SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You and Clouds came up during my WW’s rant last night. She noted I’m being influenced by the two of you in wanting to separate from her.

Lol. So she has this incredible resource at her fingertips,and rather than use it to really work on herself,she is using it as a weapon against you.

The biggest reason I advocated for you to tell her about this site, is because at some point it really seemed like she wanted to repair the damage she had caused, but seemed lost on how to do that. That was me..advocating FOR HER. To HELP HER. Instead, she came here, got amazing support and advice,and ignored it all,and continued to weaponize the support you are getting here. It's really a shame.

Have I even said you should separate from her? I'm not sure I have. But, if I think about it, I agree it's a good idea. She can't seem to get out of her own way. She says one thing,but her actions continuously say another. She's very immature. She needs to grow up. She needs to see what it would be like,if the two of you do divorce. You say she is terrified of divorce. I think she says that. But her actions say otherwise. She is constantly having this push/pull dynamic. Once again, she's been ridiculous, cruel,throwing an tantrum,buckles down into that tantrum,and only when she thinks she pushes you a little too far, does she suddenly apologize, want to cuddle,says she NOW gets it,and she WILL do what she needs to do(work on herself, the heavy lifting, make the marriage a priority,etc). You get your hopes up again. Lather,rinse,repeat.

She's so intent on what she sees as fair. Ask her..was her affair fair to you and the kids? Was her badmouthing fair to you? Was the abuse she's heaped on you,before,and after dday,fair to you?

Not one thing about infidelity is fair to the BS.

Yet, she thinks it's ok to continue to hurt you.

It is not my fault, or clouds,or anyone else's fault that you are considering a separation. That's all on her,and her actions. But,it doesn't surprise me that she is blameshifting. It's what unremorseful WS do.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:46 PM, Friday, July 1st]

I know you poopoo'd it the first time I mentioned it and I think I may have said something a second time, but here we go again, as Lather, Rinse, Repeat seems to help you accept things.

She needs a full mental exam, and work up by a licensed physician that is trained in the field. NOT a therapist.
This is NOT to say she is crazy, weak, or whatever else her fears are, but to truly get a baseline to help her understand why she is doing the stupid things she is doing that are only causing more harm to both of you and your relationship.

I do suspect based on her impulsivity, and immaturity, and cycling/escalating behaviors that she has some ADD/ADHD, and often treatment can be life changing for us that fall into this category. If she has some other underlying mental health issues those too can often be treated with a healthy combination of medication, talk therapy, and even health coaching. She at minimum has anxiety that she does not manage well at all, and she self medicates with alcohol and impulsive behaviors.

You both are so focused on rebuilding the M, and right now you are both broken people. It's like trying to build a house on an uneven foundation, and then wondering why the walls are crooked, and the roof is leaking.

DSL: In this case, my WW’s position was that it was unfair that because of the affair, all her "friends" don’t want to talk with her anymore, while I still have all of my friends and family as support. Not only do I not find that unfair, we had exhausted the topic over the last 24 hours and a grueling MC session.

i see this as your wife saying she feels she needs friends to help support her. it also seems likely that she feels she is not allowed to have any friends at this point in her life. almost like she has to stay in the house (like a prisoner). you noted that you thought she was being selfish for wanting to go out with a friend on the third day after returning from her visit ... however, you made plans to be away from her the two days prior (to decompress with family, or however you worded it). i also somewhat remember reading that you considered your own behavior acceptable-- two back2back days without her was a "good" thing and if she objected in any way she was being selfish. yet, she's not allowed time to unwind/decompress. i just see this behavior as BOTH of you being immature and stuck in making each other "pay".

DSL: As for the polygrapher, I went over my proposed questions for her and she responded: "Cut all the questions not about sex; all the other stuff is fine—no one can eat the same soup every day for the rest of their
lives, you just want to know when she crossed the line."

i honestly don't understand this at all (??). are you saying the polygrapher ONLY wanted you to keep the sex questions? are you saying the "other stuff" was the badmouthing and that everyone badmouths their spouse at some time in the marriage? i can't make sense of what the polygrapher said -vs- your interpretation of what she said. did you question her position in order to gain understanding? or did you assume what she meant?

