SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"Not Just Friends" describes very well how a friendship or other relationship turns slowly into an affair. You end up around someone you find interesting and attractive, and you hit it off. It a gentle ramp and I would argue it doesn't have a simple break point where it becomes and A, though certainly we can see after the fact that it has become an A. This is what allows the non-intentional cheater to walk down the slippery slope into an A. Now, once the fuzzy boundary has been crossed, not only is everything after an A, everything before it becomes questionable.

Was the kiss when the A started? Well something had to build up to that point right? or was it just a spark in the moment?
Was the first solo outing when the A started? Did they go to lunch intending it to be a date? or was it a normal lunch with a friend?
Was the admission of attraction when the A started? Did they mean to act on it? or are they just a person that give a lot of compliments?

"The slippery slope" narrative is one that I've read many times here on SI, including from the archives of my own FWW. I've got problems with it. I get that it's intended as a cautionary tale of how one can easily find themselves going in a direction that they shouldn't. But I believe that it has become a way for WSs to gloss over the fact that they actively pursued their course and willfully violated boundaries. A "slippery slope" suggests that with the slightest misstep any righteous soul could be carried against their will to a place they never intended to go.

I don't doubt that some EAs start with little effort - particularly online or work EAs where little or no effort is required to hide the activity and the evolution from appropriate to inappropriate interactions can occur in small increments. But the slope bottoms out pretty quickly. Soon boundaries have to be overcome and active deceit is necessary to get what they want out of the A. It's not a slippery slope, it's an arduous uphill climb to something they want very badly.

Another narrative you mention that I've read in my FWW's archives that triggers anger in me is this idea of "well I violated this boundary, now there's no reason to stop at the next one." That strikes me as borderline psychopathic thinking. "I lied and met him without telling my H so I may as well kiss him. I've kissed him so now I may as well fuck him. I've fucked him and betrayed my H so now I may as well kill H in his sleep and live happily ever after with OM."

No, that's pure selfishness. They know very well that every one of those steps is huge. They're telling themselves another lie to convince themselves that they're sliding down a slope and not climbing a hill.

I desperately wish I were living in the version of reality where my FWW kissed OM in that parking lot and then realized that was a betrayal and called the whole thing off instead of the reality where she vigorously worked at setting up multiple opportunities for OM to make the next move before they finally consummated the deal. Pretending like that was just one more slip down the slope spikes my BP.

Poor boundaries and an inner broken or dysfunctional need lead some people to the slippery slope. I think the slope is very real and getting on it is unintentional for most affairs. Once someone realizes they are on it, they either get off or they begin acting duplicitously. Right at that moment if they choose to stay on the slope. Do they also have cognitive dissonance at that very moment? Yes, I think so. They may not feel it quite yet if they are swept up in the excitment but it's there unless they have no connection at all toward the marriage.

As others have said, knowingly staying on the slope may or may not be when the affair actually starts but either way I think it is intentional at that point and there is no excuse for what happens next. The slope is not an excuse, neither are the poor boundaries or inner brokeness. They are factors that contributed to be reflected on and solved for, not rationalizations.

I had a moment on the slope about 5 or 6 years ago. I usually work to avoid being in that situation but it still happened. Plane ride, business trip. The woman next to me engaged me in conversation and I didn't have work to do so we chatted. It seemed harmless to me, just chatting with a fellow passenger. But it clicked and we kept up the conversation. I have developed good listening skills and I know they can make an impact. I assume that's what happened but for whatever reason, there was a connection. I felt it and enjoyed our conversation. She was attractive but I didn't feel like I was flirting in any way, just paying attention. It wasn't a very long flight and we were headed to different final destinations but toward the end she invited me to come visit her. I realized then I was on the slope without knowing I had been inching there, enjoying talking to an attractive woman. Maybe I was showing more energy than normal? I don't know. I got off the slope immediately at that point. I felt bad tbat I mzy have led her on in some way, not talking about my wife directly as I usually do? Who knows; but it was easy to get off the slope once I realized where I was.

Ya'll have given me so much to think about and process. Thank you. This thread has been cathartic for me. I want to read everyones input from the beginning again and Ill post later on today (last swig of coffee before I head out).

