SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I will just say that I think a lot of your anger and judgement at her family is anger that you're not directing at your wife. You're very hostile and unrelenting when it comes to them. Somewhat valid, but I feel that you're using them as a way to release anger while forgiving your wife.

Should you be upset with her mom for going along with things? Absolutely! You don't want to address it with her, that's your choice. I personally would have a conversation with her just so she could hear what her words and actions did to me. I wouldn't entertain any excuse she made. Her anger towards her is completely justified, IMO.

As far as her dad, I actually don't think he did anything wrong when he stopped speaking to his daughter. She was destroying her family, breaking her vows, and he didn't want any part of that. While he couldn't take that final step to tell you about her affair, he definitely didn't support her. I don't understand your anger at him.

Same with her sister. She was actively telling your wife that she was wrong in her actions. She may not have told you, but she was advocating for you.

I think you may not have realized that you're contradicting yourself on your anger towards her family. You're mad at her dad for not being there for her, you're mad at her mom for being there for her, and you're mad at her sister because you think her speaking against the affair wasn't enough for you.

I only point that out so you can deal with the fact that you may be misdirecting your anger. It may catch up to you when you least expect it and finally be directed towards your wife.

The missing piece is how I felt like I was part of their family. Following the affair, her mom told me to call her anytime and that our conversations would stay private--that she couldn't imagine her life without me in it. A few days later she told me she couldn't speak to me without my wife being present. That was a dagger--she obviously did it because she didn't want us talking to be perceived by my wife as a betrayal, but it was painful nonetheless.

Again, I don't have anger for her sister; I really don't think about her at all. And I disagree on her father. I see in him the exact opposite of a good man; of the man I want to be. His silence throughout the affair, only to emerge when worried about his interests in access to his grandkids, makes him pure scum. I have only contempt for him and his wife.

As for my wife, I have all this anger for her and more, but it's not the same--because unlike with her parents, there's no love for them at all, only negative feelings. With my wife, I have 100x the amount of anger, but also infinitely more love. So it's complicated.

Are you also in IC doc?

My first IC session will be tomorrow.

If I remember right there was some history of purely on-line contact with single other women by you for a while, perhaps with a fetishistic aspect.

How does that fit within the chronology of what you now know of your wife resenting you and exiting the marriage. Does your wife know the detail of it? Has this been discussed in the joint sessions?

From my wife's perspective, she recalls first resenting me because she felt it took too long for me to marry her; then shortly after, even more significant resentment because I asked her to sign a pre-nup. Both of those things led her to feel closed off from me emotionally and in turn she weaponized her feelings by punishing me sexually. She became closed off to sexual advances and she began to no longer enjoy sex. In her mind, sex was a reward I didn't deserve. So not only would she be closed off to sex, but she would make her displeasure about sex known to me all the time in the moments following a sexual act.

I've noted these earlier in the thread (I think), but essentially she'd complain about sex hurting her, or cum getting on her/in her mouth, etc. Basically, the moments after a sex act were always reserved for her to make it clear it was something she did not enjoy. That had a profound effect on me--I stopped really enjoying sex acts with her because I felt guilty for doing things she didn't want to do. Shortly after our marriage (2013~), I briefly considered divorce, thinking there was no way I could live my life that way. But I felt I had made a commitment and thought we could work through her issues.

On my end, yes, I resorted to talking with single women online and exploring fetishes that my wife was unwilling to entertain. I wrote about it in detail earlier in the thread and I'm open to discussing it if there's any specific questions.

I kept her aware of me doing it, but she was uninterested and didn't want to hear about it--she viewed it as an equivalent to me jerking off to porn. In retrospect, she said it likely also made her feel inadequate, but she's not entirely sure.

Following DDay I provided her more detail of the conversations; specifically because one of the fantasies I explored with an online friend was her cheating on me with the AP--I wrote about the fantasy in September, after meeting him; roughly four months before she ultimately slept with him.

Even more creepy, the fantasy I described involved him fucking her in the back of his car in a parking lot near our house on two occasions. On DDay, before the real truth of the affair came out, she lied to me (wanting to hide the hotel visits and frequency), telling me that they had sex only twice, both times in the back of his car in the same parking lot near our house.

There are two facts: one, I am 100% positive she had no knowledge of my specific fantasy and she corroborates that; two, it seems virtually impossible for that to be a coincidence.

