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morningglory ( member #80236) posted at 3:49 AM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

All Christians believe sexual immorality (adultery) is the only reason for divorce and that the partner that committed adultery cannot remarry or date and must be celibate the rest of their lives. (I dont mean to break the rules about religious debate please just delete it if it is. It's something Lutherans and Calvinists all believe. Catholics actually go a step further and completely ban divorce.

There is no such thing as what "all Christians" believe in terms of divorce, as different Christian groups have widely different views on divorce.

And as you have been told in this thread before, Catholics ARE Christians. To continue to say otherwise is to perpetuate anti-Catholic slander.

The Catholic church also allows for the dissolution of marriage in the form of annulment under a variety of circumstances. Even though they won't use the word "divorce", in practical terms, for the couple involved, it's the same thing. So to say the Catholic church has a complete ban on divorce is misleading.

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 Sakura2 (original poster new member #80318) posted at 5:53 AM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

I included them in the group of all Christians I just clarified their position is different. Rome only grants annulments if the marriage was not canonically valid. Divorce forbids you from taking the Eucharist as well.

My point was that he's concerned I'm just scared of having to be celibate. And that's why I want to stay with him. That I know it's adultery to "remarry" but that I don't love him so I stay. Especially since I already didn't follow the 7th Commandment he wants to know if I'm being honest. For context here are the Bible verses and what the catechism of the Catholic Church says about divorce.

Matthew 19:9

And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

Matthew 5:32

But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - 2384 - Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another's husband to herself.

I hope these aren't breaking the rules they are just Bible verses and an ex cathedra document detailing the beliefs for context

[This message edited by Sakura2 at 6:08 AM, Wednesday, May 18th]

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WalkinOnEggshelz ( Administrator #29447) posted at 11:48 AM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

Sakura,

You may discuss your own religious beliefs as they pertain to your situation, however please refrain from making comments or comparisons about others as that will spark debate.

Please do not make general statements as well regarding "all Christians".

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:19 PM, Wednesday, May 18th]

Me: WS late 40’s
Him: BH (HoldingTogether)
D Day: 7/24/2010
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

posts: 15361   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: Texas
id 8735820
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BraveSirRobin ( Guide #69242) posted at 12:52 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

Setting aside the beliefs of any denomination and/or of your BH, what do you believe? If your husband divorces you for adultery, will you remain celibate for the rest of your life? Does that, in fact, give some credence to his fear that you're only staying with him for practical reasons?

We have betrayed spouses here, religious and otherwise, who share the same fears that they are Plan A by default rather than enthusiastic choice. The WS doesn't want to lose time with the kids, or doesn't want to split assets, or doesn't want to deal with social stigma, or couldn't persuade the AP to end their marriage, and suddenly, it's "Darling, of course it's you I really love." That's a bitter pill, because how can the BS possibly know what we're really thinking? How can they trust their own instincts, given that those instincts led them to believe that we couldn't possibly cheat in the first place?

This is another reason the "whys" are so critical. It does not add up that you could love a man with such starkly doctrinaire beliefs, one who was deeply and openly scarred by his mother's infidelity, and want to cherish and protect him above all others -- and then blow some other man because you liked the attention. It doesn't make sense, and that's why his brain can't make sense of it. If the real truth is that you aren't (or weren't) so sure about your marriage, and now you're staring at a life of celibacy and isolation from your children and community because of your actions -- well, "Darling, of course it's you I love" could save your ass, and that makes it a lot less credible.

So let's stop talking about your BH and talk about you. There's a lot going on in someone who would blow up her world for a little attention from another man. Talk to us about how this happened. Talk about why you chose this marriage, what your life was like in it, and what made you believe that stepping out would cause anything but heartbreak.

WW/BW

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id 8735831
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numb&dumb ( member #28542) posted at 2:51 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

So I am not trying to wade into a debate about religion, but I have personal experience with religion based counseling myself.

When I did secratarian counseling every aspect we go to was exactly the same solution. Pray and ask for forgiveness.