I am back and am digging in again after a quick bite for dinner. I have ruminated a lot on this thread during the day and would like to go back and respond to some posters....

The1stWife

I completely disagree on your last post.

Cheaters know right from wrong for the most part. Just like you know if you cheat on your diet you won’t lose weight. But you give in to the "want" or make the choice to eat the chocolate cake even though you know it’s not the right decision.

It’s making the selfish choice that is the issue. A cheater knows they should not cheat but they do it anyway. There are a million lies they tell themselves like "we are friends" or "it’s an innocent lunch".

Yes all those "innocent" encounters you don’t tell your spouse about and lie to yourself about.

Yes people grow up in dysfunctional homes and really bad environments. However - it’s not an excuse or reason to continue to lie and cheat.

My dad grew up with an alcoholic serial cheating parent. He’s not an alcoholic and he never cheated on my mother. I have many siblings. No one ever cheated on their spouse either. We just knew it was wrong. And not tolerated either.

You and mommabear1010 pushed back the most to what I have postulated and I deeply appreciated it. You see, I believed your very words for years, heart and soul. I did. My perception HAS changed a lot but I do hang on to the core of what you and mb1010 are getting at...personal responsibility, knowing right from wrong, being a grown ass adult (my words), not using FoO issues as and excuse to behave immorally/unethically. I agree with this, BUT, I would now include an addendum. You see, my friend and first wife KNEW they were wrong. There was never any question. They knew it. When I tried to approach them with the ethical, moral argument and to "straighten up and fly right" they had this far away look in their eyes like they heard the words but it did not compute. I guess some call this "the affair fog." Here now is my best stab at it. I believe they absolutely DID start out being duplicitous. Fully aware small steps to begin with as others have described but the deeper they got, something in them twisted/warped and they would no longer listen to reason. Reason which they had agreed with in the past over and over. Reason that they themselves had touted many times, but, when they themselves were confronted with the same, it was like they were listening to a voice from a far away land. It was strange to behold as well as maddening and a bit frightening. This is when CD takes hold. There is a point where the duplicity overloads the circuits and some kind of altered state of consciousness takes over. Some fall prey to this, others don't. Some snap out of it with exposure, others don't.

Seeking2Forgive

Thank you so much for your posts. You and I do have a lot in common and I read the posts from the links on your page. I am so sorry for what you posted and for what you are going through. I hope you have gotten to a place of acceptable transparency with your WW. We are also close to the same age. Though my first wife is now gone, I can definitely relate to your description of being triggered and your determination to search for more answers.

Another narrative you mention that I've read in my FWW's archives that triggers anger in me is this idea of "well I violated this boundary, now there's no reason to stop at the next one." That strikes me as borderline psychopathic thinking. "I lied and met him without telling my H so I may as well kiss him. I've kissed him so now I may as well fuck him. I've fucked him and betrayed my H so now I may as well kill H in his sleep and live happily ever after with OM."

No, that's pure selfishness. They know very well that every one of those steps is huge. They're telling themselves another lie to convince themselves that they're sliding down a slope and not climbing a hill.

Again, I agree with this. It IS pure selfishness. The only thing I think I would add is what that pure (and evil) selfishness does to the psyche of the cheater resulting in CD. Tragically, I believe that the fall out from CD permanently damages the psyche of the WS, whether they achieve remorse or not, to greater or lesser degree. They are never the same.

Trdd

You sir, hit me hard with this:

I had a moment on the slope about 5 or 6 years ago. I usually work to avoid being in that situation but it still happened. Plane ride, business trip. The woman next to me engaged me in conversation and I didn't have work to do so we chatted. It seemed harmless to me, just chatting with a fellow passenger. But it clicked and we kept up the conversation. I have developed good listening skills and I know they can make an impact. I assume that's what happened but for whatever reason, there was a connection. I felt it and enjoyed our conversation. She was attractive but I didn't feel like I was flirting in any way, just paying attention. It wasn't a very long flight and we were headed to different final destinations but toward the end she invited me to come visit her. I realized then I was on the slope without knowing I had been inching there, enjoying talking to an attractive woman. Maybe I was showing more energy than normal? I don't know. I got off the slope immediately at that point. I felt bad tbat I mzy have led her on in some way, not talking about my wife directly as I usually do? Who knows; but it was easy to get off the slope once I realized where I was.

