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I think you're looking for some sort of certainty here, about the past and the future. Your H's answer adds to your certainty about the past and subtracts from certainty about the future.

It’s logical to do a pardon but I can’t say that it feels like it could be total because it put a dent in the renewed trust.

Exactly.

If you give him the chance, maybe he eill rebuild trust. You want to give him a chance. That's one of several ways of dealing with the sitch. You've gotta choose one, one with which you're comfortable, I hope.

This sort of thing is awful to experience, but I think it's part of most Rs. Sometimes this sort of thing ends R; sometimes not. Th trouble is that every BS has to make their own choice, and there are no guarantees.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:14 PM, Sunday, October 13th]

Ink said:

As I said before, I think people are messy. We are all pretty selfish, we all have fallible memories. I feel like betrayal trauma has made my memory worse.

I think this is sooo true.

I would make one revision to the idea that « betrayal trauma » makes our memory worse. I would say trauma makes our memories’ worse. And as the years add up most people have had many traumas, including but not limited to betrayal trauma.

As Ink said human beings are soooo fallible. The chair of our psychiatry department used to talk a lot about things being « truthy ». I found it annoying at the time but as I have grown older it has taken root in my worldview as well. I find that the vast majority of people are at best truthy, as opposed to black and white honest. We hide things, hide from ourselves, hide from others, try to limit our own pain, try to limit our loved ones’ pain. We are selfish and selfless in the same sentence and a thousand times back and forth in the same conversation.

You have done so much work, engaged in so much introspection and self-reflection as you have come to terms with not one but two affairs in your most sacred relationship. There are raw wounds that you both deal with every day. It sounds like your husband is a human being who has made another serious mistake. It probably wont be the last. We all get to look forward to choices from our spouse like whether they put us in a home when we get dementia or whether we put them in a home when they do. True love is so imperfect and trust is mostly aspirational. Anyone out there believing their spouse is a 1000% selfless being is living in a fantasy world.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be hurt, angry or even kick him to the curb if you think thats what is right for you. It is all just so very messy.

Someone else commented upon the fact that when you were getting together you may have had the feeling your then partner, now spouse, may have made you feel he was choosing between you and another. Then you went on to cheat. That resonated with me. I did that to my spouse. Pre-maritally I did that same thing to my then partner, now spouse. I’m not saying I caused my spouse to cheat. His own toxicity did that. But I do think it has a big impact when you experience the start of your relationship with a degree of unsteadiness and uncertainty. I am sure it is common but as we have come to understand the massive trauma that is infidelity it just makes sense that these pre-marital experiences—what might be considered infidelity lite—are also deeply impactful.

Anyway, as per usual…I have no actual advice.

One last question. I believe you have talked about that you are one of the folks that does not believe children strictly speaking need to be given the absolute truth of their parents’ affair. That shows an understanding for some grey area in matters of the truth. Is there such a thing as a kind withholding of some truth? Even if it ultimately proves misguided— as it seems to have proven misguided in your husband’s case. His lie was most misguided as a lie can only be a kindness if it is never revealed. And now you are dealing with he revelation.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 6:24 PM, Sunday, October 13th]

And I have to say I have been surprised to hear you say that you want out of the gray, I wouldn't have predicted that based off your writing.

It’s because when you talk about ws behavior it’s very grey, the reconciliation process is less so but it’s murky and you have no map. But when you reach the state where you truly feel rebuilt, there isn’t a lot of room for you not to have a strong value system. You can’t claim not to know better what you are getting yourself into and the relationship never really goes back to ignorant bliss either.

Maybe you have been pardoning him the entire life of your marriage?

It’s kind of what marriage is though to a certain extent.

And yes, Jasonch, it could have denied my agency to a certain extent but not like if this was not during a break or I didn’t already have most of the details. Not everything here was hidden.

Not radical honesty though, I still utilize some tact, I can be real without being mean about it.

Someone else called it radical honesty, but I don’t think that’s what we are actually practicing. We have tact with each other. I am not a wife that will ask things like does these pants make my ass look big or things like that. And neither of us are very critical people. All I mean is you tell the truth when asked a question and you keep the other informed about all the things that might impact the other- so that would include things like spending, bigger decisions, being vulnerable enough to share when we are hurt, disappointed, if you have expectations of the other you can’t just not say and then hold it against them, etc. and of course if there was anything fidelity related. It’s hard to picture that sort of honesty as radical. Moreso, it’s a demonstration of respect and consideration.

