SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You have more reasons that most to leave the marriage. She is a serial cheater. I'm not sure why you want to save this but I wish you the best. I tried with a serial cheater for ten years. I failed every time no matter what I did. I threw money at the problem. I took time off of work. I showered her with attention and romantic nights together. In the end there was nothing I could to save the marriage. The lesson I learned is I should have saved me and my kids along time ago. Its my number 1 regret in life. Your wife has shown you she wants someone else. You should believe her.

In her conversation with AP3 she expressed regret that she started "all this nonsense" and that this kind of life sucks.

DarkHoleHeart

My analogy would be: “I ate way too much chocolate cake, now I’m sick.” They do feel sick. Do they get a gold star for realizing that they don’t feel good?

The cake made them feel good at first. An affair is all about what makes the WS feel good or bad. It’s all about them. So realizing that you’re no longer having fun is a profound epiphany?

Once they vomit cake may sound good again.

The thing is she's now doing EVERYTHING (except things that I explicitly told her not to do) to prove that she can become different, safe person. I just can't find a hole in her actions that tells me she's not genuinely remorseful.

DarkHoleHeart

If someone is accused of robbing a bank they argue that it wasn’t them even if they did it.

Let’s say you show them a video tape of them doing it, show them the bank’s money that was recovered from their house and a DNA report.

Now they immediately throw themselves on the mercy of the court. They are sincere as hell and willing to do anything to make the judge and jury (you) happy.

It could be an epiphany, they suddenly realized that robbing banks was bad. But it’s also very smart. Why even try and defend the indefensible. All it will do is piss off the judge.

If I was facing 30 years in jail I would be volunteering for every community service I could find and mowing the judge’s yard with great vigor.

In a way it’s an advantage to have overwhelming evidence against you. You don’t have to make a decision over which path to take because there is only one.

the jig is up

the scheme or deception is revealed or foiled.

[This message edited by Michigan at 9:32 AM, September 5th (Tuesday)]

I tried with a serial cheater for ten years. I failed every time no matter what I did. I threw money at the problem. I took time off of work. I showered her with attention and romantic nights together. In the end there was nothing I could to save the marriage. (....)

Your wife has shown you she wants someone else. You should believe her.

The thing is - I'm not doing any of this. She has to somehow prove that the only thing she wants now and forever is - me.

The reason I want to save this marriage is because I believe (not with my heart, but with my rational mind) that it would be the best outcome for our family (which at the moment doesn't include WW). And I don't actually want to save this marriage. It is dead already.

Michigan, she was always sick eating it. AP1 was for a month, she realized that she's not getting any chocolate there, just quick fucks without satisfaction in the forest. AP2 lasted 2 months until DDay#1, during second month she started leaving clues for me (not of PA), because she was becoming more and more depressed and wanted situation to be resolved somehow (but being too weak to do it herself). Depressed not because she wanted to ride out to the sunset with her unicorn and we were obstacles in her path, but because she couldn't compartmentalize her life that way. To AP3 she said that she doesn't want to live her life that way.

Of course, something must be really broken with her that allows her to fall into the shit, be dragged out of it and then jump into the same shit again. I won't be doing anything to drag her out this time. It's her turn now.

In a way it’s an advantage to have overwhelming evidence against you. You don’t have to make a decision over which path to take because there is only one.

She could have D me right when I gave her the papers and be free (ok, maybe with a small fine). No, she's facing N years in prison instead, she's facing all that community service and it is her choice.

She could have D me right when I gave her the papers and be free (ok, maybe with a small fine). No, she's facing N years in prison instead, she's facing all that community service and it is her choice.

DarkHoleHeart

Yes she could have divorced and been a single mother with three kids. Finding guys for free sex is easy. Finding a guy as good as you that will take the full package (her and the kids) is next to impossible. You’re providing something to her that makes the community service well worth it.

You describe remaining married to you as a “prison” for her. Prison is very unpleasant. How mean do you plan to be to her and for how long?

You’re obviously are a great guy and extremely understanding. She knows you better than anyone. She knows that "N years in prison" will turn out to be not that bad.