The reason I said that is that I had much the same experience not too long ago on a business trip where my associates and I were returning to the hotel from a late dinner with clients. A female associate was walking next to me in heels of course and as we were walking up to the hotel, she slipped a bit and grabbed my arm. I grabbed her hand with my other hand and steadied her and asked if she was ok and she said yes. I let go of her hand and uncrooked my arm but she did not let go of my arm and we continued to walk to the hotel entrance. I thought maybe she was concerned about slipping again as the walkway WAS wet from rain earlier. As the doorman opened the door, I waited for her to let go of my arm and go in and I would follow but she did NOT let go. Everyone was chatting with one another but I noticed that some of her female associates were giving her sidelong knowing glances (I may be thick headed but I am not THAT thick headed) and was aware that she was giving me THE signal. Her female associates scatters elsewhere, probably to the hotel bar, and as we walked to the bank of elevators, she continued to hold my arm and chat while I was saying, "Oh Shit," to myself. I am very happily married man, adore my wife, would do nothing to jeopardize our life and marriage and knew that I was facing a test right there and then. When we got to the elevators, I turned to her, removed her hand from my arm, complimented her on a job well done that day (she HAD done a great job that day), wished her a good evening, turned on my heel and walked to my elevator which, thankfully, was waiting for me. Ill admit my heart was beating hard when I got on the elevator, but knew I had passed a test. So, yeh, get off the slope asap and reinforce those boundaries for sure.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 1:29 AM, Friday, August 19th]

Now, here is an offshoot of the cognitive dissonance concept that I know is a huge head scratcher for all betrayeds who are dealing with differing levels of remorseful WSs and that is the statement, "I never stopped loving you." HUH????? How do you claim love while doing the MOST unloving thing to your spouse that can be done???!!! I have heard and read it over and over again. Its maddening to hear. It is maddening to read. It does not compute! And yet, through sheer repetition, there must be something to it and I think that something may well be cognitive dissonance. Your thoughts?

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 2:53 PM, Friday, August 19th]

Love is poorly defined. If it includes respect, they didn't love you in the A. If it's just a feeling, no reason they couldn't believe it is true. Cake eating you know. I love them both, I can't decide, I'm so confused, etc.

I'm not using the slope as an excuse for the decision to cheat. I'm just saying plenty of people don't intend to cheat, but do it anyway once presented with the right circumstances. Not "any righteous person" but surely the weaker and more flawed among us.

Another concept you maybe haven't considered are those people who have a personality disorder. They are truly a different breed. They don'may prefer to manipulate the situation for their own gain. Don't care about you, how you feel or about cognitive disonance. They'll be as duplicitous as it takes to get the outcome they want.

I think we all love people and at the same time can also dissappoint and even sometimes hurt them. All of us.

Of course infidelity is such a trauma that it's hard to believe they still loved you; but I think it's possible. They failed in their commitment but they may still have loved you at the same time. I am not sure it changes too much, they still betrayed you. But if you beleive they did and do still love you then it could be the basis for R if you are interested in pursuing it. The longer the affair goes on the harder it is to believe I suppose.

I have a sense that many waywards just don't realize the depth of their betrayal. Swept up in their dopamine rush, they never actively consider just how deep they are plunging the knife into their spouse. After all, they won't get caught anyway, right? If you believe this is true, then it's easier to see how they compartmentalize and rationalize the A despite some degree of ongoing feelings for their spouse. But again, the long term affairs are hard to see this. The people who text their AP on their own wedding anniversary, sitting across from their spouse at dinner. Or sitting next to their spouse on the couch. Or right after sex. Those situations makemit hard to see any love remains.

Another piece to this is age of people in the marriage. Based on research it is now believed that emotional, mental and possible physical maturity is about 25 for women and about 28 for men. Think about the consequences of marrying before you are capable of making mature decisions. Every single woman I know who cheated and left the marriage was still in her 20s. Each of them said they were aware of the mistake within weeks, months of their marriages. In some cases there were children who had to deal with divorce while young. My mother left my father for another man and as an adult I was not surprised but my young children were devastated. They were very close to my parents.