And if you’re remotely considering pulling the rug, then maybe this last untruth isn’t the full issue. Doubts happen too, I think that’s part of every relationship every day.

I thought it to be certainly an option, I have calmed down from that. To me, this disclosure triggered a feeling of being out of the loop with my own life again and that’s what I see our promise to each other to be about.

I can understand a blanketed pardon because he forgot he took the AP to our favorite restaurant or bought her something I didn’t know about. I have the gist of the affair and it went on for so long I know there is a lot I can’t know, there is no way of filling in the gaps.

But this is not that. This is did I marry a liar and not know it? After all, I have blindly trusted him our whole marriage up until his affair. And even then part of me took into account that people who are traumatized by something will do things outside their character sometimes. That is part of the consequences of cheating in them.

This thing represents a willful lie he told that I can not relate to traumatizing him or me breaking a relationship. So it’s really put a crack in that post affair trust. There are implications here of did he lie to me about other stuff in the marriage and because it was easy to do so not something he remembers?

And some of that is exacerbated by the fact I didn’t even have the slightest inkling he was as having an affair. As bsr said, he was doing it in my home with our employee and didn’t leave a grace here so it does scare me that he is some sort of master compartmentalizer.

However, if I knew he’d been a liar the whole time and the work he did after his dday has moved him more towards answering things truthfully, then I think I can probably live with it, so in that way that pardon makes sense. If I have had a shitty husband all these years and was too naive to see it, does it matter if I don’t have a shitty husband now and we have an opportunity for the next 20-30 to be the things I want out of marriage? Probably not. And that’s why I think I am a little more watch a little more closely and wait and see.

This caused damage I can’t just logic my way out of it. I think I have been forced back into the gray until the clarity comes again over time. And it’s kind of devastating to feel like I am being put back in the sink hole of wait and see again.

I have to choose my day, my life every single morning when I wake up. That day by day thing you mentioned, for me, that’s living in the now. That concept has taken me a long damn time to actually…..live in the now.

I can appreciate that, at the same time, you know what it’s like to learn something years later, this is happening in the now. Sure, I don’t give a shit about the woman or what they did together. I don’t want details it wasn’t an affair, and I know we were so much younger and different then. I am more just a little messed up on what it means about trusting my own judgment.

As I said to Jason, I think a marriage actually does require pardons over time. It takes two good forgivers. It’s just where the hell is the line? I don’t know, doesn’t feel like we have crossed it but again my fear is more do I like being an ostrich with my head in the sand because I prefer optimism? I am far less flexible with that idea than I would have been before I had new expectations of myself.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:02 PM, Sunday, October 13th]

Your H's answer adds to your certainty about the past and subtracts from certainty about the future.

Yes. This exactly.

I think you're looking for some sort of certainty here,

Yes. I feel like I have been giving certainty and wanted it in return.

I don’t need certainty exactly about the future, I know I will be okay no matter what. I just want him to be reliable and I want to get what I have been giving. It changes the clarity of the picture.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:05 PM, Sunday, October 13th]

Still confused-

Thank you. Yes, when I cheated I did use this woman in my narrative to myself. It is messy. I am sure the path will emerge, the last couple of weeks it’s just been being up a lot of big feelings and as you understand big emotions and being rational typically do not co exist.

It’s because when you talk about ws behavior it’s very grey, the reconciliation process is less so but it’s murky and you have no map. But when you reach the state where you truly feel rebuilt, there isn’t a lot of room for you not to have a strong value system. You can’t claim not to know better what you are getting yourself into and the relationship never really goes back to ignorant bliss either.

That all makes sense. And, even once we return to solid ground we have to still contend with human nature. What I’m not saying is to accept evil and abusive behavior. But if we aren’t prepared to interact with the frailties built into humanity, then I think there are still growth opportunities.

I am willing to work through marital issues and deal with the frailty of human behavior. I don’t see that as the issue at all.

I don’t know how to articulate this any better. BSR hit on it. I am an emotionally intelligent person so I think for many here they can’t see I can also be a naive and trusting and excusing person who mostly have lived life with good intentions. Yes, I have been fallible and unreliable too, but what she is talking about boils down to her concerns that I don’t see his complexities because those are absent in me.

I have been told countless times on this site I am an anomaly. Maybe this is why?