I will say that religious counseling is just about the worst kind of help a BH could get after Dday. Most BH are told exactly what your husband was told. It was his fault you cheated. He was or wasn't doing something that caused you to cheat. It is exactly the same thing some WS say to their BS after Dday. No matter where it comes from . . . It. Is. Wrong. It is likely going to keep him from getting the help he needs because he thinks that is his only option. It is not.

Your husband has layers of trauma that needs to be addressed with someone who can offer more than one remedy. He likely has prayed on his own already. No new answers for him.

He needs a secular therapist, who has experience and training in modern medicine. I know this will likely fall on deaf ears, but I have to point out there are a lot of resouces to help your husband beyond what he already knows what to do himself.

God helps those that help themselves. KWIM?

Dday 8/31/11. EA/PA. Lied to for 3 years.

Bring it, life. I am ready for you.

posts: 5034   ·   registered: May. 17th, 2010
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Bor9455 ( member #72628) posted at 3:31 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

Sakura,

There is a classic tool we use in root cause determination called the 5 Why method. It is an iterative process by which the answer to the previous question feeds the "Why" statement of the next.

Here is an example.

Problem Statement: I ran through a red light and got a ticket

Why? I was late for work
Why were you late for work? I woke up late
Why did you wake up late? The alarm didn't work
Why didn't the alarm work? The battery ran out
Why did the battery run out? I forgot to check it.

It is a bit of a silly example, but it really is a useful tool to help find your whys. Believe me, I used that tool with my wife and I and it really did help us in our discussions and working through things.

In this case, your problem statement is that you had an affair and you begin to drill down from there. You've said that you liked the attention you got from your AP, why is that? It is important in this exercise that you think about your whys and frame them as I statements, because you choose to withdraw from your marriage and start another relationship with the AP. There is a great thread posted in the General forum about how gradually over time a healthy and friendly relationship with a member of the opposite sex can gradually morph into an affair that might be worth reading and doing some thinking about how that fits your situation as well.

Additionally, I don't know if it has been asked, but there has been plenty of discussion about your BH, but what do you really want? Do you understand your wants and needs or is as some have mentioned, the Plan A fell through so your BH becomes Plan B? Take your faith and all that out of it, if you and him separate/divorce, you don't have to be anything that you don't want to be. If you separated and chose to be celibate that is on you and has nothing to do with him or anyone else.

Myself - BH & WH - 35 years (05/24/1985)Her - BW & WW - 34 years (05/25/1986)<P>D-Day for WW's EA - October 2017D-Day no it turned PA - February 01, 2020

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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 4:21 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

Maybe it's already been recommended a few times, but read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda MacDonald. It is a short read and a great guidebook to show you what sort of heavy lifting you need to be doing as a rebuilder.

My view is that you were in a very typical affair. You met someone you were attracted to, that was interesting. Over time, you allowed your boundaries to slowly erode until you were in deeper than you meant to be. You told yourself, "I won't go past this line" then did, multiple times. You told yourself, "I can handle this and prevent it from becoming a problem" probably over and over. You vacillated between wanting to stop and wanting to keep going. You weren't planning anything. You were chasing a high and denying your own morals. This wasn't an exit affair. It was typical cake eating. As you said, you liked the attention.

That's just my view of it. I could be wrong.

Honestly, everyone like positive attention. We are hardwired to like it. To me, the most important question isn't "why did you like the attention?" it's "Why did you choose over and over again to go against your moral beliefs? Why did you allow yourself to lie to yourself and your husband?" Yes, it was for the attention, and because it felt good. But it was also because you chose NOT to make the right decision. What needs to change in your thinking so that next time you know you will make the right decision?

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 5:53 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

Great post ThisisFine.

My view is that you were in a very typical affair. You met someone you were attracted to, that was interesting. Over time, you allowed your boundaries to slowly erode until you were in deeper than you meant to be. You told yourself, "I won't go past this line" then did, multiple times. You told yourself, "I can handle this and prevent it from becoming a problem" probably over and over. You vacillated between wanting to stop and wanting to keep going. You weren't planning anything. You were chasing a high and denying your own morals. This wasn't an exit affair. It was typical cake eating. As you said, you liked the attention.

