SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi DHH

I know you are on here doing a great job posting on other threads but I was wondering how you and your W were doing? Is she still at the job with the APs or did she decide to get herself out of there.

Hopefully things are going well.

Hi Stevesn!

Nothing really new on my front. I have some good days and some bad days. Some bad days that turn good and vice versa.

Most bad days are caused by triggers that morph into "Am I doing the right thing?", "Is she truly remorseful, and not just acting it?", etc. thoughts. When these happen, she does all the right things (SI way).

She is in IC (one visit per two weeks). I feel that it really helps her to understand herself better. I had two sessions with the same IC myself, more about what I need from her than about me (and a bit about me, but I'm pretty well educated by SI ). Every time I had session with IC, I was afraid that she would start sprouting all this traditional rugsweeping bulshit, and I will have to tell WW that this IC failed too, but thankfully it never happened. I provided IC with written down version of WW's meeting with AP3, we had discussion about what I saw there (IC said that in her opinion there was a good deal of acting from my WWs side going on there).

She's still at the same job. Met AP1 several times, had short work-related conversations. Met AP3 once in the hallway. She's heading in the direction of quitting this job some time in the near future (not only because of A-related stuff). She's offered me multiple times to quit it right away and even become SAHM if that would help me heal, but I decided that it would be much harder to learn to keep to the boundaries staying at home with me most of the time and will be potentially more dangerous if she starts some job again some time in the future (IC also said that this might not be a good idea). I'm sure that she followed through if I said "do it" (and it would have seriously compromised some of our dreams and plans for the future).

Her work is a big trigger for me, but it is also good proving ground.

I visited her at the office a week ago (with all DDs). While I was driving there she reported that AP1 just came in (left a minute later), I replied "make sure he's nowhere around when I arrive, unless he wants car keys sticking out of his eye or something". Afterwards I asked WW "what do you think my first thought was when I entered your office?" "About the sex that happened there?" (with AP2) "Yes, kind of. I was thinking that there was bare ass of AP2 on one of these chairs when he was fucking you and I hope that my daughters don't decide to sit on it". She cried.

Overall I think that WW is having it quite easy. I do not wrap my words in anything soft when I talk about her As, so sometimes it hits her hard, but other than that there aren't real "external" consequences of her actions (well, no more office parties, no more lunches with male colleagues, less revealing clothing, etc. should count?). I cannot get inside her mind and heart to see how she really feels, but in the months following divorce papers she cried (and still does) tens of times more than I did pre-DDay2 (not a single tear "about" her since then from me). I cannot determine that her tears aren't 100% about her, but now, that immediate danger of "loosing me" has passed, her "crying pattern" didn't change. Another thing is that her tears do not pull any strings in my heart any more. She can cry all she wants about the shit that she brought upon us. So, sometimes I feel like a heartless machine (hence the song I posted on other thread).

To sum it all up, things are going quite well (I'm afraid to jinx it by saying so), with its ups and downs.

Few days ago she told me: "I wish I died two years ago"

Me: "Why two? Your affairs started just a bit over year ago."

Her: "You would have healed somewhat by now".

DHH. I should have thanked you for that previous update. It still sounds like you are taking the right approach to your relationship with her.

Do you have it in your mind if and when you will offer her officially to work on R if she continues on this path?

What does she think she is working towards? Does she feel hopeful about the work she is putting in? Do you feel she wants to become the safe partner someday that you need? What kind of words is she using in this regard?

Does she tell you why she wants to stay and what it would mean to her to someday get your forgiveness?

Her words make her sound like she’s given up. Maybe they lose their meaning on the printed page. It does sound like there’s some remorse in those words. Feeling that her dying 2 years ago would have been less painful to you than what she actually did.

Thank you for continuing to post here.

To me, the "wish I died" statement raises my ire. If what DHH says is true, that A's started less than two years ago it doesn't make much sense.

Is she looking for pity? Why not say, "I wish I made better decisions" or reached out to DHH or any other number of options instead dying?

To me, it comes off as a way to deflect, to not take responsibility.

That is just my opinion.

Do you have it in your mind if and when you will offer her officially to work on R if she continues on this path?