And while I see his affair and know some of the issues that he has worked to resolve, and I think that he is forthright today, I also thought it when we got back together after the break up, I also thought it the entire time I grovels and pleaded and tried while he was having his affair.

There was zero recognition anything was happening and this went on for 18 months. When I found out, she is right I projected what I know about ws behavior and labeled it a trauma response. I didn’t excuse it but I thought I understood it.

But what if between the time of Ms. Tramp and Ms, Tramp number two I saw him through my rose colored glasses while he really a shitty person all along. And what if I rewrote a lot of my resentments as unfounded in my efforts as humility took center stage? I don’t think even if he was the shiftiest of husbands, he would have deserved for me to cheat on him, but what if the being done part was for good reason?

This is what this whole thing calls into question for me. I do not trust myself that I am seeing him clearly and maybe I never have.

What if I just want to be married because I love him and I want to keep my little Pollyanna picture of what we have in tact, but that isn’t really what this is?

And what if getting R was my way of making amends, and attaining redemption but it was misguided?

I can’t help it, this calls into question for me what the reality actually is. And when I think about it what I am not trusting the lost here is myself. I think I have fixed a lot of my doormat ways, but I know that stuff runs deep.

On the other hand I do know that I am saying "this is what I am willing to give and what I want in return" which to me says okay, you really are looking out for yourself the way you think. I think I explained away a lot of BSR’s post because it was uncomfortable, but if I am honest there were things in it that resonates. I do think I have more accountability in some of it than what she wrote about but as I said I have always been self-punishing, self correcting and to be fair I have been very focused on that for most all this time.

I imagine it’s not one extreme or another, but I am grappling with what the truth is. This really isn’t a should I stay or should I go, I don’t think I am in bag packing mode.

This isn’t going to be quickly solved, this is going to be a process, but I can’t accept that it’s because I can’t tolerate his shortcomings. It’s more do I understand his shortcomings? Does this make more sense? Being a Pollyanna type has its dangers - because it means you make the darker parts smaller.

I am encouraged he told the truth when I asked and do not wish to punish him for that. Maybe it’s a good sign, but I am not going to be quick to assume that and go forward in ostrich mode.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:54 PM, Sunday, October 13th]

It takes two good forgivers. It’s just where the hell is the line? I don’t know, doesn’t feel like we have crossed it but again my fear is more do I like being an ostrich with my head in the sand because I prefer optimism? I am far less flexible with that idea than I would have been before I had new expectations of myself.

The line is where YOU need to be.

Hopefully, I've not come across as suggesting otherwise. The line is always where all of us need to be, especially of us wounded souls.

And I get the fear of being....too accepting. I've had to cross that bridge a few times.

Boundaries -- the ones I required for R -- took my wife some time to adjust to. When those boundaries were pushed early on, I definitely questioned my judgment regarding the pardon and forgiveness in general.

Anyone who has been betrayed, it takes a while, a long while to trust ourselves again, much less someone else. Maybe you have some additional healing to do as well.

The element I can't see and can't ask questions about, is I don't know how your H is responding to his belated confession. My spouse is a lifetime conflict avoider, and while she adjusts the best she can, she still fails at times and will shut down or omit information to avoid a potential disagreement. Her whole family is the same.

If your spouse gets it, he should be working overtime with some empathy (while giving you space as needed).

If he is just kicking back and keeping his fingers crossed, then he has more work to do as well.

But I definitely can’t see IC or divorce really remedying any of it.

I can't see divorce remedying any of it (because this is, IMO, about you and you and the questions/decisions about the relationship come later), but do you still not see the value of processing in IC?

I'm so sorry this happened, but I want assure you that there light in the tunnel here.

I could have written your last post if I could have nailed it down and put my finger on it. Thank you for so eloquently putting into words almost exactly what I'm experiencing.

I do not trust myself that I am seeing him clearly and maybe I never have.

This exact dynamic is a big part of what brought me back to SI so many years post-DDay.

So many times, I thought I had my H nailed down, only to discover that I'd been attributing his actions to thoughts he wasn't having, feelings he wasn't feeling. They were assumptions on my part based on the stories I told myself about who he was and how he feels about me. Only by asking him did I get a clearer picture of what was really going on with him, and many times I've been surprised by how far off the mark I was.