This is a great summation of how a typical affair goes. Attention feels good - most of us, even BS, can acknowledge that. The questions then becomes, why were you willing to sacrifice your ethics and morals for that attention? Why did you feel entitled or justified in crossing these lines? What are you doing to ensure that you are capable of being a safe partner?

Me: BS, Him: WS. Mid-late 30s.
Together 15 years, married 6 (11 m at D-Day).
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
5 years (and two toddlers) into R. Happy.

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 6:09 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

He wanted to know how I felt about what I did to him.

That's what he wants to know.

I'd like to know:

How do you feel and what do you think about what you did to yourself?

That's another question that you don't have to answer publicly, but you probably do have to answer for yourself.

You seem to realize you betrayed your H. Do you think you betrayed yourself? How? Why? What are you willing to change in yourself so that you don't betray anyone again?

Those are more questions you need to answer for yourself.

*****

IDK ... beginning a few minutes after my W revealed her A, I thought the she betrayed herself before she betrayed me and that she wouldn't have betrayed me if she hadn't betrayed herself first.

There's a small part of me that feels like her A is about me, and there certainly are times when I'd like to say and have said, 'My W cheated on me.'

But the real problem is that she fucked herself up. She betrayed herself. She came to realize this on d-day (which is why she came clean), and she decided she would do whatever it took to stop betraying herself, and that was the key to our R.

I think: My W's A was about her, not about me. Your A is about you, not about your H.

What do you think?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:21 PM, Wednesday, May 18th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

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 Sakura2 (original poster new member #80318) posted at 7:07 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

Walking. I said all Christians because all Christians believe the Bible but I understand.

Brave sir robin yes I would but he can't trust me to do so was my point. We believe the same thing.

"Talk to us about how this happened. Talk about why you chose this marriage, what your life was like in it, and what made you believe that stepping out would cause anything but heartbreak."

I will write about this tonight

Numb. His was a secular counselor

Bor I'll answer your question in my reply to brave sir robin later tonight but for the last part he wasn't plan b. I never thought about him when I was texting and emailing my affair partner just when I was blowing him.

Thisisfine I've been reading that book and you're right. I just liked the attention but never wanted to leave.

Sisoon I know it's about me. I just felt the need to defend my husband if that's what you mean. I think I betrayed myself for lack of a better word

[This message edited by Sakura2 at 7:08 PM, Wednesday, May 18th]

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DaddyDom ( member #56960) posted at 8:07 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

My wife and I watch a TV series called "Intervention", which portrays the lives of drug/alcohol addicts at their worst, at the point where it is destroying them and their families, ultimately ending in an intervention. It's tough to watch. Addiction and infidelity have a lot in common, in fact, I honestly believe that infidelity IS a form of addiction. They lie. They hide what they are doing. They gaslight. They get defensive as hell. They live double lives, and don't even resemble the wonderful people they were before the addiction. And more than anything, they seem to live in a fantasy world, one where the drug becomes more important to them than loved ones, or even their own dignity and quality of life. Sometimes, you'll see episodes where the addict meets up with another addict whose addiction is just as dire as theirs is, and they "fall in love" with that person. They then just reinforce the other's fantasy world story, and spend their days in lala land, usually resulting in one or both of them dying. But it's not really love, they aren't capable of that. You can't love someone else if you don't love yourself, and no one who loves themselves allows themselves to live a life of lies and deceit. They just want someone else to play the same game they are playing, to normalize their addicted thoughts and behaviors, and to make them feel "loved" regardless of their own self-destruction.

When it comes time for the intervention, the interventionist always separates the couple during the time at the recovery center. There is simply no way that one addict can heal while their enabler and partner-in-crime are there providing temptation and reason to stay in an addicted frame of mind. It's the same reason that teachers separate the two kids that can't stop talking in class. And what happens after the intervention is over (and successful)? Almost every time, the addicted couple that was so "in love" finds out that they actually had nothing in common other than the addiction, and break up because the other person is bad news anyway. The few, rare success stories occur when both people get help, and succeed, and work really hard at it together. It's rare as diamonds. But it happens.

