SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think it's great that you keep posting and are getting a lot out of this. I hope you keep doing it no matter what happens with your BH.

My concern is that he might need help to heal, and I don't want to abandon him if that is the case. An example would be IC - it's very unlikely that he would have started going if I hadn't suggested it, found a recommended therapist, and paid for it. But I believe it will help him immensely.

Gently, it isn't up to you to dictate his healing. Yes, maybe IC is good for him but that is for him to decide. IC is not a requirement for a BS to heal and if he's not ready or proactive in finding a good IC for himself, it can be more damaging than helpful. He could get an IC who thinks he needs to rugsweep your A and stuff down his feelings about it. His IC could push him to R at all costs and if that happens, chances are he will try this for a bit and then file for D when he can no longer handle it. I have seen a few posters do exactly this. It's not up to you to determine if he's ready or what he needs.

By focusing so heavily on him, you are wasting time and energy that would be better spent on yourself. Right now anything you could possibly do to help him that does not involve becoming a safe partner is like rubbing sand paper on an open wound. What will help him is you reading books, seeing your IC as much as possible, practicing radical honesty and authenticity (Google these if you don't recognize them), and anything that can actively fix the problems you have that are making this hard on him. Any time you start thinking about what to do for him or get the urge to push him to do something, research how you can change something about yourself instead. There is a time and place for suggesting changes in what he is doing but right now it's nothing but unhelpful and your BH has expressed how he has felt pushed to do things he doesn't want to and doesn't find helpful by you.

I understand that wanting to focus on him LOOKS noble and kind on the surface. It looks like you are helping but really it's about control. As other posters have pointed out, it does appear that you have an issue with control - controlling the information you give others, attempting to control the marriage narrative, attempting to control the outcome, and attempting to control your BH by making him promise to not make decisions and pushing him into MC and now IC. No matter what your intentions are, this is an aspect of yourself that you will need to confront and learn how to overcome because it will come back to bite you. If IC goes terrible for your BH, he will remember that you pushed him to do it before he wanted to just like how he looks at the MC attempt. By attempting to control him, you come off as selfish and manipulative no matter how good your intentions may be because once again you did not respect his wishes and put your desires above him.

There is a book that may help you identify these controlling behaviors and put them to rest. It is called "Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself". We usually refer BSes to read this book but I truly believe anyone who has a problem with control versus focusing on themselves can benefit from what it outlined in this book.

The sexual aspect that got to your H....haven't you been honest, told him everything? Why is that "news" to him?

xhz700 - I can't even imagine the hurt he's feeling. We were everything to each other, and I behaved like he was nothing to me. He said the other day something to the effect of "I know I have value, but when I'm around you all I can think about is how little you were willing to throw me away for, and that makes me feel worthless." It's heartbreaking. I hate that anyone made him feel that way, let alone me...

There is a huge hole inside of you that you were (are?) willing to throw anything into in order to fill it up.

Yes, THIS. I'm only starting to grasp the totality of it myself, but this is the ugly truth of it. For as much as BH might be worrying about if he can trust me, I'm equally worried about trusting myself. Right now I'm working to fill in the hole, but even after it's filled (presuming I'm successful), if I don't keep an eye on it it could open up again, and then I'm right back where I started. It's like a cancer -- I have to treat it aggressively, and even after it goes into remission I have to monitor it for warning signs for the rest of my life. The small silver lining is that I'm confident the reason the hole got so big in the first place was because I was deliberately looking the other way. Now that I'm focused on it, it will be much harder to ignore.

Sanibelredfish - Yes, I understand that our relationship is forever changed. I'd go so far as to say it is dust. We would have to build it from the ground up, except it's worse than that because we have to deal with the huge crater I caused with the A.

I want to stay in the M for so many reasons, ranging from the most idealistic to the most mundane. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that I truly believe it would be worth it. Knowing the two of us and our hangups, if we could find our way through this together, I have confidence we would have both grown by huge measures by the time we got to the other side, and I have faith that growth would deepen our relationship, widen our communication, and enrich our understanding of each other. Honestly, I feel like it already has, a bit. There was so much good in us before I strayed, but we didn't really discuss our feelings and it's like we weren't tuned to the same frequencies by the end. Now, we're connecting with each other and with ourselves on a new level, and that's powerful.