We have discussed most of this in MC, but neither the MC nor my wife thinks my sexual fetishes or online discussions with other women are very relevant to our current major issues (which I find odd, honestly)--I wanted to dig in more, but conversations kept steering away. I plan to dig in with my own IC though obviously.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 7:25 PM, Tuesday, May 24th]

Your inlaws marriage is a showcase for why staying for the kids is never a good answer. My first real love had parents like that. The resentment and toxicity between each other was easy to see even in my limited interactions in that household. I had an outsider perspective who's own parents had a real partnership where the love was never in doubt. This made me a poor candidate for that GF as I couldn't be controlling enough to fit in to her world view of what a husband was. She couldn't step up enough to share responsibilities as I was raised that a couple functions.
So to your wife resentment was a part of being married. Moreso than love. If it wasn't the delay in getting married it would have been something else. So was the husband seeking sexual gratification elsewhere. She is both attracted by your traits similar to her father and hates you for them. No one every said humans are logical. As I said earlier. FOMO only gets you so far. Eventually it's on you to learn healthier behavior and expectations.
If your marriage survives this, at some point you really need to have a candid discussion on what each others expectations are. Without any assumptions on implied ones. We talk about having to rebuild a new marriage often. Sometimes that would have been required even without infidelity. I suspect yours was one of those.

As for the Inlaws, I think you had unrealistic expectations of them. If you had preceeded directly to divorce, your WW would have remained their daughter and sister. Access to your children would come through her alone. You would be demoted to former. Possibly to be replaced. That means the family member always is just a little higher in the priority order than the inlaw. In the MILs case, your wife was casting you as her father. To both herself and your MIL. I lived that with my former BIL. During marriage we hung out often I've seen him and only a handful of family functions in the decades since.

Your inlaws marriage is a showcase for why staying for the kids is never a good answer. My first real love had parents like that. The resentment and toxicity between each other was easy to see even in my limited interactions in that household. I had an outsider perspective who's own parents had a real partnership where the love was never in doubt. This made me a poor candidate for that GF as I couldn't be controlling enough to fit in to her world view of what a husband was. She couldn't step up enough to share responsibilities as I was raised that a couple functions.

Interestingly, I spent a lot of time around them over the last 15 years and they appeared relatively happy. I'd see bumps on occasion, but nothing of much significance. Her father never showed anger--at most he'd give a disapproving glance. Even now, seeing how royally fucked up the whole thing is, I don't think the answer is that they should have divorced--they should have talked to each other about their expectations for sure, but divorce shouldn't even be on the table.

So to your wife resentment was a part of being married. Moreso than love. If it wasn't the delay in getting married it would have been something else. So was the husband seeking sexual gratification elsewhere. She is both attracted by your traits similar to her father and hates you for them. No one every said humans are logical. As I said earlier. FOMO only gets you so far. Eventually it's on you to learn healthier behavior and expectations.

If your marriage survives this, at some point you really need to have a candid discussion on what each others expectations are. Without any assumptions on implied ones. We talk about having to rebuild a new marriage often. Sometimes that would have been required even without infidelity. I suspect yours was one of those.

100% to all of that. She has always expressed wanting to be more like her father--rational, smart, successful--she idolized his traits all the while hating him to his core. She put all of that in me. Oddly, I'm really not similar to her father, aside from us both being fairly intelligent people. I embrace conflict, he avoids it; I'm an introvert and often cold, he's charismatic and very warm to everyone. She didn't seek out her father in a mate, she forced the comparison between the two of us to meet her needs.

As for the Inlaws, I think you had unrealistic expectations of them. If you had preceeded directly to divorce, your WW would have remained their daughter and sister. Access to your children would come through her alone. You would be demoted to former. Possibly to be replaced. That means the family member always is just a little higher in the priority order than the inlaw. In the MILs case, your wife was casting you as her father. To both herself and your MIL. I lived that with my former BIL. During marriage we hung out often I've seen him and only a handful of family functions in the decades since.

That's a big "if"--but of course, if I divorced, all of that would be true. But it's not up to them to project that outcome. And regardless, none of that defends her mother's horrible texts.

Truthfully, I'm getting irrationally angry at posts defending my wife's mother. Perhaps because I know I could resolve it by posting the conversations--I haven't done that because it would take me a tremendous amount of time and it just feels like it's easier for you all to take my word that they're horrific and indefensible. And most importantly, they were all done under the guise of my wife taking the affair to her grave (both said that repeatedly). While the mom was disrespecting me, she was also anticipating that I'd be her SIL the rest of her life. She's a bad person. There's no lens where she's not a bad person.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:47 PM, Tuesday, May 24th]

Doc. You just said a lot of important things. I would like to offer a bit of constructive criticism if I may on one specific thing you mentioned.