I mention all this because I get the sense that your relationship is in a similar frame of mind. I don't know who your husband is and have never read any of his posts, so my only knowledge of him comes from this thread itself. That being said, in my unprofessional opinion, it sounds as if your husband has experienced some really significant family issues that may have left him with a fractured sense of what a healthy relationship looks and feels like. It was never modeled for him. He may have issues with feeling worthy of love, and may struggle to actually love himself. Again, this is just me guessing, but I make those assumptions based on my own experience as someone with severe FOO issues. I won't make any more comments on him other than to say this... I don't think he's capable of a healthy relationship, with you or anyone else, at this time. He needs to work on those issues in therapy. This isn't a crisis of faith, it's a crisis of self. Faith can guide him, but he has to take the footsteps himself. If he works through those FOO issues and learns what a healthy relationship and what a healthy self-view is like, then his world will open up, and then maybe he will be better able to accept both you and himself.

As a WS yourself, you already know you have similar work to do. You have to dig through those whys, and if you have FOO issues to deal with (most WS's do) then those need to be dealt with BEFORE you deal with the marriage and the infidelity. It's not a matter of importance, it's a matter of reality, as in, "you can't walk until you crawl and you can't run before you walk".

This was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I'll say it again. You have to let go of the outcomes for now. I know you love him and want to save your marriage, and we're all here to help support you in that. But you need to know that the work that needs to be done is going to take time, and you can't predict how long that will take, but it is rare for someone to turn around a lifetime of unhealthy relationship skills in just a few weeks or months. He's given you a deadline, and that's his prerogative, but it's not realistic. Imagine that you fell and shattered your kneecap. A broken knee takes time to heal. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, how many doctors join in, or how much motivation and positive thoughts you have. It will take months, at least, to heal. Now imagine someone telling you that your knee needs to heal in a week, or they'll leave. Well... how's that going to turn out?

That's my long-winded way of saying that you need to be willing to lose the marriage in order to have any hope of saving the marriage. The very best gift you can give yourself is to go get emotionally healthy. Figure out what it is in your head that allowed you to ruin your own dignity, self-respect and decency, and engage in an affair. Yes, it disrespected your spouse, but moreover, you disrespected yourself. Again, a person that loves themselves, doesn't allow themselves to do things that devalue themselves. So figure out what is eating at you and work through it in therapy. Learn to love yourself. And when you do, THEN you reach out to your husband (if he is also healthy and ready and willing) and you can build a truly loving, truly healthy relationship together. But he might not wait that long. And that's the part you have to accept.

To answer your original question, how are you supposed to prove you love someone when even they don't know what that looks like?

Let me ask you this. How do babies know their family loves them? Babies don't even have a concept of love, and they don't know what it looks like or how to ask for it. But clearly babies show us that they feel loved. Babies know they are loved because of how we treat them, how we interact with them, and most of all, what we sacrifice for them, or when we put their needs ahead of our own. We show love to babies by modeling it for them.

That's how you prove your love to your spouse. You let go of the outcomes (which are what YOU want) and instead focus on what he wants, and what's best for him, even if it is to your own detriment. I can't tell you how that will manifest itself however. For example, parents will work three jobs to send their kids to college. That's not because they love working three jobs. They sacrifice for their kids, because the kids matter more than their own ease of life. In the same way, when an opportunity comes to do something completely unselfish that will benefit him, and if the act comes from love rather than manipulation, then that simple action may be all he needs to know that he is truly loved by you. In short, if you love him, prove it. Not by words, but by deeds.

Me: WS
BS: ISurvivedSoFar
D-Day Nov '16
Status: Reconciling
"I am floored by the amount of grace and love she has shown me in choosing to stay and fight for our marriage. I took everything from her, and yet she chose to forgive me."

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 Sakura2 (original poster new member #80318) posted at 9:51 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

Our relationship was healthy. It's not like he thought about his mother everyday or brought her up randomly. Even when she was brought up because she was up to something, holidays, her health, her affair never was. Obviously he's upset He simply wanted nothing to do with her. I know his anger at her was brought out in his post but he says he wasn't suppressing it, he was just lashing out to vent. He simply told me that he wants nothing to do with her even now. He says hates her but he doesn't actually hate her. He admits it's hurts more that I did this after knowing what his mom did but he would still feel the same way about adultery if his mother didn't cheat.