So to get back to the question…..they were unhappy so when the OM showed up(all of them met their OM at work) they fell quickly and left quickly. No duplicity, no cognitive dissidence just moved on. Where the cd happened was buying the love stories and marrying the wrong person because they had not lived long enough to know themselves.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 2:47 PM, Friday, August 19th]

I think you're looking for rules/generalizations where we can't be sure of any. For example:

As others have said, knowingly staying on the slope may or may not be when the affair actually starts but either way I think it is intentional at that point and there is no excuse for what happens next.

My W put herself on the slope unintentionally and got into her A unintentionally. So what? It was still an A, and we - at least I - had to deal with the damage.

I guess my point is that the generalizations are essentially meaningless to healing. No matter what, even if 99% of all As stem from one thing, it's possible that one's WS's A was different.

IOW, to heal and to decide between D & R & whatever, each BS needs to figure out what they will do to heal and what they will do with their relationship with their WS.

If you're in pain, I urge you to get out of pain first. Speculating on the causes of the pain is not very useful until the pain is more a memory than a factor in your life. Many good therapist would say, in fact, that speculating on generalities is a way to avoid dealing with the pain directly.

First, resolve an issue. Then look for lessons to be learned from the process.

JMO.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:43 PM, Friday, August 19th]

I never stopped loving you is typical cheater nonsense. I was "lucky" b/c I got the ILYBNILWY speech.

You know I love you but not in love with you crap.

So typical. All of it.

A lot of married people have found themselves on the brink of the slippery slope. Myself included. Many years ago, when the kids were babies/toddlers and I wasn't getting much attention at home, I found myself in the company of a woman via a work project. She was not a co-worker. She was employed by a company that was involved in a project my company was also working on, so we were in frequent contact for a while. Talked a lot. Talk drifted personal. I found her incredibly attractive, in part because she was exactly my "type" physically. For various reasons unique to the two of us, even though I didn't say it to her, the fact that I found her particularly attractive was evident to her via other cues, and I could tell she took it as a compliment. We had some lunches and dinners in connection with the project. Then, after the project was done, we had a lunch. No reason for the lunch. Just social. She was dressed in business-appropriate clothes, but the outfit clung to her curves and accentuated her figure, a lot, clearly not an accident. She walked up the stairs in front of me. Dayum.

Lunch was going along with giggles and grins, but then I had an epiphany: "Butfor, what the Hell are you doing? You're playing with fire." At the end of the lunch, I very obviously reached out for the business handshake rather than move in for the hug, which I could have done. She read me loud and clear. We never spoke again after that lunch. It would have been super easy to move in for the hug. That likely would have led to more. She was single and my sense was that she was the type who didn't mind being with married men. The slippery slope. I stood at the precipice, looked down, and stepped back. Just a skosh less self-awareness and I may not have stepped back.

BFTG. Very cool post. It’s easy to see it after the fact. But during the "pre affair" period is when many cheaters rationalize "it’s just lunch" or "we’re just friends".

And then they "wonder" how they ended up in a hotel room or having sex in the car lol.

It’s not one decision that leads to an affair. It’s many decisions that take you down the slippery slope.

Thanks all. Thought provoking stuff once again.

This0is0Fine

Love is poorly defined. If it includes respect, they didn't love you in the A. If it's just a feeling, no reason they couldn't believe it is true. Cake eating you know. I love them both, I can't decide, I'm so confused, etc.

I would take it one step further. It could have been that the WS's and BS's definitions of love NEVER coincided and that the A revealed the dissonance in their understanding of love. That, to me, is a very scary thought. It would mean that my first wife (WW) and I had a completely different understanding of the nature of love and what it meant to say, "I love you." Another option would be that cognitive dissonance warps the perception of love so badly that the concepts of love no longer align which is also a sobering concept.

leafields

Another concept you maybe haven't considered are those people who have a personality disorder.

