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AH, I see in one of your previous post, you referred to the other man as a pos. That is exactly what he is and what your wife chose over you. Hopefully, you quit being the nice guy as I sense a little anger in your rhetoric. Glad to see this coming out. Let it fly, but control it. It is your right to get angry and in this moment it is healthy. Express it, don't hold back. Holding it in will eat you alive and affect your health. It is time for you to think of you only and what will it take for you to feel better. Personally, go on the date and do not speak with your WW for awhile. She will find out about the date on her own and this will surely have her attempting to call regarding the date, but you owe her absolutely nothing. Let her squirm awhile. You have to do what is best for you. Stay strong brother.

I only mentioned the separation agreement bc I didn’t know if it would violate the terms somehow from a legal standpoint.

But otherwise I see no harm in taking a woman out for lunch or coffee to get to know her.

Thomus, the agreement to not date anyone else wasn't legally biding, it was just some moral restrictions that we agreed on.

how is taking this woman foe lunch or coffee is going to help?

how is taking this woman foe lunch or coffee is going to help?

It gives you a woman to interact with on a personal level who isn't part of this mess, your wife, a relative, the other betrayed spouse, etc.

You have no experience outside of this relationship. It gives you a low-risk look at what meeting and talking to a woman is like, just a glimpse that your wife is not the last woman in the world for you.

Not that you don't know that intellectually, but I'd be surprised if your heart has caught up to your mind.

It gives you someone to talk to who simply isn't a total self-serving liar and betrayer to you who is trying to manipulate you.

It gives you someone to talk to who you might like.

It's a step toward thinking about yourself, and what could be, without having to take an actual step.

***

You might fall flat on your face. Or you might gain perspective. Or you might meet a sweet, intelligent (pretty?!) woman.

One who hasn't stuck a knife in your back.

Don't be surprised if you find out that women kinda like you!

[This message edited by faithfulman at 7:26 PM, September 12th (Saturday)]

AH

I will say it again I don't think you should have agreed to the "no dating" with your WW, but you did agree to no dating. Your brothers wife is staying neutral because she knows better than agree with your brothers plan. Go fishing with your brother not dating, if you R your brother is going to be a problem for WW, like D is to you.

the agreement to not date anyone else wasn't legally biding, it was just some moral restrictions that we agreed on.

how is taking this woman foe lunch or coffee is going to help?

Can you maintain your integrity and take your brothers advice to go out with this women (date?), she does sound great and a perfect start to dating.

We humans can find a way to justify anything, I bet your WW thought this sounded great too:

In January 2018 he made a crazy move making her the exclusive agent for all his properties, she knew his other intentions but convinced herself it was all business

AH you really are a great guy and a catch for any women, I assure you at 44, financially set, independent, goal oriented. Women WILL flock to you with little effort on your part with effort you can be sleeping with a dozen women a week.

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 7:35 PM, September 12th, 2020 (Saturday)]

...how is taking this woman foe lunch or coffee is going to help?

It won't. Whether you R or D, your old marriage is over, and it's kind of like a death in some respects. There's a grieving process, and that process can't be evaded. Coffee with a new woman might be an hour's distraction, but that grief is still waiting to be worked through when you get back. Further, a woman with no kids at age 35 is either not wanting children at all... or looking for something permanent quick pace. You're not ready for all that. You haven't even decided whether you want to go through with your divorce yet.

It took me the better part of five years to grieve my husband, even though he's been with me every day. The guy I thought I knew, the one I held in my memory, the one I planned my future around.. wasn't who I believed he was. I accept this new guy in R, but in ways, it was like he died. I can't explain it, which is weird because I usually don't have that much trouble with words, but that grief is REAL. And it won't be ignored. It has to be processed out in the same Five Stages as a death... denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. These stages might come in different order and even repeat themselves until one day you reach a version of "acceptance" which sticks.

It's all a process. There aren't any shortcuts. Something traumatic happened in your life and it takes TIME to work through it.

AH. I think you know this. Please don’t complicate your life further right now by going on a date of any kind with any other women.