I think that we are already in a kind of R. Never talked "officially" about it. And about 1 year deadline that I talked before - I decided that it really doesn't make much sense. If she slips up, why should I waste my time? Also, there is no specific metrics how I can evaluate if she "has done the work", it all depends on how I'm feeling about her efforts, so if I feel she hasn't put/isn't putting enough effort, why stick to specific date? Of course, there's danger that she might try to surf on the very edge of "enough effort" and I will be in constant indecision if she's "doing enough or not" - but I realize that that's just one more thing to watch for.

What does she think she is working towards? Does she feel hopeful about the work she is putting in? Do you feel she wants to become the safe partner someday that you need? What kind of words is she using in this regard?

She's working towards us staying together in healthy relationship. Towards proving that she will be safe partner for me (even though it is impossible to prove in any other way than living your life and saying on the death bed - she proved she was true). She is sad when she asks me for guidance how else she can earn my trust and I answer "Prior to your third A I had pretty good idea about what I need. What you are doing now would have been enough. Now I have no idea". So in that regard she's not very hopeful. But she hopes that years and years ("doesn't matter how long it takes") of consistency from her will make that finally happen.

Does she tell you why she wants to stay and what it would mean to her to someday get your forgiveness?

Actually, I never asked her that specifically, I guess the answer would be standard "because I want to be with you, for you and the kids". She also understands that she might never get my forgiveness. Some things are unforgivable.

Stevesn: Her words make her sound like she’s given up. Maybe they lose their meaning on the printed page. It does sound like there’s some remorse in those words. Feeling that her dying 2 years ago would have been less painful to you than what she actually did.

Tigersrule77: To me, the "wish I died" statement raises my ire. If what DHH says is true, that A's started less than two years ago it doesn't make much sense.

Yes, I posted this bit out of context. It was said to express that I would probably be at much better state right now if she died instead of having affairs, she also figured that at, e.g. 1 year mark I would still be feeling effects of her death, but at 2 year mark I would be more or less healed and able to continue with my life. Tigersrule, there was a lot of "I wish I made different decisions then" from her.

About death as an escape - she says that she has this desire to just go to sleep and never wake up time from time. Acknowledges selfish component in such thoughts (and in some of her other emotions and thoughts, which I consider a good sign).

If it is not acting (note, I try to avoid absolute statements), then her guilt and shame is immense. She doesn't bring it up herself, but explains her feelings when I ask (and her reactions doesn't contradict it). She says that she's in pain from what she's done, and it hurts even more (this is not comparison, btw) because she realizes that she cannot get any consolation from me.

DHH

You’re such a great poster here on SI.

It’s been 3 months since you updated your thread, are things still going well with you and WW? I hope so.

You’re a good man....

Was sitting a long time thinking about what to write, but the main problem is that probably I don't really know.

Three months ago she started intensive courses to train for the job change (completely different area). I explicitly gave her a timeout on most of "fixing your shit" activities (like IC and reading), because that would have been physically impossible.

Before that we had and argument (for a lack of a better word), during which she showed that she still has much work to do even on understanding what needs to be done. Before that I estimated our chances at around 30%, and then it dropped to probably 7-10% and currently holds at that level. Some will probably say that 7% is equivalent to "nothing". The effect of this is that my feeling towards her are slowly draining. There were also several small incidents (that I don't want to share right now), but not of "now we are really done" kind (i.e. not of "NC broken, unaccounted time, etc." kind).

Other than that she goes out of her way to do things for me, to care for me, does not get angry when I trigger or rage - consistently for 6 months now. I do not consider as part of "the effort".

So I guess overall - not very good. Now that the courses are done, I expect her to resume her efforts. Let's see how this goes. I understand that R road is not a smooth one.

Hi DHH

Just to let you know that I often think of you.

We were in the infidelity trenches together. Brothers in arms if ever there were. I think that you made your first post just 12 days after mine.

I still have the odd dip in the roller coaster, as I have had to admit in a few other posts today, but I am in so much of a better position than I was 8 months ago, or any of the year before that.

I am so hoping that you can at least begin to move towards that. This last post of yours has left me a little sad for you. It seems as if you are still stuck.

