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6 years ago she chaged, MLC hit her, so she start having resetment agaisnt HA as he didnt chaged in the way she did. It grew by magnifiying HA faults and letting her mind rewrite her marriage. and one day resentment cooled off and she was free! no more feeling for HA, she was free to pursuit her happines...that why HA was not in her tattoo, her mind or her heart. the oposite of love is not hate, is indiference! thats why I think she is not in love, or even care for HA, so the obvious things to help HA are out of her radar. (Besides the Lost of her romantic future that takes her head space)

[This message edited by Mrhealed at 2:32 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]

Mrhealed: Basically you are saying she didn't cheat with the thought she would want to cause hurt to AHguy, but she just didn't give a shit.

Personally, I think that falls into the same level of badness as intent, because any person with a basic level of intelligence and decency know that they deeply hurting their spouse through these actions.

"I just threw rocks out of my 10th floor window because it was fun, but I didn't intend to hurt anyone!"

***

Your contention that she never cheated before, not even a one-night stand, is completely speculative and not based on anything really.

I admit that our speculation that it wasn't her first rodeo is alps highly speculative. However, her behavior over 6 years would indicate a pattern of increasing disregard for her husband and wedding vows, particularly with regard to seeking out potentially sexually-charged atmospheres such as frequent nights out with her girlfriends.

I would bet that she had a series of increasing transgressions that led her to being this sleazy rich guy's paid-for sidepiece.

I would also surmise that he didn't target her as his sidepiece for no reason. Guys like him place their bets on women they think are receptive to cheating.

Signals are are broadcast and they are received - he didn't randomly pick her.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 2:37 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]

No one here, none of us, know whether AHGuy”s wife intended to humiliate him, or not.

None of us is omniscient, and thus know what she thought, or felt. Only she truly knows this, and I bet AHGuy has a decent idea of what she intended.

If you know she intended to humiliate him, or that she lacked this intention, I’d like you to share this weekend’s lottery numbers with me via private message. If you can’t do this... STFU, because you don’t know.

She didn't intend to humiliate him,because she never thought he would find out.

No. While her om was making jokes about her husband, and she was laughing, she never thought he would find out. When OM was openly dating her, in public, going on double dates with her friend that would also often come to AH's house and smile at him,she never intended that he would find out. When the OM was sending her flowers to the office,every week, signing the card with a name that wasn't her husband's, she never intended that he find out. When others at the gym knew she had been sexually harassed, and her boyfriend had sent his personal trainer there to train her, she never intended that her husband would find out.

She was publicly dating another man,and everyone in her inner circle knew. Except her husband.

It really doesn't matter if she intended to humiliate him. He feels humilated. Most BS do. I sure as Hell did. Whether my husband meant to humiliate me meant squat. He did humiliate me.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:59 PM, September 10th (Thursday)]

Generally, intent can be inferred by behavior. Some things she did seem to indicate she may not neccesarily intended to humiliate her husband, as she hid things from him vs rubbing his nose in the affair.

Although the mockery about the irony of having, vs rubbing his face in him unknowingly assist in making a warm, cozy love nest is very cruel. One does not do that to others without a certain level of depravity/lack of empathy. Same with double dating with her friend and her husband. These were gratuitous acts, not necessary for the hook up, but, I guess they added to the thrill.

And, wasn't there a fair amount of gaslighting? 6 years being distant and absent surely must have increased his suffering and had him questioning his perceptions. That is no fun, I know, personally.

All this arguing about whether she intended to humiliate him is a distinction without a difference.

What she did to him was humiliating him without his knowledge, and then when he found out, it all landed.

IMO humiliations doent comes from the humiliated. It comes from the act It self when display infront others, becasue without audience is just a secret.

Feelings humiliated is a total different thing. Some one could be public humilated and not feel that way.

In HA case, the spectator was the perpetrator: OM. And WW was like D Who didnt give a single thougth about HA.

Feelings humiliated is something very specific for ecahone of us. HA may feelbthat way or not.

None of us is omniscient, and thus know what she thought, or felt. Only she truly knows this, and I bet AHGuy has a decent idea of what she intended.

but we can infer some things through easy logic. You'd have to be a real dumb-dumb to not understand that moving into an adulterous relationship is a risky maneuver in which you're putting your marriage and family at stake. Every single WS understands this, and we're whistling past the graveyard to pretend otherwise. The entire point of a film like "Fatal Attraction" is in part: "this is the risk. We all know it."