It won't be like it was. He won't blindly trust me, and I won't blindly trust myself. We shouldn't. But if we compensate for that with being better in tune with one another and with ourselves - if instead of trusting to simply "not cheat" we trust each other to know our thoughts and feelings and to share them, and if we trust ourselves to listen and be supportive of those experiences - that would be a more fulfilling, open and honest relationship, which is the best defense against any number of sins, infidelity included, and would in any case identify any red flags immediately.

Regardless of who my next relationship is with, that is what I will be looking for - not blind trust - and I think BH would be best served to do the same. Blind trust allows you to overlook warning signs, when you should be attuned to them as a sign your partner is struggling.

You're right about where his mind is. The other night, he was out at an industry event, and when he got home he asked me if I had anyone over. I didn't, but it started a conversation about how he couldn't be sure, and how sad it made him that he had to wonder. How I stole that peace of mind from him, on top of everything else...

I know he isn't sure it's worth it to try and love a new me -- he might even be sure it isn't worth it, to be honest. He often mentions how he could find someone new, and I have no doubt he could. All I can do is hope he sees in us what I still see in us, and that I haven't destroyed that, too.

You aren't discouraging me - these are thoughts that swim around my head on daily basis.

Hi CSCE, thanks for sharing your story. I didn't read the entire post because my brain is shutting down. But I see that you are making efforts and trying your best to understand yourself and support your H. I do believe 100% that true R is possible--- it takes 2 people to make it happen. Your H needs time and only he will know how much time.

Regardless of your outcome, I hope you will find that we all have holes within us that need filling, and you are still a precious human being. Thank you for sharing so I can understand the W side more. Many blessings

nekonamida - This is hard to hear. I will respond more thoroughly, but I need to think about this for a little while, first. It conflicts with some of the other advice I've received, and I need to take some time to sort it out.

GoldenR - I was honest with BH about everything that was done, but did not express "how" it was done, in the same way that I didn't tell him the positions of the A sex. He didn't ask, and my understanding is that people vary widely in their level of interest in (and ability to handle) the dirty details, so with consideration of mind movies I wasn't going to say more than he wanted me to on that subject.

In any case, it felt like what upset him was the way that it was presented, and how that reflected on him (as opposed to feelings of deception) -- as though the opposite of "adventuresome" was "boring" and "uninteresting". That's not the case, but he isn't open to hearing it from me at the moment.

IceThree - I'm glad it has been helpful to you. I have absolutely been making efforts -- whether they are effective is another story, but the efforts are there. I know R takes 2 people, and I'm not sure that BH will ever want to try, no matter how much time. However, I'm not going to make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Thank you for the kind words -- Sometimes when I'm uncovering all of these things about myself that need work, it can be very easy to get overwhelmed and feel like it's amazing anyone puts up with me at all...forgetting that everyone is fighting their own battles.

This is hard to hear. I will respond more thoroughly, but I need to think about this for a little while, first.

It doesn't conflict at all with letting go of the outcome and focusing on fixing yourself. We talk a lot about the WS helping the BS heal which is true but your BS is triggered by you right now. He has expressed reluctance in doing a lot of things like daily check-ins as being more harmful than helpful to him. He doesn't want any intimacy when a lot of couples experience hysterical bonding. He's suspicious of your actions and especially your words. That's why the most helpful thing for him right now is for you to focus inward. He will see you're doing the work. It will show more in your words and actions.

Your actions will prove your remorse but if they're all about him and what he is doing instead of what you are doing to fix this, it's not going to send a great message. Your remorse, honesty, and empathy will be essential to any hope of R far more than an IC will. Because IC might push him towards you or away from you but without a real, concrete effort towards working on yourself, the result of divorce will be the same.

Here are some other good books for you to look into:

- How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda MacDonald

- Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

nekonamida - I agree with what you're saying, but I suppose what I'm struggling with is that I feel like I am focusing inward, and I'm *attempting* to give up control. My posts here have been largely about myself and my own issues (to the point where I've felt guilty and selfish), I'm going to IC for uncovering and addressing them, and BH and I barely speak, so I don't have much choice other than to focus on me. I left home for 3 weeks because he asked me to, I stopped MC because he wanted to, yesterday I asked him if he wanted to do the check-in (he said ok), and other than the check-in we don't talk all day unless he initiates or I'm informing him of my whereabouts. After he mentioned seeing me was stressing him out, I offered to take classes at the gym 3 nights a week so he wouldn't have to be around me, and his response was something to the effect of "so you being gone more is the solution?" I don't know what to do with that. He wants and expects me to suggest things to him - it's how he knows it's genuine, because he doesn't want to feel like he's giving me instructions on how to be considerate - and that act of suggesting could easily be interpreted as attempts to control.