Then I remind myself that it took me nearly a year to find SI and I was stuck for all of that time so dont feel despondent, feel hope that very soon you will get to the place I did and you will have a vision of a bright new future that you will be actively moving towards.

Hoping that this arrives soon for you.

DHH, sorry things aren't going so well.

I think I can understand what you are saying. Sometimes, the WS can "fake it" and do little things for you, listening to you, etc. However, that can be faked. Sounds like she isn't really building intimacy with you or really making choices that put you first. Realistically, the training is an example of that. She could have delayed it or something to show that the M was the most important issue. However, you agreed. That means she was doing the right thing. Looking at this from the outside, it looks a little like manipulation.

DHH

Thanks for the update. Will the job change help her be away from the AP(s) that she still worked with? Do you view the work she has done to make this job change happen as part of what she is doing to make R a reality? If so that can be a positive for your M.

Do you have scheduled checkpoint discussions about your R? If so the next topic should be “resuming the work” now that her training is done.

Do you think in her mind she is still ALL IN on wanting the M?

Thanks again for chiming in.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:32 AM, February 9th (Friday)]

Hey, thanks for replies! I'm on vacaion right now, so my private time is quite limited, I'll reply later.

"Later" took quite a long time...

I think that one of the things why I was postponing update is that I get triggered by this thread. Just don't want to live through DDay again (but still not afraid if another one happens). But reading through last few pages did no harm and created some sense of perspective.

Everything actually improved since last update. There were several important things that I felt she changed in herself (not full 180 change, but it looks like she's getting there). She has been consistent in her actions. I can say that she is doing "the work", but maybe not at the pace I would like to. E.g. I would like her to be in IC more, but on the other hand IC could use a more methodical approach to her problems, so I doubt that more frequent IC visits would give significant effect. But since I had all hopes lost previously to find good IC in our country (ones I contacted were of "there's always two sides to the story", "but let's look at what you did that caused the affair" variety) I'm reluctant to advice WW to look for another one.

Of course, she has quite a lot of work left to do to root out all the things that let her to cheat and then do all the shit post DDay1 and cheat again. But overall I'm feeling better. Infidelity is still on my mind all the time, it just doesn't hurt so much anymore. It is probably of what she does and not because I don't give a fuck.

She still works with AP1 and 3. Contacts are minimal, she reports every instance. Not even "Hi" any more. Last week she got a task that requires getting some info from AP1, she wrote email to AP1 and several other colleagues requesting it on Friday. AP1 replied individually with added PS. "I think I have done nothing wrong to you. We can communicate about business and maybe even say Hi. And as for the task, I will gladly share the information". What a moron. She didn't respond. He came into her office a little bit later, but didn't try to engage in personal conversation (WW actually noticed e-mail only after he left).

WW sent out a lot of CVs, but received no replies. The problem is that she wants to change work type and her lack of experience/age is getting in the way. Tigersrule, I'm not sure if that training was manipulation on her part, probably a bit, but not because of "I will do it to avoid helping my BH", but more because "I hate current job, I would like to do what I think I like".

Stevesn, we don't have scheduled discussions, but it kind of happens anyway. Usually when I trigger, I then point the conversation towards our "R status", "what is missing", etc. Helps to redirect my mind towards more productive things.

Ohforanewme, strangely, I don't feel stuck. As I said some time ago, D was a big scary monster prior to DDay2. Now it feels like fire exit I have the keys from. I realize that if I used it last autumn, I would probably be in a better place now. But you never know...

So now I have specific evidence that she is fucking other guys. As in "yesterday". Since I track her location, she did it at her workplace.

SO YOU GUYS WERE RIGHT. She is lying. And she is serial cheater.

Well, I hope you are right this time and she's not still cheating. Just because you didn't suspect for months last time doesn't mean your cheating detector is not much better now. Good luck.

[This message edited by ISurvived7734 at 2:50 PM, May 14th (Monday)]

Hi DHH

I thought about u the other day and almost bumped this thread to ask you you’re doing but then decided not to bother you, so thanks for proactively doing it.

Sounds like you’re still on a good path with R if that’s what you want. Only advice I’d give is to make sure you don’t let up asking for what you need. Another 40-50 years is a long time and if she hasn’t embraced this changed way of life fully it’s not gonna work for the long haul.