I have considered this, especially if there is a history of this and/or a diagnosis around the time of the A. It CAN go undiagnosed wreak havoc. One of the things I have wondered about too is how CD could masquerade as a personality disorder. There have been a number of posters who have postulated that their WW had gone through a bout of some kind of temporary insanity brought on by things like mid life crisis. During that time, they appeared to act completely "out of character". None of this is definitive, I know, but I have tossed this around quite a bit. None of this would apply to my WW, close family member, or my good friend (unless there was something latent that had gone unnoticed and undiagnosed but it had never been discussed be them or anyone that knew them).

Trdd

I have a sense that many waywards just don't realize the depth of their betrayal. Swept up in their dopamine rush, they never actively consider just how deep they are plunging the knife into their spouse.

Unless there was a lot of acrimony prior, I absolutely believe this. This was the case in with my WW, family member and my friend. As we all know, this does absolutely nothing to assuage the pain or minimize the damage. In fact, I believe this is what I refer to as as "trauma multiplier" for the betrayed. The fact that a WS tossed the equivalent of a grenade into the room where the BS spouse is and perceives it as a firecracker is baffling. Once again, is that an outgrowth of CD?

Cooley2here

Another piece to this is age of people in the marriage. Based on research it is now believed that emotional, mental and possible physical maturity is about 25 for women and about 28 for men. Think about the consequences of marrying before you are capable of making mature decisions. Every single woman I know who cheated and left the marriage was still in her 20s.

Interesting. 2 of the 3 instances of infidelity I was exposed to/involved in included women in their 20s and they stayed (in my WWs case it was a toxic attempt at R, but stayed nonetheless). The other was my friend who was in their 40s and they D'd....just speaking of the incidents I know of personally. All involved both duplicity and clear evidence of cognitive dissonance, were drawn out and messy. No clean breaks among them.

sissoon

I think you're looking for rules/generalizations where we can't be sure of any. For example:

As others have said, knowingly staying on the slope may or may not be when the affair actually starts but either way I think it is intentional at that point and there is no excuse for what happens next.

My W put herself on the slope unintentionally and got into her A unintentionally. So what? It was still an A, and we - at least I - had to deal with the damage.

I guess my point is that the generalizations are essentially meaningless to healing. No matter what, even if 99% of all As stem from one thing, it's possible that one's WS's A was different.

Agreed. My purpose for seeking clarity concerning duplicity vs cognitive dissonance on this thread was to try and determine if I had oversimplified my approach to reaching my WW, close family member and friend by framing it solely as a moral issue (lack thereof) and did not take into consideration their mental emotional state. I beat on one drum only....the moral/ethical gap in their lives. Would it have made any difference if I had? I don't know but the discussion has made me more aware. The loss of my friend has shaken me to my core.

The1stWife

I never stopped loving you is typical cheater nonsense.

That it is T1W, that it is. Just in search of that which pops that nonsense out of their mouths.

Butforthegrace

I stood at the precipice, looked down, and stepped back. Just a skosh less self-awareness and I may not have stepped back.

Yup, so true.....have to play a strong defense......always.

Once again, thank you all. This has been enlightening and helpful to me.

Been in a reflective mood today.....thinking through all that has been posted on this thread. I agree with The1stWife in that there are no excuses, only explanations for infidelity. IMO, I do think that both duplicity and cognitive dissonance can play a part in infidelity. What starts out as intentional duplicitousness warps the WS and CD plays its part. The tragic offshoot of all of this is the fractures that take place in all involved. In the BS, there is the split between both loving and hating the WS for what they have done. It is a true tearing apart with a commensurate level of pain. I felt the conflict when I was dealing with it. Children deal with much the same. They love and hate at the same time. They take sides. The family is fractured. The fracture spreads to extended family and friends. They too love - hate and takes sides. The fracture continues, widens, spreads, and many times becomes a chasm.

I hope I never have to deal with this disaster personally (God forbid) or with anyone close to me ever again, but, with the propensity of this crap, the glorification of unfaithfulness in popular culture, and the reality of a flawed human nature, odds are good that I will see it rear its ugly head again with someone I know.