I realize I have pushed him - especially in the beginning, and especially before he was seeking any support - but I've been making concerted attempts not to, anymore.

I've read Linda MacDonald's book, but have not gotten my hands on a copy of Shirley Glass's yet. Currently I'm reading The Happiness Trap, because the avoidance of uncomfortable emotions was a root issue of mine.

CantSleepCantEat.

I have read all your post and I can not stop feeling in solidarity with BH. I'm only asking you;

What would you feel if you read this that you wrote to your OM "" 'I love you' does not capture it. It's a more complicated, nuanced thing than just love ... something soul-deep. "... Part of me wants nothing more than to run off with you and see where this madness takes us ... That part of me Fantasizes about starting over with you - arguing over the thermostat and falling asleep on your shoulder, wasting hours on chatting about the most mundane things ... "?

In my case I would destroy. What rational explanation could you give him after that? I understand where your BH and your pain should be immense .. greetings and wish the best for both

[This message edited by vatoloco at 10:26 PM, August 18th (Friday)]

If you remember from my first post, I was responding to this from one of your posts yesterday:

My concern is that he might need help to heal, and I don't want to abandon him if that is the case. An example would be IC - it's very unlikely that he would have started going if I hadn't suggested it, found a recommended therapist, and paid for it. But I believe it will help him immensely.

The truth is your BH will be fine in the event of a divorce. He will even be fine if he didn't get IC though it may good for him now while he's still some what in limbo. Gently, he doesn't need you to heal. Tons of BSes have to heal and move on from their WSes, ones much less further along than you, and many don't get IC to do it. This idea and concern that he needs you around and in the marriage to manage his healing is not a real concern. It's a rationalization behind why you need to control the outcome. Because if you really believe your BH cannot heal and be happy unless he's being helped by you then obviously you should do everything you can to prevent the divorce, see what I mean?

I see that you have done many things right recently and for the most part in your daily life you're not trying to control your BH. But you are still coming up with reasons why you should based on faulty thinking. It seems you get that you need to let go of the outcome which includes the idea that you need to further your BH's healing through management but you still have some ways to go in order to actually do that. If you can't look back and see where that thinking may have started, what feelings were attached to it, and the like, it will be much harder to stick to continuing to focus inward once you're back in house with your BH.

vatoloco - I wish you wouldn't have copied that text here. If you've read our full posts then you know BH and I are not reading the contents of each other's threads. I wish you would have respected our wishes to keep the conversations separate.

There is no rational explanation for what I've done, but the posts earlier in this thread do a much better job attempting it than I can here. It was senseless, stupid and cruel.

I don't begrudge your feelings of solidarity for BH. A horrible thing was done to him, by someone he loved and trusted. However, this isn't a "choose sides" type of situation - if it were, obviously I'd lose. Instead, BH and I both came here to sort out our own pain and demons. I hope you are helping him to do so, as opposed to just coming here to remind me how terrible I am. I assure you, I don't need help with that.

As a note: The "greetings" and "wish the best" come off as very insincere when preceded by "I would destroy you."

CantSleepCantEat

I apologize for putting those lines, because I thought they had talked about this in other comments here, and I do not want to destroy you, but I said that I would destroy.

And I'm honest about my greetings, because if there was real love, the pain that causes infidelity is enormous, no matter who the couple does.

Again my apologies ...

[This message edited by vatoloco at 10:25 PM, August 18th (Friday)]

"I would destroy you."

I did not mean this, I meant "I would destroy"

saludos

Vat's typos messed up his question...

(I think) He was trying to ask if the shoe were on the other foot, and you read those same words that were from your H to an OW, how would you feel? Could you get past it?

Vat - pretty sure you still got it wrong...the edit button is your friend.

Thanks golden

That I wanted to ask you, it was not my intention to offend or attack you. regards

I had responses started, but I don't have it in me right now.

Today was a "cold shoulder" day from BH. After what happened yesterday, I was braced for it, but it was still hard to deal with and made me lonely. I gave him his space all day. At 9, I asked him if he wanted to do the check in. He said ok. After it was over, he said he started looking up divorce processing today, and that he wants to move forward with that. That it feels like the inevitable end we are driving toward. That what we had is dead.