My point is that she is making a rational decision and acting upon it. That doesn’t prove that she is a new person.

[This message edited by Michigan at 11:29 AM, September 5th (Tuesday)]

That doesn’t prove that she is a new person

Of course.

However, it might be possible that years of community services will make her become one. Or just makes her drop everything.

BTW, she had option to go free without the kids.

Curious thing happened Saturday night.

WW received text (~11PM) from AP1 something along the lines "[WW name], thank you for existing!" to her business phone.

We decided that this might be some attempt at revenge or something (because I told OBS). He definitely knew that she will be with me at that time, so maybe hoped that I will think that she is still in A with him or something.

Note, that I have sources at her work that indicate she has no contact with him (except occasionally meeting in the hallway).

Do you mean "passing" in the hallway or are they actually meeting up in the hallway?

Passing.

I didn't read this whole thread but just quickly skimmed it.

You're trying to 'reconcile' with a serial cheater. I saw a post earlier in this thread where you were actually trying to delude yourself into believing she isn't a serial cheater because she doesn't exhibit all the traits or signs of a classic serial cheater, etc. etc.

I'm not sure WHO you were trying to convince - us, or yourself.

In either event, you've signed up for a lifetime diet of shit sandwiches so I'll just wish you lots of luck and may you always have an adequate supply of Pepto Bismol on hand.

NoMercy, in following posts I actually said that yes, she is a serial cheater.

Her IC said that she is "beginner serial cheater". One who hasn't learned to compartmentalize her life. And there lies my hope - that she felt a lot of negative emotions during her affairs (backed up by her actions and my observations).

Just to reiterate - after DDay2, when she was served divorce documents, I was ready for many things. Anger, DV, accusations, blameshifting ("you are the one destroying our family"), etc.

What I was not ready for is for her to suddenly become remorseful (I didn't think she was capable of that). I haven't noticed anything that would suggest her remorse is not genuine so far. So the main thing I have to do is to see if it passes the test of time.

Another thing is that cheating was not her MO for 14 years, and, believe me, she had many opportunities. She discussed this in IC, one of possible things triggering her first A was midlife crisis and then it was just snowballing to hell. So working hard on boundaries and understanding how her mind works might theoretically make her safe partner (BTW, I don't believe in value of finding exact reasons why WS cheated - but the process itself, where they learn to analyze themselves and understand their own motives might be really helpful).

Yes, I realize that there is a good probability that there's one more shit sandwich waiting for me in the future. The thing is, that if she fails this time, I don't see how I can fool myself to stay one more time. Now she ticks every box in "remorseful" definition, so if there is next time, there are no ways to become even more remorseful to convince me that "this time I'm really going to change".

I know that I tick like 75% of the boxes in "stupid" definition. The reason why I'm relatively comfortable with staying and allowing her to prove she's worth staying with is that I already know the drill. I know that I can divorce her (which was big scary thing pre-DDay2). As somebody's signature on this forum puts it "Sleep well tonight, I can always divorce you in the morning".

DHH

I was hoping and pretty sure it was "passing" but I had to ask. Good you have someone there watching. Does she know that?

I'm glad she told you about it. How have things been going in the transparency arena? Do u monitor somehow or just figure that if she F's up you will eventually find out?

Finally, is this something you would tell OBS1? Or are they not together anymore?

DHH why don't you go back and read your first post on this thread.

Your attitude and plan seems to have changed quite a bit from those days. One interpretation of this progression is that after dday#2 you were angry enough to shock her a bit, which resulted in some effort on her part.

How about now? Is this what you want? How do you see this playing out?

[This message edited by antlered at 7:56 AM, September 18th (Monday)]

Stevesn, I don't think she knows.

As for monitoring, I'm relying more on behavior patterns. I realize that it is almost impossible to find out about quick fuck in office storeroom, but full blown A requires a little bit more effort. Quick fucks were included in her As, but when she realized that's all she's getting, she changed AP1 to AP2.