DSL: I’ll be honest, Sundance’s recent post shocked me. We had a recent PM exchange that makes it extra strange and cruel. It’s the internet though. I’ll be ok. And I appreciate you.

my statements are not meant to be strange or cruel. i have an equally difficult time understanding your approach and replies to what i read on your own thread (note: not talking about your replies to me).

i consider you an internet acquantaince, who i only "know" from what you choose to post.

i'm not surprised that you say my recent post shocked you-- this seems natural to me based on how i perceive you to react to advice given from formerly wayward spouses (particularly female WSs).

much like your own treatment/wooing of your wife, i have witnessed the "wooing" of the female WS to engage with you. you write that you find the engagement to be helpful and welcome the input. but then somehow, the conversation(s) takes a creepy turn (whether it's sexual in nature, or questioning a fws credibility). personally, i find that treatment oddly strange.

clouds777: Your wife is trying to hurt you on purpose. She wants to win. She wants to he the victim. She is lying through her teeth about whats important to her. She is saying what she thinks she is supposed to say. She wants control back. That is what is important to her. She keeps proving it, you keep not believing it.

i don't understand how a poster on this forum, who has likely never met your wife, can make the above statements (??). i do think it's better, when making such bold statements, to say: "your wife seems to be trying to hurt you on purpose." -- but even that softer version is still based ONLY on what DSL chooses to share about his wife.

that being said, maybe she does truly want to win. if she is in a marriage where she thinks she is being controlled/manipulated, then the fact that she wants to win is not so hard to understand/empathise with. maybe she is willing to lose the M if she feels she cannot "win" at something. i so get this mindset (even in its absurdity). but no one can be sure that is what she is thinking/feeling unless the subject is allowed to be explored and brought out into the light.

does she want control back (??)-- i don't know. maybe. again, ask her. and ask what type of control is she seeking?

Yes, I do think you're co dependent but it's fucked up to say that months out from your lying cheating wife fucking another man for months and badmouthing you, she has had enough punishment. She hasn't done ANYTHING selfless yet.

when exactly will she have had enough punishment? and how can you say she has done nothing selfless?

DSL is 4 months out from d-day (i think, can't remember exactly). imho, it's not helpful to continue to treat him as if this just happened yesterday. it did not happen yesterday. tho, i understand that there is a strong presence here that insists that a betrayed spouse needs 2-5 years to process infidelity. that's hogwash. it is possible to feel better, and be in a positive frame of mind much, much sooner. everyone chooses their own frame of mind (aside from being heavily drugged).

hellfire: She's very immature. She needs to grow up. She needs to see what it would be like,if the two of you do divorce. You say she is terrified of divorce. I think she says that. But her actions say otherwise. She is constantly having this push/pull dynamic. Once again, she's been ridiculous, cruel,throwing an tantrum,buckles down into that tantrum,and only when she thinks she pushes you a little too far, does she suddenly apologize, want to cuddle,says she NOW gets it,and she WILL do what she needs to do(work on herself, the heavy lifting, make the marriage a priority,etc). You get your hopes up again. Lather,rinse,repeat.

"Until the lion learns how to write every story will glorify the hunter" -- african proverb

tushnurse: I do suspect based on her impulsivity, and immaturity, and cycling/escalating behaviors that she has some ADD/ADHD, and often treatment can be life changing for us that fall into this category. If she has some other underlying mental health issues those too can often be treated with a healthy combination of medication, talk therapy, and even health coaching. She at minimum has anxiety that she does not manage well at all, and she self medicates with alcohol and impulsive behaviors.

You both are so focused on rebuilding the M, and right now you are both broken people. It's like trying to build a house on an uneven foundation, and then wondering why the walls are crooked, and the roof is leaking.

^ see african proverb above. assumptions based on one perspective/one story. i really wish that lion would pick up a pen.

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if i've misquoted anyone, please let me know so i can fix. happy healing! sunny

Dr S,

I really wish that your WW were posting actively to get feedback from her POV. I really believe that the help she could get here would be invaluable.

That being said, I don’t think that where the two of you are is all that unusual. I feel you are in a similar place my BH and I were in at this point in time after DDay. Healing from infidelity takes years and you are just a little over 3 months out. At this point, your wife has no understanding of what it means to be remorseful. I mean real remorse. She is in panic mode and flailing. She is attempting to use unhealthy, learned coping mechanisms that has worked in the past in a situation that no longer applies. She is still trying to keep score on a board that busted. You are yearning for her to see your POV and she is resenting it and taking as a punishment. She is right about one thing, the power is imbalanced. What she is not realizing is that she has the power to change that.