And then, we talked for 2 hours about everything - If he had a time machine, how far back would he go to warn himself? How he can't imagine actually signing the papers but he can imagine after. How he's thought about how happy it would make me, if he said he wanted to try at R, but that would be just another thing he would be doing for me. How scared he is at the idea of trying, and having my conviction fade. How if a promotion at work caused this, how would I ever deal with having a baby? How he sees if he did try to R for me to be ending up like his parents (they are still married but have been unhappy for 20 years). How he's sorry he made me buy a new couch. How he imagines either being forever guarded with me, or having to open himself up to have me hurt him again. How he isn't looking forward to the hassle of selling our houses. How he can't see himself pursuing women. How he thinks I'm overly pessimistic about a future without him. How he feels like staying in this much longer would be abusive to me. How AP would take me back. How I made him feel like the butt of an incredibly cruel joke. How he never saw himself as the divorcing type. How his IC says he shouldn't make a decision this early...

It feels pretty definite (I knew it would be, whenever he said the words), and I can feel myself stuffing my feelings so I don't have to deal with them. I'm going to try to sleep, but in the morning I have to deal with actually feeling everything that's crashing around inside of me.

CECS

Of course he feels all those mixed emotions. Your DD was only 2 months ago. Not even that actually.

My emotions did the very same thing. One minute I'd think about R and the next it was kick the cold heartless B*tch to the curb and let her see what life would be like on her own without me to run to every time she had a problem she couldn't cope with on her own.

If he wants to file let him file, DON'T tell him to do it if you think it's best for him. I'll go back to my previous post and restate. If he is EVEN REMOTELY thinking about R he wants to see you fighting for him and putting in as much effort, resolve and desire as you did for your AP. Actually he NEEDS to see more of the above.

From time to time I STILL have the thought of my GOD why am I putting myself through this. (R) and we've been in R for 18 months now.

He may very well have decided to file but guess what? It ain't over till it's over and the judge drops the gavel on a D.

Just my thoughts and opinion.

Gently, your BH's fears regarding how you might handle future stresses are perfectly rational. You have a lot of work to do to become a safe partner. If you were an outside advocate for him, what would you advise him to do? Now this may be difficult to hear: I believe he will be ok if you divorce, after a few years of course. So don't worry about that outcome for him.

Back to you. Remember to work on letting go of outcome. He is going to do what he does, right? These insecure control issues aren't doing either you any good. Focus on becoming a better you. It's great that you are both getting IC, and that you are reading and educating yourself. Don't do this for him. Do it for you. Sure he might hang around long enough to see the changes . You might end up together even years after D. It's happened more than once.

I have high hopes for you! If you keep your focus on changing yourself to be more effective then you will be fine no matter what the outcome with BH. I strongly suggest trying to be absolutely real with your IC. This is one of those cases where controlling your image and managing others' perceptions of you is holding you back.

Best

Time and patience are your greatest allies at this point. Embrace them.

As hard as it may seem, perhaps it would be better to spend less time analyzing things (especially your feelings and your husband's feelings). At this point, it may become over-analysis. The reading and some analysis is good, but it may well be that in many cases, there are no solutions available within the first few months. The solutions come about with time and patience.

Stay strong, and be there for your husband when he'll let you . . . be patient when he won't. That's not a solution, but it's one way to move forward.

[This message edited by c24j at 6:57 PM, August 19th (Saturday)]

CECS:

I suppose I do have some criticisms of JFO - BH went there looking for measured advice, and felt that for the most part all he got was people projecting their own pain onto him and emotionally declaring what he should do - I can't say, because I haven't read it. Perhaps he posted in the wrong place, but he came to SI because I told him how it was helping me work through things, and he doesn't feel like he's gotten the same treatment. I was hoping that it would provide him the same amount of thought-provoking support as I've received, and in some ways I feel like it has failed him.

I agree with your husband's assessment and with sassylee. I found it disappointing that many (certainly not all) seemed intent on criticising you and urging your husband to divorce asap without acknowledging that you, like many Waywards, were in the fog of the affair when making your choices and decisions and that you had a wake up call on DD. I would say that sasylee did a fine job in pointing this out.

At the same time your early posts, although very articulate, seemed well crafted rather than sincere and many BS's did not believe that you were remorseful, which probably was true initially anyway at least. In my view that is no longer true and I hope your husband recognises the tremendous effort you are making to be truly remorseful and to help him to heal.

My contribution was to try and give an example of a reconciliation where the WW's behaviour had been similar to yours but where the WW became fully remorseful. That did not go down well

On reflection I would have been better employed trying to assist and advise your husband, although I am sure I do not have the skill set to do that as well as many here. I understand that your husband is taking some time away from SI but I will try to post something in the next few days.