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CONTROL-ALT-DIVORCE

Sharkman - "CONTROL-ALT-DIVORCE"

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[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:12 PM, November 5th (Sunday)]

Trying to reconcile with a train wreck is useless.

How can she look at you with a straight face?

[This message edited by MidnightRun at 12:22 PM, August 29th (Tuesday)]

Stevesn,

it seems to me your original plan of divorce and then let her try and win you back was probably the best approach.

Maybe the thing is that I don't feel the need of "emergency exit" door handle within the reach any time any more. She has shown that once she got out of initial shock, she was able to discuss D, custody, etc. without drama, concentrating on the best approach for all of us. So it looks like it is not necessary to do it right now. Of course, if she relapses into wayward mode again, things might change.

I'm not sure how you just restart trust with her after all she has done.

Me too. But "restart" is not the right word. Rebuild? Build something completely new?

She really should be at best on a level playing field with any other potential love interest out there looking to win your heart.

This was never my plan. I said, that even if I divorce her but give her a chance to win me back, then I won't be looking for other love interests.

TBH level with them is probably in a better position than she deserves.

Theoretically yes, you are right.

What are your plans. Have you started that 6 month virtual clock yet?

No timeframe for that any more. If I feel that she's not doing enough or that I'm drifting away from her further and further, then why wait 6 months?

The plan? To observe. I'm not doing 180, since I feel strong enough emotionally to be able to assess the situation and to make appropriate decisions.

My rational mind tells me that reconciling would be the best outcome for me and the kids (I'm intentionally leaving her out of this equation). And I mean really reconciling.

Psychologist with whom we had MC session (not really MC, we just described our situation, WW will be going to IC with her) said, that WS, who did all the hard work to really understand her/his actions and put corresponding boundaries, etc. should be safer partner than one who didn't cheat, but has no understanding about real underlying motives of his actions, choices, etc. and I think I agree with that.

M1965, you don't need to apologize.

what does your wayward need to do to make their dishonesty, betrayal, and lack of integrity and commitment acceptable?

What do they say or do that will make you say, "Oh, okay, that's fine. Let's just get back to it as if you never did any of that stuff"?

There's nothing she can do to make all of this acceptable. All she can do is to make sure that it doesn't happen again and that impact her actions had on me are minimized.

It seems like your wife suddenly decided to become public property, allowing full access to her life and body to pretty much anyone. There are some men who would be fine with that, some who would like to sit and watch, but that isn't you.

Yes, it looks exactly like that (and yes, that isn't me). It looks like something just broke inside her. 14 years - nothing and then just baaaaam like she's off the leash. It might sound weird, but maybe that's encouraging thing? If she fixes what broke, maybe she can be really safe partner (again?)?

The thing is she's now doing EVERYTHING (except things that I explicitly told her not to do) to prove that she can become different, safe person. I just can't find a hole in her actions that tells me she's not genuinely remorseful. So the main question now is - will she be able to keep it that way for a long time?

Another thing is what I saw in the recordings of her with AP#3. I saw woman who was really miserable. She complained to him that it's not the way she wants to live, she needs something stable, that she tried living "for today only", "taking all the chances" and it was piece of shit. When I asked her then why she did it (i.e. started with AP3), she answered that she felt like she was heading straight to the bottom, she didn't understand me, she had no idea how to get out of this situation, was afraid to divorce. She remarked to her friend - "I'm doing everything to destroy myself".

During one conversation I said that I don't trust her, I'm not sure that her remorse is genuine, that maybe she's just trying to remain with me to have comfortable life, etc. Her answer was - "I already tried that - false R. I felt like shit, you heard it yourself. Why would I do that again?". I answered that she's not very well known for making rational decisions lately (but she has a point - I kept this part silent).

I'm a little bit confused about the replies to my latest post. She finally has enough strength to disclose some rather important facts about her affair on her own (previously it was just details about things that I already knew/suspected), does this in the time when she's fully aware that slightest thing might send her packing, and everybody starts screaming - DIVORCE!!! That's because she fucked 24 times instead of 16? Or because she had oral?

[This message edited by DarkHoleHeart at 3:57 AM, August 30th (Wednesday)]

From my personal angle, I was not saying Divorce because of the new revelations, just because of the situation from the start.

I think you got that reaction from some because how you presented your post. It sounded like you were getting more tickle truth and you were exasperated from it. Don't know for sure but it sounded like that.