This isn’t going to be quickly solved, this is going to be a process, but I can’t accept that it’s because I can’t tolerate his shortcomings. It’s more do I understand his shortcomings? Does this make more sense? Being a Pollyanna type has its dangers - because it means you make the darker parts smaller.

Exactly. Every bit of it is deeper and snakier than I thought it was. His dysfunction, my dysfunction, how our dysfunctions intertwine, all of it. Untangling everything is a lot of work, and it's an ongoing process. We healed well from infidelity, but new stressors led to new issues that weren't infidelity, but were related. I like my H. I love my H. I'm not looking to end my marriage. But my Pollyanna days are over, at least with him. I view everything with a side eye now that I'm fully aware of my tendencies to get swept up in the excitement of his impulsivity, to put a positive spin on everything, and to then carry resentment for having allowed it to happen yet again.

New relationship

Broke up after a month

Relationship fragile

You ask a question about sex, he knows if he says yes it's another breakup

Panics says No, keeps the secret

If you were in a deeper relationship I would put more weight to the lie. But as stated, be upset for a bit and move past it.

Peace

Hikingout,
I worry you may have already heard the answer to this question before but the memories got snowed under the heavier, more pertinent at that moment info. Would your take on the matters currently change if that were the case?

I'm not sure if my understanding is correct, so sent you a DM.

Um, so I have to eat some crow here.

Apparently my husband disclosed this whole thing before my poly. Thanks imperfect stranger for finding this. It was in the thread where I had just found out.

My husband said to me a couple times that he thought he told me this years ago but he didn’t rightly remember either. I guess all the discussion around trauma and memory really is true. I am guessing that finding this out at the same time I was still reeling from the affair made it not stick?

I am sorry for taking up resources here for this- I truly didn’t remember.

It’s going to take a minute to get out of this emotional trajectory I needlessly put myself through, but I am thankful to my past self for writing it down here.

It’s going to take a minute to get out of this emotional trajectory I needlessly put myself through, but I am thankful to my past self for writing it down here.

I don’t know about needless — you had some questions, some doubts in there somewhere, whether you had total recall or not.

We do need to know, whoever we are with, has our back, and the best way to do that is being honest (and vulnerable) with each other.

As such, if your H was kind to you while you figured this out, you got something to work with!

Hikingout, whenever we find out a 'new truth' it has the capacity to send us spiraling. We are after all in a heightened emotional state. I would feel exactly the same way as you do. I also know with time, I always gain clarity and things feel different. I wonder if him finally telling you the truth about what happened back then can be viewed as progress on his end. Clearly, he had no problem lying about it at first. I suppose he could've kept up the facade and continue to lie, instead he chose to tell the truth this time.

This is very happy news. He didn't lie.

Also, been there and done that. Memory is fallible, and trauma memory is doubly so. I reread my DDay journal a couple of months ago and discovered that I had been remembering a very big piece of information incorrectly. It's a good lesson to not believe everything that you think.

Mad respect for the exercise in crow eating, that takes tremendous humility.

I've been reading a few of my not so long ago threads, even just six months ago, and I'm reminded of some events that just don't reside in easily accessible memory, almost felt like reading about them for the first time. I think what you experienced here is extremely relatable. And yeah, it makes me think all the more that a hard line in the sand pact would be problematic in practice, even if it sounds really good in theory. I'm really really really not trying to do an "I told you so" here or pile on. So maybe I'll just ask you: given this experience and your epiphanies earlier in the thread, how are you thinking about your pact?

I'm happy this story ended up like this. I would have been deeply sad for you if you would have been thrown back into long term chaos.

Um, so I have to eat some crow here.

Apparently my husband disclosed this whole thing before my poly. Thanks imperfect stranger for finding this. It was in the thread where I had just found out.

Human memory is fallible. When my H and I were reconstructing the timeline of my affair, both of us had memories that would have passed a polygraph and yet were proven inaccurate by physical evidence. How could we both have forgotten that I visited him in the middle of the affair? It seems impossible, but we did. The calendar and ticket stubs prove I was there.

One thing that had him really tied up in knots was that I had gone to a hotel with the OM when at that point in time, we never had. He was really down about it, and I was profusely apologetic. Eventually, we unearthed a bill that proved I had spent the night in a hotel with BH first, a full year before the A. He felt pretty guilty about the error. I mostly felt relieved that he didn't have to grieve that particular loss out of the many I had imposed on him (though I'm also human, so I tasted just a pinch of salt in that particular stew).