Transparency? I have access to everything (but I had it during A too). Additionally, now I can check her work computer remotely any time I want.

Finally, is this something you would tell OBS1? Or are they not together anymore?

I was thinking about it. But since OBS directly told me to fuck off (and said that she will block me), I'm leaning to doing nothing about it. I don't know if they are together or not, since they both disappeared from FB (not sure, because I was looking at their profiles from my WW's account until she did major "friend" clean-up (not requested by me)).

I was thinking, however, to reply him with "This is WW's husband. Do I need to keep informing your wife about your actions?" Good idea?

I wouldn't interface w him at all. But if you know where she works I'd print a picture of the text received and mail it to her work snail mail.

Then don't think about it any more from their side.

It's good that she showed you and did not respond.

I understand your strategy of having her continue to work with them to prove she can without cheating. Do you often talk about how she handles it when she sees them?

What more does your inside guy say about them?

If needed I could reach her using throw away e-mail address, but I think I won't contact her again unless she makes contact first. I'm not angry at her, just that her message was quite clear.

She have seen AP3 (I think) once since divorce documents. He works in different department. Didn't talk. Last communication was when she notified that I know and have recordings.

The last "significant" contact with AP1 was when he entered her office, asked something her COW and left without acknowledging WW's presence. She transferred all cases she had with him to her COW, asked to arrange her "on alert" schedule not to coincide with his. So her last conversation with him was when OBS got my e-mail. Not even "Hi"s any more when passing each other. I asked how she feels when she sees him. She said "Just nothing, I try not to register him in my mind", but she feels disgusted when she thinks about what they did.

I don't have much contact with my source, just that I will be notified if something suspicious starts again.

FWIW I think you're doing quite well. I figure sometimes it's good to hear that.

I know you will be ready to pull the plug if things fall apart. I hope they don't and that you can work your way to a new happiness.

FWIW I think you're doing quite well. I figure sometimes it's good to hear that.

Yes! Thanks!

I'm far from sure that I'm doing right thing. On the one hand it looks like R is the best option for the family, but on the other hand I feel that by staying with her I will need A LOT of my strength directed towards R and not towards my kids.

But there's this thing - it looks like she destroyed my trust so completely that when I see pretty woman now, the thoughts like "hm, what dirty secrets hide behind that pretty face?" always creep in. So if I D her, I have no idea how I will be able to trust anybody again and how it would be possible not to scare every woman away with such issues.

it looks like she destroyed my trust so completely that when I see pretty woman now, the thoughts like "hm, what dirty secrets hide behind that pretty face?"

Yes, that happens when you are betrayed. What do you think when you look at WW?

I have been following your thread, so many comments, suggestions, etc. You are doing well but I still don't think you facing up to the truth and she is still running the show (IMHO).

I can't articulate it that well but I think that you are kind of lost at the moment. She suddenly "found religion" and you spun that way too, the instant that she did.

I can't say if perhaps she's learning how to manipulate you or if it's simply you bending emotionally too much too soon.

I don't necessarily think that you should even change course. Just that there is a little glossing over here somewhere, somehow. That just needs to be addressed or else it will fester.

I think my biggest fear for you is that she will be doing this work without and real ramifications from her actions only to get you back to a place where she can end up hurting you all over again.

Yeah, to R the BS has to open himself up to being betrayed again. The thing is, some WSes, including some serial cheaters, change from cheaters to good partners. If your WS is one of those, your lives can be spactacularly joyful.

For a remorseful WS, doing the work of changing from cheater to good partner is an immensely painful consequence. Again, the payoff is joy as the work gets done - but it comes at a high price.

I, too, think a WS who does the work is less likely to cheat than any new partner is likely to be.

I don't think you're crazy, DHH. If you've evaluated where your W is at accurately, I think you have a good chance for a successful R. I watched my w closely for 3.5 years. she was totally consistent in her work (which continues now, another 3.5 years on).

Then I decided I had enough evidence that she was totally on board, and I started enjoying the ride.

So don't declare victory too early - but I odn;t really think you need this warning....