Anyone with even a slight modicum of intelligence and self awareness knows adultery is a transgression with tremendously toxic fallout if exposed. For adulterers this seems to increase their enjoyment in many cases, PRECISELY because it is such transgressive and risky behavior.

It is exactly the fact that it risks so much and the chance for fallout is so high that creates the excitement.

Ergo, any act of infidelity is a risk-taking maneuver in which the WS has done a cost-benefits analysis and decided it was worth the risk. The risk is losing their family, their marriage and hurting their spouse.

They know this. Do they do this analysis on a calculator? Obviously not. But it crosses their mind -- even the deeply narcissistic ones. The reason we find this so upsetting is because this inevitably leads us to conclude we weren't worth all that much to them and they didn't regard us all that much.

And I agree with faitifulman that we're arguing about angels on a head of a pin with this stuff. The acts humiliated and hurt AHGuy beyond compare. Now he's dealing with the fallout. Intent matters, but what really matters is that his WW willingly blew up her marriage and now she's scrambling around like crazy to try to control and manipulate and minimize. She certainly has intent now, doesn't she?

that was insightful on why he was left out of the tattoo.

i wonder if his WW and the OM ever future faked about how

once WW left her BH she would add the OM name to this

tattoo.

having an affair is humiliating for the BS. on different levels.

there is a difference between keeping thing hidden from the

BH, and everyone else as well.

then there is letting her inner circle know, co-workers know,

and mutual friends know an example having double dates.

this WW actions showed that she was totally disrespectful to her BH.

when this WW says i was not trying to humiliate you, she

confuses not openly rubbing her PA in her BH face as

being different from the way she disrespected and humiliated

her BH behind his back as with fixing the furnace and

her double dating with the OM and mutual friends.

it never fails how many WS believe that their BS will never

find out.

It is a very, very rare A that is done with intent to humiliate or inflict trauma. When a WS says something like "...I want you to know I truly didn't intend on hurting you.." the point is moot. If a person knows that what they are about to do will cause harm, trauma, feelings of humiliation, etc. to their spouse, and they do it anyway, the notion that not doing it for that purpose seems irrelevant.

The world is full of people that do others harm while assuring them that they did not harm then intentionally. When you know what you are doing is harmful, intent is a lame duck distractor.

AH, you get to choose. You get to decide what you can live with and what you can not. It is your life. You get to live it.

With all internet forum's you get to choose what you need to move on.

With some poster's, especially if they are recent BS, they carry all their current emotions into their daily life, as to be expected. It is the most tragic event, most times even eclipsing the death of a loved one, that they will ever experience. You may read this anguish in what they say.

Take what you need and leave the rest

I will say this. My xWW carried on an Affair with an old high school boyfriend. She carried a burner phone but left it at work each day. It was a small company and everyone there knew that the phone she kept under her desk and brought out when she got there each day was to talk to her BF. They also all knew me. It was humiliating and eventually she had to quit that job in order to get even close to Reconciliation.

It was not her intent to humiliate. Her reason for being so blatant about the Affair with these people, and I suspect this is the same for Mrs AHG, is that she was leaving me as soon as the POSOM gave the word that he was leaving his wife and it really didn't matter what any of them thought or knew about me because in short order she would be Mrs POSOM and not Mrs beenthereinco and I wouldn't be around these people again. Of course the POSOM really had no plan to leave his wife and when I contacted her he dropped my xWW in a heartbeat.

One of the things that tears me up every time I hear it, is when friends, family, friends of the cheater, and others know what's going on but they never tell the betrayed spouse. It's amazing that they can live with themselves. Your WW was double dating with her work 'friend' and the husband. They both knew exactly what was going on yet they said nothing. People like that are absolute scum. If a person cares about you, they'll be honest even when they know it's going to hurt you. There's no valid justification for staying silent when you know a person is being hurt or used, whether you know them or not.