I think that she started to make some ground in your MC session. I hope she can grow from that and branch out from there. She needs to learn that her coping strategies and internal dialogue are failing her. She also needs to learn to let go and get vulnerable with you. This all takes that nasty four letter word "TIME".

As frustrating as this sounds, you both are reacting in very typical ways immediately in the aftermath of DDay. There is no such thing as a wayward immediately getting it and doing all of the right things. There is also no such thing as a betrayed spouse immediately having it all worked out either. The two of you are traveling down a road trying to make sense of the completely insensible.

She won’t let go of the dinner because she honestly has no understanding why it is a problem. If she understood it deep down, she would know what the right decision would be. She isn’t able to see your position on her own. She isn’t able to understand the how cutting it would be to have the AP mentioned or how it might make you feel foolish being around someone that may have known more about your marriage than you did. How difficult it would be around someone that might be secretly pitying you. If you aren’t there, she will not understand that those feelings don’t change. She needs to learn to ask herself why she would want to do something she knows makes you uncomfortable.

All this to say, keep moving forward and keep working through this. It really is a 2-5 year healing process.

She needs a full mental exam, and work up by a licensed physician that is trained in the field. NOT a therapist.

She is seeing a psychologist twice a week and a couples therapist once a week. If one of them identifies she needs more help, they'll tell her. I have no plans to *force* my WW to see a psychiatrist. I don't think she's a danger to herself or the children. If we can't fix the relationship, we'll D.

That you are calling her a lion,and him,the person who was betrayed, the hunter, is absurd.

Yes..we only have his side of things. Because, the lion,as you call her, refuses to use these forums to help heal herself,or her marriage. She was treated extremely kind on her one,and only,thread. She got great advice, and she got the support ws need. Rather than use this site, she uses posts that hurt her feelings as means to attack her husband. Her behavior is an example as to why we tell BS not to show this site to their WS. I regret that I encouraged him to do so.

Also, at 4 months out,the shock is wearing off. The anger is setting in. And the reality of just how catastrophic the fallout is from the affair is just starting to become understood.

Since you want to be her champion, do you really think her choice of who she was attempting to build a friendship with was a good one? Out of all the mom's in her kids classes, or a mom of one of her kid's friends, or a female coworker..she chose the woman who was on a 3 person committee with OM. Someone who would no doubt trigger her husband. Smart choice? I don't recall him telling her she couldn't have any friends. He would just prefer them not to have an association with the man she was fucking a few months ago. That's a very reasonable request. Obviously not to a WS, however.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:41 PM, Friday, July 1st]

i see this as your wife saying she feels she needs friends to help support her. it also seems likely that she feels she is not allowed to have any friends at this point in her life. almost like she has to stay in the house (like a prisoner). you noted that you thought she was being selfish for wanting to go out with a friend on the third day after returning from her visit ... however, you made plans to be away from her the two days prior (to decompress with family, or however you worded it). i also somewhat remember reading that you considered your own behavior acceptable-- two back2back days without her was a "good" thing and if she objected in any way she was being selfish. yet, she's not allowed time to unwind/decompress. i just see this behavior as BOTH of you being immature and stuck in making each other "pay".

That's exactly what she is saying. The issue is not her desire to see friends--she could go out with friends anytime she wants--the issue is with this particular acquaintance who cannot be a friend of our M because she was so directly connected to the A. I did not forbid her from going, but in the interest of transparency and at the suggestion of our MC, I told her it hurt me that she was going. It wouldn't have been the first selfish thing she's done since DDay. As I explained in my earlier post, it was more an issue of her feeling controlled by me even though she knew the dinner wasn't good for the marriage.

And to be clear, the disaster that is her current social life has *nothing* to do with me.

i honestly don't understand this at all (??). are you saying the polygrapher ONLY wanted you to keep the sex questions? are you saying the "other stuff" was the badmouthing and that everyone badmouths their spouse at some time in the marriage? i can't make sense of what the polygrapher said -vs- your interpretation of what she said. did you question her position in order to gain understanding? or did you assume what she meant?