But our marriage was healthy, like I said this wasn't something that ate away at him. We have everything in common, obviously our faith, interests in books and other media, exercise and health, worldviews in general etc. We actually met at the video game store we worked at. But we have a deeper connection than just our interests and views. I love him and I always will. If he gave me a reason not to love him or trust him the closest thing would be financial arguments that we always resolve within the day.

I can go deeper into this but his mother's affair didn't define him or his dynamic in our relationship.

I've let go of the outcome and told him I would support him however, but that I wouldn't give up even if he did divorce me. That's just how I honest feel. I did a bad job at this in the beginning since I didn't want to those him so I was uncooperative with his divorce plans.

[This message edited by Sakura2 at 10:02 PM, Wednesday, May 18th]

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BraveSirRobin ( Guide #69242) posted at 11:06 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

This is another post where 85% of it is about him. Try writing a post of at least three paragraphs what you do not mention him at all.

WW/BW

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id 8735924
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 Sakura2 (original poster new member #80318) posted at 11:59 PM on Wednesday, May 18th, 2022

If people could stop attacking and projecting on my husband I would.

Plus I've already said earlier I would answer your question.

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Bor9455 ( member #72628) posted at 1:42 AM on Thursday, May 19th, 2022

I’m not sure anyone has attacked your husband. Many posters have been trying to redirect you towards focusing on you and how you can learn and grow from the low point you seem to be in.

You came to the board asking for help with what to do in the situation that there may be a chance for reconciliation. Folks have consistently stated that you and your BH both have to heal and work on yourselves and then begin the work of assessing what is left of your relationship and what can be built as a 2.0 scenario, because relationships version 1.0 was ended when the affair took off.

Myself - BH & WH - 35 years (05/24/1985)Her - BW & WW - 34 years (05/25/1986)<P>D-Day for WW's EA - October 2017D-Day no it turned PA - February 01, 2020

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morningglory ( member #80236) posted at 2:14 AM on Thursday, May 19th, 2022

I said all Christians because all Christians believe the Bible but I understand.

By this statement, you are claiming that only certain Christians are authentic Christians, and that other Christians, particularly Catholics, are not. Stop making these bigoted comments, please.

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gr8ful ( member #58180) posted at 3:13 AM on Thursday, May 19th, 2022

I’m not sure anyone has attacked your husband

Lol. Here’s just a few from this thread:

I would say that you need to consider that anything you put in writing might just as easily be shown to a judge in divorce court. Proceed with caution and a clear understanding that whatever you say might not stay between you.

Implication: DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN! He’s waiting to stab you in the back

it sounds as if your husband has experienced some really significant family issues that may have left him with a fractured sense of what a healthy relationship looks and feels like

Implication: this dude is MESSED UP. Stay away!

I don't think he's capable of a healthy relationship, with you or anyone else

Implication: Get away from him NOW!

posts: 146   ·   registered: Apr. 6th, 2017
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 Sakura2 (original poster new member #80318) posted at 5:26 AM on Thursday, May 19th, 2022

"By this statement, you are claiming that only certain Christians are authentic Christians, and that other Christians, particularly Catholics, are not. Stop making these bigoted comments, please."

Again, all Christians applies to Catholics as well. All Christians believe those Bible verses, because they're in the Bible. Catholics believe the Bible. My confession of faith, the Westminster Confession, says that Catholics are Christian. When I offended someone before I apologized as it wasn't my intention. My previous post before the one you quoted referred to Catholics as Christian, I just pointed out the differences in their beliefs from my sect to provide context.

[This message edited by Sakura2 at 5:36 AM, Thursday, May 19th]

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 Sakura2 (original poster new member #80318) posted at 5:30 AM on Thursday, May 19th, 2022

Gr8ful. Someone also accused my husband of being manipulative among other things at the beginning of my thread. But upon looking at her posts it was clear she was projecting her husband's behavior onto mine.

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 Sakura2 (original poster new member #80318) posted at 5:32 AM on Thursday, May 19th, 2022

I will not respond to religious arguments anymore if nobody wants to read what I say then it's pointless. But more importantly it's breaking the rules so I'll apologize again for if what I said offended anyone it was not my intention

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