I think my biggest fear for you is that she will be doing this work without and real ramifications from her actions only to get you back to a place where she can end up hurting you all over again. I seriously don't know how you don't have mind movies and PTSD from what you have witnessed and been told.

I am all for R, and am rooting for the both of you. I think you are a smart confident guy who knows what he wants, so you I trust. Her I don't, but I am not judge and jury on that. Only you are.

I knew you weren't interested in pursuing others, I only felt that she didn't deserve to be attempting to win your heart back as your wife anymore. It wasn't a drunken ONS, it was a series of calculated affairs.

I felt that as your ex wife if she worked to help you over the hurt then she could possible win back your heart, and if you decided some day to remarry (with an iron clad prenup of course) she would have really earned it.

Sounds like you still have a solid plan though.

Take care.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:08 PM, August 29th (Tuesday)]

Just Quoting you DarkHoleHeart.. from earlier on. I know how it is though.

TMB, thanks for your kind words!

I've been following your thread, sorry for you :(

I said to her that any more lies or affairs were dealbreaker for me. That's not the line in the sand. That's groove in concrete. I'm getting myself out of infidelity.

But clearly not a line in the sand or concrete. It's movable. And she will forever know this.

smilethrupain, yes, I'm guilty of that, I guess. She crossed that line.

Ok, now allow me to rationalize a bit (I don't want to feel guilty, you know )

Emotionally I was done. Intellectually I was done. I lawyered up, I got divorce documents prepared, I served.

I expected a lot - anger, DV accusations, manipulation, children manipulation, begging, you name it.

What I didn't expect was remorse. I was sure that she's not able to feel it, to act on it.

So, it looks like she's pushing that concrete block. Or moving whole beach with the line in the sand.

But in the end, yes, I'm probably just another one who moved the line.

MidnightRun:

How can she look at you with a straight face?

She can't. Really.

whiterabbit46:

This has to be the worst example of cheating I've ever read

Somehow I consider LTAs spanning multiple (or tens) years and hundreds of fucks even worse (I don't mean serial cheaters). I cannot even begin to imagine how to reprocess multiple years of lies and deceit... And there are people who did reconcile after such affairs.

Is my WW a serial cheater? I think not. She had/has a potential to become one, that's for sure. As NoMercy said (I think), serial cheaters are unable to feel even regret for their actions (not even speaking about remorse). My WW was not there yet. In her conversation with AP3 she expressed regret that she started "all this nonsense" and that this kind of life sucks.

Another thing about her affair, that she never shown any disrespect (in words of course) to me, never talked shit about me. Yes, I was "choking her", but that was because "he's in pain, he cannot sleep", and she just doesn't feel anything to me anymore (and haven't felt for a long time) to care (now she explains it as history rewriting to rationalize her behavior).

Stevesn:

I think my biggest fear for you is that she will be doing this work without and real ramifications from her actions only to get you back to a place where she can end up hurting you all over again. I seriously don't know how you don't have mind movies and PTSD from what you have witnessed and been told.

That's my biggest fear too. But no, I'm actually not afraid of another DDay any more. I know the drill.

I guess the time will tell.

PTSD? I don't think I have one. I have mind movies, of course. I have triggers. Actually, after DDay#2 mind movies and triggers were gone, but started to come back slowly lately and were suddenly enhanced by latest revelations.

Most BSs have worst mind movies during sex with WS. Prior to DDay#2 I had almost none during sex. Just some split-second images. Maybe that's because I treat sex like a jazz session and I'm the band, she's the instruments. I'm all in, I go into "music" trance (maybe that's what it makes me "ideal lover" (her words to AP3) (allow me to brag a bit, it's good for morale )). I still have to see how it works after DDay#2.

Stevesn:

It sounded like you were getting more tickle truth and you were exasperated from it

I don't think of it as more TT, I think it is finally "coming clean". Because she did it on her own accord. And because she let go the outcome. And because there are no slots in timeline to squeeze more fucks into :D (the number of APs and As is confirmed by her conversation with AP3).

Since this is supposed to be "real remorse", there can be only one "coming clean" event. No more. If there's more, that means she's not doing the work.

I was more exasperated by it because it meant that I will have to reprocess whole picture again and I know how that sucks. And of course, about the new details, like a no hole of her unexplored by other dicks (not that it really matters in the general context).

Edit: formatting

[This message edited by DarkHoleHeart at 4:13 AM, August 30th (Wednesday)]

I think the new info would be that she kissed another guy between AP1 & AP2.