The specific thing (I think) the polygrapher was referring to was my question to find out if my WW had been having sexual communication or EAs with men prior to the recent A. The polygrapher didn't think it was worth my time because anything short of sex wasn't a big deal. I found her position strange. Further, I found everything about her strange and didn't have faith in her as a professional. I decided not to enlist her services. I find your criticism of that decision misguided.

my statements are not meant to be strange or cruel. i have an equally difficult time understanding your approach and replies to what i read on your own thread (note: not talking about your replies to me).

i consider you an internet acquantaince, who i only "know" from what you choose to post.

i'm not surprised that you say my recent post shocked you-- this seems natural to me based on how i perceive you to react to advice given from formerly wayward spouses (particularly female WSs).

much like your own treatment/wooing of your wife, i have witnessed the "wooing" of the female WS to engage with you. you write that you find the engagement to be helpful and welcome the input. but then somehow, the conversation(s) takes a creepy turn (whether it's sexual in nature, or questioning a fws credibility). personally, i find that treatment oddly strange.

I have no issue with advice from WSs--as I've said, I've found @HikingOut one of the most insightful posters on this board--but I don't find many of *your* posts to be in good faith. In your recent post you called me creepy and you told me I'm punishing my wife--I guess I just can't see your perspective as a very reasonable one. Further, you mischaracterized my "bus story" horribly, which I can only assume was an attempt to troll me or be flippant. I'll write it out again for others to read--they can decide if you're acting in good faith.

This is what you wrote:

how long are you going to punish her and make her jump through hoops? she will never be who you want her to be because she is not allowed, by you, to be who she truly is: she is the wife who wants you to manage to get your boy on the school bus without her help. you are the man crying over the fact that your wife told the "world" that you can't get your boy on the bus without her help. why can't you get your boy on the bus? why does any thought of your own imperfection(s) seem to cut so deeply?

This is what happened:

On January 5, my WW woke up next to AP in a hotel about 15 miles from our house. They had unprotected sex. He showered, then they made out for another 10 minutes or so before he left the hotel room a little before 7 a.m. There was an ice storm in the northeast, but my WW was planning to stay put anyway as she had to keep her cover story that she was traveling in another state for business.

I woke up around 6:30 a.m. at home with my three-year-old daughter and seven-year-old son. I got them ready for school and got my daughter over to my mom's house so I could get my son to the bus stop around 7:40 a.m. At the bus stop, my son and I waited with the other parents and children in the ice storm for about 25-30 minutes. Realizing the bus was not coming, we worked our way back to our house, avoiding the roads because they were too slippery to walk on.

I reached out to my WW to get the name of the woman who manages the buses so I could email or call her--to see what was happening with the bus. My WW provided me the name, but I couldn't track the woman down (I suspect she was having quite a morning; all the buses had to pull over due to the bad weather conditions, so everything was shutdown). I drove my son to school instead and then made my way to work.

My WW, feeling horribly guilty for being at the hotel to begin with, texted her mom around 8-8:30 a.m. in an effort to offload her guilt. Her mother, had just arrived at the hospital to go through a full day of medical tests--she's a cancer survivor. My WW told her mom how incompetent I was without her and that I couldn't even get my son on the bus without her there. Her mom sent back a laughing emoji. Her mom later told me she was very sorry for that exchange and had no idea what was actually going on because she was walking around a hospital in a gown and wasn't focused on her daughter's texts.

I find that story horrific. My WW finds it horrific. My MIL finds it horrific. You don't, and that's ok. But I don't think you're a serious person.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:51 AM, Saturday, July 2nd]

Dr S,

I really wish that your WW were posting actively to get feedback from her POV. I really believe that the help she could get here would be invaluable.

That being said, I don’t think that where the two of you are is all that unusual. I feel you are in a similar place my BH and I were in at this point in time after DDay. Healing from infidelity takes years and you are just a little over 3 months out. At this point, your wife has no understanding of what it means to be remorseful. I mean real remorse. She is in panic mode and flailing. She is attempting to use unhealthy, learned coping mechanisms that has worked in the past in a situation that no longer applies. She is still trying to keep score on a board that busted. You are yearning for her to see your POV and she is resenting it and taking as a punishment. She is right about one thing, the power is imbalanced. What she is not realizing is that she has the power to change that.

I think that she started to make some ground in your MC session. I hope she can grow from that and branch out from there. She needs to learn that her coping strategies and internal dialogue are failing her. She also needs to learn to let go and get vulnerable with you. This all takes that nasty four letter word "TIME".