If you’d have a big desire to do this, which I don’t believe you do, but if you did, you should move forward and complete the D first. Then you would be free to date anyone you want.

And by the way, dating does not mean picking up a woman in a bar. I am sure that once you did make a decision to move on, the women will find you.

But regardless, You have enough on your plate right now. You are working on a process to decide what path is right for you and determine if your WW is someone that you can see as a long term partner again.

If in the end you decide she is not and work to end your relationship, there will be plenty of time for you as a 45 or even 46 year old to find someone new in your life.

However if you decide that she deserves a chance and the possibility of R is what you want to pursue, adding the element of other women into the equation will make that exponentially more difficult.

You are on a painful path, but one that will eventually lead you to clarity of what you want your life to be the next 40 years or so.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:44 PM, September 12th (Saturday)]

However I was blind too and maybe arrogant too, I thought I had everything under control and didn’t have to check on her.

We have no choice but live our life and assume some basic decency from the people around us. Do you worry, when you buy a coffee, that the employee spat in it? Do you worry, when you go for an oil change, that they cut your break lines?

Can you imagine a world where people agree to get married but are very paranoid about any possibility of cheating? Why bother with marriage then?

You were not blind, you were normal.

For us BS, whether we R or D, we are more vigilant, that’s true, but we are not paranoid (well hopefully for most of us). We can’t live a life of constant anxiety. “She went to buy milk and it usually takes her 9 minutes, it’s been 11 minutes OMG OMG!!!”

And, besides, it’s not like they teach you about infidelity in college.... welcome to your first semester!!! You curriculum:

- Math 101

- Newtonian physics

- How to spot signs of infidelity 101

- English 101

how is taking this woman foe lunch or coffee is going to help?

It certainly isn’t going to hurt I assure you.

AH for better or worse you agreed not to date. 6 months isn’t going to make a big difference in the availability of women. There are so many out there you would be perfectly happy to be with who will bring you joy. there’s no rush. I don’t see the harm in going to coffee or lunch with this woman if she understands your situation. I will say you don’t owe your WW any loyalty. She already divorced you - the rest is a formality. But I also want you to think about working on yourself and taking some time to just be with yourself. The drinking won’t help.

I’d suggest you don’t view spending time with women as dating or that you are somehow committing yourself to a new relationship.

It’s perfectly acceptable to meet new people, women included with the goal of making new friends, having someone to have a nice dinner etc. Just be honest with whomever you are meeting about what you want. There are plenty of women out there who would just be happy to meet for a nice lunch with no further strings. They just need honesty around what to expect.

I think that it would do you good to take up your brothers offer once your 6 months are up (you did agree after all) and see what it’s like. If your WW is the only person you have gone out with, it’s understandable you’ll be a bit scared to get out there again, but good decisions aren’t driven by fear - you want to R or D based on getting to a point of knowing what you want, not because you are scared of being alone or dating again.

AH, in my humble opinion, given your situation with your WW (and trying to sort things through on which direction you want to go) as well as you stating that you have no experience with women (you've only dated and been with your wife your entire adult life) I think it would be in your best interest to refrain from spending time with any new women (whether it be a date, or coffee, or to share your story with) as it will only stir up new emotions.

You have enough going on in that head of yours (rightfully so) and the last thing you need is anything that will cloud your thinking as you decide if you want to divorce or attempt reconciliation with your WW.

It might be different if in the past you had experience with other women, but by your own account you don't and thus throwing yourself (or dipping your toe) into an arena (seeing other women or dating etc) that can be VERY confusing even for a seasoned pro, would be undertaking something that you should stay away from (for now).

Again this is just my opinion, but it would behoove you to keep your focus on you and your situation with your WW and trying to determine what road you want to go down. If it's to attempt R so be it and if it's to D then at some point after putting the wheels in motion on this there will be time to start spending time with a woman.

At the end of the day you are still married to this woman. Yes she killed your marriage, but until you decide what you're going to do stay true to your honor as a man and your vow ("foresaking all others").