Did she give you the info on him? Like where, when, who, why?

I do hope for you that this does not become another AP......

Sorry, but I do believe that the groove is drawn in concrete that has not set, as it is still shifting, and becoming shallow at parts. You are in control of whether the concrete is set or not.

I think the new info would be that she kissed another guy between AP1 & AP2.

Did she give you the info on him? Like where, when, who, why?

Yes. He was always in the picture, she confided in him during A, he wanted to fuck her, she never considered him as AP. She kissed him herself, meaning it as a tease or joke.

DHH, this is my first post on your thread, just thought I would chime in and say that I totally get what you're saying.

My exWW had three AP's and was initially hell-bent on TT, gaslighting, rugsweeping and doing all she could to protect herself. When I filed it was as if it flipped a switch in her brain and she was immediately remorseful - truly remorseful, totally unselfish, focussed entirely on me and earning my trust. The change was like night and day and I know now that it was genuine. I didn't back down on the D - I was done and I needed to follow through with it. We separated and had no contact for a year before we reconnected and I realised that she had spent that year working on her issues, understanding why she had behaved the way she did and taking responsibility for her own happiness. She is a different person now.

I see similarities in the way that your WW is now coming clean with details of the A's and putting in the effort without you having to request it. Don't underestimate the significance of this, it really could be a turning point for her. At the same time, be aware (I'm certain that you are) that she could be attempting to manipulate you.

Keep the onus on her to do the heavy lifting and prove that she is becoming a safe partner - keep your options open but don't lose your will to walk away if you need to.

Finally, keeping a marriage intact 'for the children' does more harm than good. Kids are intuitive and will develop a sense that your dysfunctional marriage is normal and this will set them up for dysfunctional relationships of their own.

DHH,

Your reasoning is not awful but I do need to correct you on one thing. She's a textbook serial cheater. Like in a dictionary she would be there bad.

Regret expressed during an affair is more an indication of her poor compartmentalizations. Most adults, if they regret doing something, stop doing that action

Is my WW a serial cheater? I think not. She had/has a potential to become one, that's for sure. As NoMercy said (I think), serial cheaters are unable to feel even regret for their actions (not even speaking about remorse). My WW was not there yet. In her conversation with AP3 she expressed regret that she started "all this nonsense" and that this kind of life sucks.

Seriously? Three affair partners and you don't think she's a serial cheater? How can you justify that stance?

I only felt that she didn't deserve to be attempting to win your heart back as your wife anymore.

I felt that as your ex wife if she worked to help you over the hurt then she could possible win back your heart, and if you decided some day to remarry (with an iron clad prenup of course) she would have really earned it.

Just wanted to reiterate the main point of my last post. But I trust your judgement so I won't go further with it. I think you are thinking straight and know what work you see her doing and not doing.

Seriously? Three affair partners and you don't think she's a serial cheater? How can you justify that stance?

I've read up a little bit more about serial cheaters. She's definitely showing the traits - changing partners quite easily, breaking up A without residual feelings and in the case of the last one - actively looking for one.

So, basically, I'm fucked, right?

The only hope is that she wasn't that deep into serial cheating pattern (A1 and A2 - 2 months, A3 two encounters) yet, so it might not be addiction yet or general behavior pattern. So theoretically if she understands underlying motives and implements boundaries, she might become safe person.

The time will tell. I don't intend to spend it with my eyes closed.

Stevesn, I don't feel married. I don't think she does either. I wish I could do what Credence did - separate for some time to let her work on her own, but that's just not possible because of the kids - I would be taking so much from them if I do that (and I mean even if she leaves) :(

And just to reiterate - I won't be staying for the kids.

So, basically, I'm fucked, right?

In a word - no. What is the difference between a serial cheater and a one-off cheater? IMO there is no difference, both fail to remain within the boundaries of their relationships. If anything, you might be able to argue that a serial cheater is less likely to form an emotional bond with an AP but this doesn't lessen the betrayal.

R is reliant on a WS changing his/her behaviour and this is possible for any WS who wants it badly enough. If your WW is truly remorseful and willing to do whatever it takes to change her behaviour then (and only then) there is a possibility that she could eventually become a safe partner.

She would need to show you, through her actions, that she will not keep secrets from you regardless of how insignificant they may seem. She needs to show you that she will not allow herself to be in a position that is conducive to cheating ever again ie. no alone time with any man other than you or her immediate family. No nights out that you aren't invited to, no business trips, full transparency (phone, email, social media etc.), NC with all AP's and full disclosure to you if they attempt to contact her. Words mean nothing, it's all about actions and she needs to be doing all of this without you having to prompt her.