So if she’s back sliding at all, call her on it. It would be a shame to see old patterns from her to start showing up.

Tell me, does she actively apologize for the past and things specifically or does she hope it just all gets rug swept again.

Take care

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:58 PM, May 14th (Monday)]

Well, I hope you are right this time and she's not still cheating. Just because you didn't suspect for months last time doesn't mean your cheating detector is not much better now. Good luck.

ISurvived7734

Yes, I hope so too.

About cheating detector.

In hindsight, I can say that I felt something was wrong during her first two As. I remember when she asked me to scan and send her several prom pictures. That was prior to her As and for a female coworker. I couldn't at that time and forgot about it. Later, when she was in a middle of her second A, I remembered her request. I distinctly remember looking through the photos, looking at one that has AP2 in it and thinking about sending it with a note "this is the one you wanted me to scan?". I didn't act on it, sent her several others, she showed them to her coworker and, of course, sent to AP2. And yes, I'm positive that her original request was not for AP2 and that A2 didn't start much earlier (there is evidence supporting it). All this was pre-DDay1 and the only thing I knew is that they were friends on FB and she went to AP2's auto repair shop to change oil.

Prior to DDay2 my cheating detector was going off-scale-high. I was thinking about hiring PI, but then I got recordings, so I didn't need to.

Currently cheating detector shows no activity. I don't forget to keep it clean and always on.

BTW, about the title of this thread. No-one said to me specifically that she is still cheating or that she is serial cheater. "You guys were right" was about general understanding of SI what is remorse and how WS should behave in real R.

Tell me, does she actively apologize for the past and things specifically or does she hope it just all gets rug swept again.

Stevesn

Yes, she does apologize. She has to work on "actively" and "specifically" parts. "Actively" part - she avoids bringing infidelity topics up. Mostly she reacts to my moods and triggers (and actually is very sensitive in this regard - she reacts to slightest changes), her rationale was that she doesn't want to remind me when I'm feeling OK, but as we all know it is more likely "I don't want to talk about it because it makes me feel bad". She is working on this and I see some changes.

"Specifically" part. I had discussion with her about this few days ago. I explained that all this infidelity crap is too big to process in one piece. So you take one fact, one episode, one thought, one trigger at the time. And the same is about apologizing. You just cannot effectively apologize for whole crap. And that she cannot grasp the level of damage when she doesn't see details.

I watched our new neighbors that recently moved in. She is pregnant, they are tending their newly seeded lawn, planting flowers, adding touches here and there. Building their nest in other words. I remarked to WW that it is nice to watch them doing it. She started crying. "I'm sorry I tainted that memory about us for you".

Only advice I’d give is to make sure you don’t let up asking for what you need

I would like to rephrase it "don't let up expecting from her what you need". Because I probably do "explaining" more than I'm comfortable with. I said multiple times that I don't want to be her IC.

Hi DHH

Thanks for the update. You know by now that we all become friends on here, and take a genuine interest in how it is going with our shipmates. I know Stevesn once thanked me for updating my thread, now I know what he was feeling.

I am glad to hear that you are not stuck.

While I am still extremely nervous for you, I do know that by the time I came on here, I new what my path had to be, but I know that you always had hoped that yours could be R. So I am so happy for you that that is the way it seems to be going.

If your tone in these updates weren't so positive and more comfortable, I would feel so guilty. My path had actually taken me to a place of more happiness than I knew existed.

Only wish that I could have gotten here without the pain of DDay and the year and a half after, but I am almost at the point of saying that if I had to choose over again, I would have still chosen for XWW to have the A's just so that I could get here. Know it sounds crazy, but all this infidelity stuff is crazy making.

Update, but not about me.

WW informed me today that AP1 just had a new baby. Saw an order to grant paternity leave to him while looking for something else.

Definitely HB child (should have been conceived few months after I told OBS).

DHH,

Thanks for the update. I wonder if she wished to get pregnant or it was an accident of the HB?

What is your opinion?

Have no idea. Haven't put much thought in it.

I guess it was an accident. She must have been in the wildest part of rollercoaster ride at that time. And probably doing "pick me" and rugsweeping like crazy (judging from response I got from her). So everything is possible. AP1 is around the same age as me.