Gently- In the conversation your WW had with you about her dad catching her with her bf making out, your wife was looking to vent to you. She wanted to be heard.

How you reacted to her is how 99 percent of men do, as well as the former me, in that you tried to rationalize, justify, give advice, try to fix, whatever term you want to use.

As you work on yourself in IC, what’s very important is that when your wife vents to you about something, 99 percent of the time she just wants you to listen. I think you need to learn, as you move forward in IC and R, is that you need to become a better listener snd less of a fixer, less of the rational person in the room, and less judge and jury.

Less talking more listening. Even if you disagree 100 percent with what your WW is venting to you about, just be there to listen. You don’t have to agree.

Thank you Dude! Doc, this is one of the things that my husband does that drives me crazy. She does not want logic. She wants comfort.

Doc. You just said a lot of important things. I would like to offer a bit of constructive criticism if I may on one specific thing you mentioned.

Gently- In the conversation your WW had with you about her dad catching her with her bf making out, your wife was looking to vent to you. She wanted to be heard.

How you reacted to her is how 99 percent of men do, as well as the former me, in that you tried to rationalize, justify, give advice, try to fix, whatever term you want to use.

As you work on yourself in IC, what’s very important is that when your wife vents to you about something, 99 percent of the time she just wants you to listen. I think you need to learn, as you move forward in IC and R, is that you need to become a better listener snd less of a fixer, less of the rational person in the room, and less judge and jury.

Less talking more listening. Even if you disagree 100 percent with what your WW is venting to you about, just be there to listen. You don’t have to agree.

Thank you Dude! Doc, this is one of the things that my husband does that drives me crazy. She does not want logic. She wants comfort.

You’re spot on in general—and my wife and I have discussed this because it is a criticism she has shared with me. In my defense, often I say nothing and just listen, but you have to understand, listening to the same "venting" for years on end all about how she is a victim is very difficult for me. I did it often and failed at it at times too. I find it so hard to relate to the idea that listening to someone poorly assess a situation and explain it without any desire for feedback is helpful or comforting. It’s quite literally the last thing I’d want in a conversation—in fact I’m glad you’re pushing back here and providing me the criticism and I have no doubt I could be a better listener rather than a fixer, but admittedly, I don’t find it to be the superior virtue of the two.

All that said, in this specific example, my wife was not venting—she was light-hearted in the moment and telling me about a story from her past. I had no sense that she was upset or angered by it. In retrospect, seeing her text, perhaps I should have just nodded and said nothing. I may actually raise this to get her feedback as I suspect her interpretation is the same as yours and I misread the situation.

I need a partner that would then respond to me and tell me that in the moment—tell me that she needed someone to hear her and not psychoanalyze her relationship to her father in that moment. I can’t be with someone who immediately goes off to text her mother about what an asshole I am and then the following day goes to a dirty parking garage to swallow another man’s load.

My point is that I acknowledge I have plenty to improve on my end—I can be a more sensitive, compassionate person. I know that. And I want to be that. And I’m working on that every day and have been for years. But I don’t see the crime in what I did; I see a minor miscalculation.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:08 AM, Wednesday, May 25th]

On the other hand…..covert narcissism is a possibility

With space running out in this thread, I’ve created a new thread in the General forum: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/656633/my-wife-had-an-intense-highly-deceptive-affair-part-ii/

I really can’t thank everyone in JFO enough for all the help you’ve provided me these last two months. It touches me deeply and I’ll never forget the kindness that poured out from this community at my moment of greatest weakness.

For those that are up for it, I’d love for you to continue to offer me your valued advice as I continue my journey post-DDay.

Thank you, all.

Love,
Dr. Strangelove

In her mind, sex was a reward I didn't deserve.

You've said you can't forgive until you know why.

As a woman, reading this, I believe I know why. And I think she does too, but she's too scared to say it.

Reading what I quoted, she did it because she didn't love you. She was so detached from you, that she didn't care anymore. It's also why she demonized you to friends and family. She meant those words.

When he didn't leave his wife, she didnt want to be alone. You said as much.

She didn't care about your online activities, because she didn't love you.

I'm sorry. But I believe I'm spot on. She cheated because she didn't love you.

I will plan to respond to any additional posts here in the new thread in General (as we’re running out of space).