So you go "just have coffee" with another woman as a "friend". It might be refreshing and give you an idea what it would be like to spend time with another woman but at the end of the day all it's going to do is add more thoughts and emotions to your situation which isn't going to be a valuable tool to help you sort through what AH wants to do and how you're going to move forward.

Just my two cents but AH you do you and what works for you.

At the end of the day you are still married to this woman. Yes she killed your marriage, but until you decide what you're going to do stay true to your honor as a man and your vow ("foresaking all others").

I don’t disagree with the advice you’re being given to put on hold any potential dating (although taking a lady for coffee isn’t like you’re wining and dining her and you can be upfront about your situation) but I do disagree with this above.

The only way in which you are “married” to your WW is a tissue thin piece of paper. The divorce is a mere formality. She already divorced you half a decade ago. She shredded everything else including the vows. They are torn asunder. Null and void.

It’s a sick joke to guilt a betrayed husband with mention of the vows.

It’s a sick joke to guilt a betrayed husband with mention of the vows.

I doubt that those comments were intended "as a sick joke to guilt a betrayed husband".

More likely, it was a reminder that it's good to check in with one's conscience. For example, MY integrity is not decided by the actions of others. So when my WH "divorced" me without the benefit of informing me, acting as if he were single when he wasn't, I was still married because I honor my word. MY vows hold even when his didn't because they meant something to ME. And I'm not the only one. There are quite a number of people whose word is their bond and consider their personal honor to be important.

^^^^^

Exactly Chamomile!!!!

I'm with Thumos on this one. SI gives out a ton of great advice, but it also promulgates a ton of fallacious thinking, like trusting the magical ability of some unknown therapist to make a lying cheater into a good "safe" spouse, or that marriage problems are always 50/50.

One of the other false premises is that somehow you can chop down a tree twice.

In this case the "marriage tree" has not only been chopped down, it has been completely torn out by its roots.

If somebody wants to "honor their personal vows" to something that doesn't exist, that is their personal choice and I won't tell them they can't follow their conscience.

Personally, I think wedding vows are a contract between two people. When one person unilaterally cancels that contract, the contract is cancelled. It is up to the betrayed person as to how they choose to live their "uncontracted-life" until they divorce or attempt to reconcile.

***

With regard to this situation:

One one hand, AHguy can chart a course to remain "shut-in" while his divorce or reconciliation plays out, giving him no mental relief from this horror show he has been thrust into, allowing him absolutely no perspective on what his life can be, and subjects him solely to the sway of all kinds of forces from people who don't have to live his life but want him to do what they want him to do: His on-paper wife, The pastor, etc.

This allows him no perspective on what his life could be. It gives him incomplete data with which to make his decision.

If he goes the shut-in route and he chooses reconciliation, he doesn't have any idea of what the other path **might** look like which could leave him with doubt as to his decision.

Or, if he chooses to divorce, while he is "honoring his vows" to a marriage that has been canceled without his knowledge for at least 3 years, he remains cut off from the world for months or years while the divorce plays out, under constant stress.

Then one day, after living isolated in the dark for all that time, he is all of a sudden thrust out into the high-noon sun of unmarried life, unprepared, with no time to acclimate, no idea of what he is walking into.

NOTE: I have not suggested that AHguy should run out and start romantic relationships and start fucking women outside of his on-paper-marriage.

AHguy - despite the overly moralistic claims of some persons, if you decide to see this woman, you aren't cheating on anything. You are not demonstrating poor moral character. You are simply moving on with your life while you decide what you need to do with your life to live happily.

You can decide you are not ready and wait. Maybe you'll find another opportunity somewhere down the line. This is your life and your choice.

My point of view is just take a look. Not only will it give you a few moments to not be caught up in this mess, it will tell you a bit about where your head is.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 10:17 AM, September 13th (Sunday)]

IIRC, AH and his wife have a separation agreement. One of those terms is no dating.

No matter how you try to twist the wording, going out to lunch with another woman, a woman his brother seems to be dying for him to go out with, is a date.

If AH wants to meet another woman for lunch,that's fine. Even though he agreed he wouldn't date. It all boils down to whether AH is a man of his word, or not.

