CSCE might want to tone down her bluntness. Truth can still be told, but in a more sensitive manner. It does not mean that it needs to be completely blunt, as that shows little empathy to the person receiving the information.

I do believe that CSCE is doing incredibly well on the self-improvement front, and it is a shame that things have gotten to where they are now.

Edited for clarity

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 1:14 AM, November 2nd (Thursday)]