I hate infidelity.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 7:54 PM, Friday, September 2nd]

Or, maybe Spaceghost0007 is right....people sometimes go batshit crazy. IDK.

One last note before I move on. If anyone stumbles across this mini thread that is trying to "work it out" with a non or semi remorseful WS, take it from me (and many otheres) dont do it. It will just prolong the pain and add wound upon wound, scar upon scar. End it, and move on.

The fear of loss keeps many a beaten down BS in a torture chamber of continued hurt. I just read TheWrongOne's thread again and Id like to think Id have the guts to do what he did had things continued as they were, but honestly, Im not sure. Of course, in my instance, fate paid us another dark visit with a long term fatal disease, so, no closure there, just more pain and suffering.

There are 3 types of people in this world:

1. Those who learn from others and do not make the same mistake.

2. Those who have to make the same mistake(s), but learn from it. We say of them that they had to learn the hard way.

3. Those who never learn and repeat the same mistake(s) over and over.

Ive been in the second category too many times and am endeavoring to move more toward the 1st. I hope you will too.

DobleTraicion out.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 7:28 PM, Sunday, August 21st]

In my case, it was a combination of both things: the decisions that got her there included a high degree of cognitive dissonance but there was a point when and where she HAD to know she was acting duplicitously. Regardless, she HAD to know there was a point of no return and STILL, she decided to keep going. We all have the capacity to separate harmless banter from flirting. Some people even confuse the two, but 99.99% of the time the other party cuts it short for them. Almost like we have a bullshit meter and we can sense when the other side is ill intentioned. NOW, when the other side doesn't cut it short for them... that's when the "situations" happen.

In my case, I had to deal with a wife who was always passive-aggressive for everything, had zero listening skills and a superiority complex. She also had a knack of separating herself from her actions, which is the part I had an issue with (big time) because she would do things that upset me and, when confronted, she would claim that that was not her intention. Where my wife crossed the line between CD and duplicity was when she accepted a coffee date from the OM to discuss personal things. They both worked in a school setting and one of them was transferring to the other's department but... still, you don't accept a coffee date, IN JULY, from a married coworker who, lo and behold, brings neither his wife nor any of his 3 kids to the date and then "forgets" to mention it to the husband for a week (probably because a neighbor saw them and mentioned it to my wife).

Thanks for the input Papi.

You said:

you don't accept a coffee date, IN JULY, from a married coworker who, lo and behold, brings neither his wife nor any of his 3 kids to the date and then "forgets" to mention it to the husband for a week (probably because a neighbor saw them and mentioned it to my wife).

I hear that Brother. I do.

I was just on another thread on this site where a guy is dealing with the ongoing non remorsefulness of his WW. Hes so desperate to stay with her that he keeps going into a staggering amount of mental gymnastics to the point of contortions. Its painful to read. Its especially painful for me because I was once him. I want to tell him that as bad as it is now, spending months and possibly years with a semi or non remorseful spouse is a soul killer. Its like standing in the middle of a debri field after a disaster of the WSs making of which they are taking little to no responsibility and saying (while your own body is smoldering) "lets go another round." But I digress.

My purpose on this thread was to try to get more clarity on this subject of diplicity and cognitive dissonance. To see if there were clues that I missed both in my case and in that of those close to me. Ultimately though, regardless of mechanics, the onus is 100% on the cheater.

This also leaves the BS to try and sift through the pile of crap left behind by the WS in order to determine if there is any way to rebuild, and to your point, do so with someone who would accept the invitation that youve described above. Maddening. Did the OBS ever find out? Are you trying to R?

I lost years to this insanity and was left with deep deep regret. Sadly, much was self inflicted for staying with a non remorseful spouse that I am left wondering if they ever really loved me. Life is way too short for that shit.

Me? Well, I have given her divorce papers but… a week or so later she called me sobbing uncontrollably and I succumbed to seeing her again and we agreed that the only way forward was by doing a polygraph test, which she did take and essentially said that she was telling the truth.

So, now I feel like absolute shit, not knowing what to do… with family members asking me to reconsider, posters in other forums calling me put for desperately posting the story here to see if I could get some clarity and pretending I’m playing with people’s time… ugly place to be in.