AH, I have followed your story for awhile now and it is hard to read it sometimes. The pain is unimaginable and I do wish you the best outcome. It just seems your wife grew tired of the man who worked his ass off for her and the family. You seem to be that nice guy that doesn’t need to dress up and socialize, your life evolves around your work and your family. While my perception which could be totally wrong, your not the romantic type, but your love is expressed through your work and providing for others. Somewhere along the line your wife decided that vows did not mean a damn thing to her. Rather than divorce, she chose the selfish path to deceive and humiliate you for her desire for passion, want to be youthful again life along with social standing. You sir are one helluva better man than I. Her fantasy world has collapsed and I have not seen one iota of evidence that she loves you. All I can see based strictly on what you are revealing, is a woman who is trying to save face after being another mans mistress for a minimum of 2 years. Can you live with knowing that. This is the only thing you need to decide in the timeframe you have set. Good luck and god bless you. Btw, I guarantee there are women out there just waiting to find a good man as yourself.🙏👍

Just to put some of this "she was going to leave" stuff in perspective... no one here knows that. No one here can say for sure whether she would have left for real or not. Regardless of whatever she might have said, it's still supposition.

There's a commonly used term utilized in discussion of affairs called "future-faking". What that means is that one (or even both) affair partners don't really mean it when they're planning their future together. It's part of the fantasy; frequent discussion about where they'll live, what they'll do, the places they'll go, who all will be there. But when push comes to shove, they don't want it and they don't mean it. It's just part of the excitement of the illicit affair.

I KNOW that future-faking is a thing because my WH engaged heavily in it during his last affair. So much so that the OW told her BH herself thinking that she'd landed her catch.

She hadn't. He was NEVER going to leave me. When DDay happened and he realized that he wasn't going to get a choice, that I was divorcing him and he had lost me, all he wanted was a do-over. He had gotten carried away in the adrenaline of it all, and yes.. he felt guilty for the role he'd played in how the OW had blown up her life, but he was losing ME. I'd been with him all his adult life. I'm the one he wants to tell things to, whether they're good or bad. I'm the solver of problems and the healer of hurts. I'm the one who knows how he likes his food cooked, who knows his inside jokes, who remembers all the details of his life. I've known him since he was 18 years-old. I remember dogs we've lost and hurts he's suffered, and whenever he moved a heavy pieces of furniture, it was ME on the other end he could count on to carry my weight. It's a million little things that suffered from familiarity and then, when they're about to be taken away, become precious precisely because of familiarity.

I read his emails. I saw his "plans". They were believable enough that I understand how the OW thought they were real. But what she didn't understand is that I'm a part of him. Giving me up would be like slicing off a limb, something to think about in the abstract, not something you do when the knife is in your hand.

Future-faking IS a thing... enough so that we have a term for it.

Fair cop, Camomile Tea.

There are a few pushing a lot of ‘what if’ or ‘her intentions were’. The fact is we don’t really know. Yes to look at the future we go over the past. Things were said in the A that cannot be un said or un heard. But to say her intent; is to know the operation of her mind and we all don’t have that.

AHG and his WW are going through this to establish the intent.

Just saying.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 3:19 AM, September 11th (Friday)]

None of us is omniscient, and thus know what she thought, or felt. Only she truly knows this, and I bet AHGuy has a decent idea of what she intended.

but we can infer some things through easy logic. You'd have to be a real dumb-dumb to not understand that moving into an adulterous relationship is a risky maneuver in which you're putting your marriage and family at stake. Every single WS understands this, and we're whistling past the graveyard to pretend otherwise. The entire point of a film like "Fatal Attraction" is in part: "this is the risk. We all know it."

Anyone with even a slight modicum of intelligence and self awareness knows adultery is a transgression with tremendously toxic fallout if exposed. For adulterers this seems to increase their enjoyment in many cases, PRECISELY because it is such transgressive and risky behavior.

It is exactly the fact that it risks so much and the chance for fallout is so high that creates the excitement.

Ergo, any act of infidelity is a risk-taking maneuver in which the WS has done a cost-benefits analysis and decided it was worth the risk. The risk is losing their family, their marriage and hurting their spouse.

They know this. Do they do this analysis on a calculator? Obviously not. But it crosses their mind -- even the deeply narcissistic ones. The reason we find this so upsetting is because this inevitably leads us to conclude we weren't worth all that much to them and they didn't regard us all that much.