Now, if this were a true separation, it might be different. One in which they are truly separated. No questions are being asked so he can decide if he wants to attempt R. Lawyers have been hired,and divorce is imminent. Thats different than what is taking place. He is still freshly wounded. He is contemplating R. He is asking questions. He has not said the marriage is officially over.

Regardless,as I said, he made an agreement. We all already know her word means nothing. But..does his?

AH,

Going out with other women will tremendously help you heal.

Even if you are doing something innocent, if you realize, or even wonder if a woman is flirting with you, whether it is a lunch or in an aisle at the supermarket, it will help heal your ego that you wife so thoroughly destroyed. And when you realize that little AH twitch when talking to a woman, meaning that you desire her, you will be well on your way to recovery!

Stay strong and do what is best for you!

IIRC, AH and his wife have a separation agreement. One of those terms is no dating.

No matter how you try to twist the wording, going out to lunch with another woman, a woman his brother seems to be dying for him to go out with, is a date.

If AH wants to meet another woman for lunch,that's fine. Even though he agreed he wouldn't date. It all boils down to whether AH is a man of his word, or not.

Now, if this were a true separation, it might be different. One in which they are truly separated. No questions are being asked so he can decide if he wants to attempt R. Lawyers have been hired,and divorce is imminent. Thats different than what is taking place. He is still freshly wounded. He is contemplating R. He is asking questions. He has not said the marriage is officially over.

Regardless,as I said, he made an agreement. We all already know her word means nothing. But..does his?

Exactly. AH himself has even said it is a moral question for himself, so why anyone would encourage him to do something that (1) he agreed not to do, and (2) has some sort of internal conflict, is beyond me. I know that we all want the best for AH, and we have different ideas of how to go about it, but this is pretty much black and white....and some people are trying to make it gray.

IIRC, AH and his wife have a separation agreement. One of those terms is no dating.

No matter how you try to twist the wording, going out to lunch with another woman, a woman his brother seems to be dying for him to go out with, is a date.

If AH wants to meet another woman for lunch,that's fine. Even though he agreed he wouldn't date. It all boils down to whether AH is a man of his word, or not.

Now, if this were a true separation, it might be different. One in which they are truly separated. No questions are being asked so he can decide if he wants to attempt R. Lawyers have been hired,and divorce is imminent. Thats different than what is taking place. He is still freshly wounded. He is contemplating R. He is asking questions. He has not said the marriage is officially over.

Regardless,as I said, he made an agreement. We all already know her word means nothing. But..does his?

I think you make a very good point Hellfire.

That is why I said above that he should be honest about what he is calling it (A date, regardless of whether it's only talking to someone) and let his wife know (Tell, not ask) that he is changing the separation agreement that she already annihilated.

I disagree as to whether if AHguy is still asking questions being material.

AHguy needs to be fair to himself, and worry about himself.

Exactly. AH himself has even said it is a moral question for himself, so why anyone would encourage him to do something that (1) he agreed not to do, and (2) has some sort of internal conflict, is beyond me. I know that we all want the best for AH, and we have different ideas of how to go about it, but this is pretty much black and white....and some people are trying to make it gray.

Good question, I can clear this up.

The separation agreement was an arrangement that his wife negotiated to her advantage that took away his options, making it almost seem as if they were just a couple struggling with marriage who were separating, as opposed to dealing with her cheating, and she was still lying to him (And also continues to lie).

It made requirements of him like seeing the Pastor while also boxing him in with restrictions and waiting periods etc.

As far as AHguy struggling with the moral end of it, he is struggling with every aspect of this horrible situation.

We are all giving our point of view. You may be under the impression that this is black and white. It seems black and white to me too: his wife ended the marriage and he no longer has any obligation to her.

But in truth it isn't. There is plenty of gray.

Neither you nor I, nor any other poster are the the true moral arbitrator of the universe nor AHguy's life.

He has to make his decision. I support him moving on with his life and telling his wife that he is moving on with his life.

But that is just me and my point of view.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 12:30 PM, September 13th (Sunday)]