R is a long, hard road which will require changes in behaviour from both of you and it will require an unwavering commitment from both of you. It's not for everyone but in the right circumstances it can be successful.

Your WW has made some positive steps but she has a long way to go. For now, watch her actions and try to get a sense of whether or not she is actually changing her behaviour. IMO it is too soon to take either R or D off the table but the important thing is to take it at your own pace. I would be leaning towards D but giving her the opportunity to prove that R is a better option for YOU.

Credence, thanks for your words, it gives me some hope that I'm not a complete idiot for what I'm doing (i.e. instead of just breaking and running)!

Didn't have time to post, so this will be multi-part kind-of-update.

The main thing is that I still cannot find any holes in her behavior that would show that she's not truly remorseful.

Last Thursday she had appointment with IC (same one we already had meeting with). They explored various reasons for cheating.

IC said that MLC probably contributed to the circumstances.

Also she "diagnosed" my WW as a "beginner serial cheater" - one who is starting on that path, but hasn't learned compartmentalization yet. And that this is encouraging thing - feelings she got from her "adventures" weren't just pure fun, so it does not require too much effort to view A as something disgusting now.

Do you remember that I had evil plan to see if she's really sincere when she started begging me to give her another chance? It didn't succeed, but I will share it nevertheless, since it's kind of fun.

Just after DDay#2 and after she was served, WW went to her manager to notify him that I got sex tape of her in the office (I threatened to blow up her world if she fights for sole custody). He gave her VAR - said that it might come in handy in case of divorce and custody battle (this probably speaks volumes about how workplace As are viewed in our country and in this specific organization). She put it in her bag and never took it out. I found it on second (or even first) day she had it. So after few days (and when she started begging to take her back), I noticed that it is sill in her bag, I decided to put it to a good use - late at night I will turn it on and let it record her day, and then download what it recorded next night (hoping that she would discuss the situation with her COW). Let your enemy's weapons work for you, right? Unfortunately, when I was ready to execute my plan she returned it.

Sorry, forgot two more things.

I got my hands on her work computer (through remote desktop app TeamViewer). I was able to recover almost all pictures that they sent each other in google hangouts almost 1 year ago. Nothing really interesting, a lot of pictures of crappy food and couple of nude/dick pics from him. He really has small dick. (irony on) She really had bad luck with small dicks with all APs, maybe she would have left me otherwise? (irony off)

And WW just returned from meeting with her manager. She didn't get promoted because of her "adventures" in the office (manager knows about AP3 - COW only).

Nothing much to add to all the great advice you are receiving here. Just some encouragement.

I think you are doing really well. You seem more in control now - of both yourself and your marriage situation.

I hope your WW now realises how lucky she is to have you as her husband. She should be bending over backwards for you (figuratively not literally - although that as well )

What she did with OMs, seems so desperate, so pathetic, so needy that it is pretty clear she was broken for whatever reason. This needs to be sorted with IC.

As you have suggested her, hopefully last, revelations show to me that she understands what is required for her to be truly remorseful - warts and all.

Good luck and remain vigilant.

What she did with OMs, seems so desperate, so pathetic, so needy that it is pretty clear she was broken for whatever reason. This needs to be sorted with IC.

Yes, that's the impression I always get when I think about it.

Our conversation:

Me: "Ok, you needed attention/ego kibbles from other men, since all my attention was taken for granted and didn't count anymore. So, what kind of attention did you get from AP1?"

Her: "He told me compliments, that I'm pretty and sexy. We didn't actually talked much"

Me: "So, after he kissed you, he called you several times, said some compliments and you were ready to spread your legs for him"

Her: "........."

Me: "Ok, correct me if I'm wrong. The price you were willing to pay for several compliments was - 15y relationship, family, well-being of our kids, my sanity, my trust, your c***. Good deal, was it?"

Her: "At that time it looked like I was getting something from him. Now I see it for what it was. I got nothing, I destroyed everything"

Listening to her conversation with AP3 was torture not only because I saw my world breaking apart (actually, not true, I just saw multiple paths crumbling to dust and only one remaining, it was both painful and enlightening at the same time), but also that I couldn't comprehend how it is possible to be so pathetic... But I suspect that in her mind (at least at that time) she was just "getting what she wants".