And I agree with faitifulman that we're arguing about angels on a head of a pin with this stuff. The acts humiliated and hurt AHGuy beyond compare. Now he's dealing with the fallout. Intent matters, but what really matters is that his WW willingly blew up her marriage and now she's scrambling around like crazy to try to control and manipulate and minimize. She certainly has intent now, doesn't she?

Cool story, brah!

Your central thesis appears to be AHGuy’s wife is either a ‘dumb-dumb,’ or lacks a “slight modicum of intelligence and self-awareness,” not to think that her adultery would hurt him. Great. But how does this prove that you know that she intended to humiliate him, or not? It doesn’t. So again, unless you’re God, are omniscient, or are secretly AHGuy’s wife, STFU about her intent to humiliate AHGuy, or not. You just don’t have any clue.

While you're at it, look up and learn about post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Correlation does not necessarily mean causation. Your story tying together the underlying motivations of persons engaged in adultery is full of assuming the cause. Abductive reasoning is very often specious because of confounding variables.

P.S. - How do you know that the intent behind AHGuy’s wife “scrambling around” now is “to try to control and manipulate and minimize?” Could it be she is scrambling around because she understands, at least unconsciously, that she f’ed up and: 1) wants to make it right; 2) wants to retain some of her standing in society; 3) wants to meet her parents’ and church-group’s expectations; 4) loves AHGuy and wants to be with him; 5) two or more of the above; or 6) none of the above? Good example of assuming the cause, and potentially confounding variables.

[This message edited by Drumstick at 3:20 AM, September 11th (Friday)]

IMO future-faking is as speculative as asuming that they really mean to leave their spouses to be toguether. in adition therevis sbthird option, just getting D, an exit affair. if I am not mistaken, in HA firt posts is stated that her WW was contenolating D before the A, and that the A prevented. she seemd very reluctant to work in R after her DDay, eventough OM DDay were time before.mayvevHSWW wanst brave enough to leave then and not now,and it doent mean that HA is what she wants!! so IMO the real questions is if HA is her paln B, not comopare to OM (that still may be) but her life (family, job, house, etc). Maybe HA is a price to pay to keep her family, her house and save face. again, as almost everything in this thead, it is just especulation. thebonly oerosn that know for sure is HAWW, and after all thay she has been trougth, I doubt she kniws the thue of what was she thinking at that time anymore, she may has started to see her A as something bad and started the rewriting of her feeling and thougth during it!

I suspect that AH’s WW was doing compartmentalization, living an exciting new love life during the day and a day today married life with AH in the evening/night.

And that’s what is (understandably) hurting AH, the fact that he got erased from her life, relegated to compartment ‘B’ most of the time.

I think it’s possible she didn’t intent to humiliate him, because he didn’t really exist most of the time, Humiliate who? AH who? Oh, I’ll open that box tonight when I get back from work.

But I will fully admit it’s speculation on my part.

Compartmentalizing, future faking, exit affair...

It's all the same, she gave herself to another man and did things that humiliated AH.

I really don't care if she was firing her "fun bullets" (her words) at a paper target with AH behind it or if she was aiming directly for AH's heart, that is where she hit him and she killed the pure love he had for her as effectively either way.

She knew what would happen if she got caught, she didn't care about the pain and havoc it would cause.

Why should anyone have any consideration for the pain and havoc she has wrought upon herself? It is all her doing.

Regret, remorse, too little, too late if AH feels his injuries are too deep.

I don't care if she spends eternity on her knees constantly begging for forgiveness with tears of blood in her eyes. AH doesn't owe her R.

The only thing AH owes anyone is to heal himself and have the happiest healthiest life he can have. To be a whole man for himself and his children.

AH, the thing about every other woman out there save your WW, none of them have ever cheated on you. None of them has taken the special gift of being one-and-only and defecated thereupon before smashing it like so much detested detritus.

Literally 75-80% of women out there are not back-stabbing adulteresses. You chances of doing better with someone else is extraordinary since you seem to be the kind of guy woman would kill to have.

Again a caveat, I have never, nor will I ever live a day (by choice) with a woman after she has conducted a PA. I am that black or white about it.

Consider my words in that light because they come from a cold, dead heart whenever a PA is involved.

Good luck and Godspeed AH.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 6:14 AM, September 11th (Friday)]