As frustrating as this sounds, you both are reacting in very typical ways immediately in the aftermath of DDay. There is no such thing as a wayward immediately getting it and doing all of the right things. There is also no such thing as a betrayed spouse immediately having it all worked out either. The two of you are traveling down a road trying to make sense of the completely insensible.

She won’t let go of the dinner because she honestly has no understanding why it is a problem. If she understood it deep down, she would know what the right decision would be. She isn’t able to see your position on her own. She isn’t able to understand the how cutting it would be to have the AP mentioned or how it might make you feel foolish being around someone that may have known more about your marriage than you did. How difficult it would be around someone that might be secretly pitying you. If you aren’t there, she will not understand that those feelings don’t change. She needs to learn to ask herself why she would want to do something she knows makes you uncomfortable.

All this to say, keep moving forward and keep working through this. It really is a 2-5 year healing process.

Thank you for your post.

And I do hope she returns to posting here one day, but seeing how the last attempt went, I have no plans to push it. It was *really* bad and she was worse than I've ever seen her in my life. That was the day I thought she might be having a real mental break of some kind. She's a very thin-skinned person and the internet is a rough place--it might have worked if she just stuck to her thread and didn't come here, but with her on the site so frequently, the temptation was too great. She's largely avoiding the site entirely now.

I can read your post to her though--I will sometimes cherry pick gentle ones for her to see. I don't know if it helps though.

I regret that I encouraged him to do so.

Don’t feel bad about it at all. I knew what I was getting her into and I did it with eyes wide open. It didn’t work out, but that’s ok.

I’m with WOE.

Neither of Dr.or his wife are twisting their mustaches and cackling as they toss the cannonball into situations.

The have a marriage that had problems and destructive patterns before the affair and then Mrs Dr. Dropped a hydrogen bomb in the midst of it.

I don’t think either party has been super successful at focusing on their individual work, not because they are necessarily controlling or obstinate, but because it’s HARD.

It’s scary to let go of the outcome and separate your desire to know what your partners doing and focus on yourself. I know I couldn’t do it at four months, not even sure I did it successfully at a year.

You don’t have a lot of experience operating outside your couplehood, so when the going gets tough you head back to the safety of old patterns.

We don’t have Mrs. side and that’s not really the point. We are on Drs thread because he’s the one asking for feedback. And if we comment on Mrs. behavior it from his narrative and is our personal opinions.

I think we all make the mistake of assuming things occasionally. I do it. I bring my own experience, and sometimes projections to each thread I post on.

I think you both have to stop talking about her. It feeds the both of you in unhealthy ways. I don’t think I could have let the dinner stand either. It just too much of a trigger. I get it. And I get why she can’t see it yet.

However, if her only support system is some acquaintance she made on the PTA that more than likely knows about her affair that’s not a good sign.

Is her lack of support system Drs fault? Mrs seems perfectly capable of finding the time and energy to devote to friendships. Dr did not hone in on all the PTA single social gatherings. Mrs didn’t use that time to get to know her peers. She used it to conduct an affair.

But that doesn’t mean she’s incapable of forming a support network with the guidance of her IC. I could even grant that this person she made plans with as Dr. Mentioned was possibly a good candidate if it didn’t offend too much at this time.

We all have agency in our own lives. Some here see Drs hyper vigilance and delving from one chaotic subject to the next with entirely too much confidence as controlling. I think he’s just like most BS’s cycling between understanding what is necessary and trying to have an impact on our Waywards. To try to lead the path to R subtlety (and not so subtlety).

I was extremely confident that (my) love would fix it, until I learned the hard way that I was full of shit. And I was told in no uncertain terms it wouldn’t work, but I was entrenched… until I wasn’t. Until Sitting one more day in my fucked up R was worse than facing the truth.

They are both making mistakes and progress and will continue to do so. I do think if you are going to continue MC, it should only be a discussion of and reaffirming boundaries at this time while you can do your own work. I do think you need a strong third party to enforce them at this time because she doesn’t get it and needs to hear if from someone other than you.

Try to stop having discussions and focus on your personal game plan. Be specific on what you are going to do today and tomorrow to work on your healing and personal goals.

Hold yourself accountable to not engaging. If she’s following you around the house go for a walk, go to the gym, run an errand. Get some breathing room. Then talk about boundaries again at next MC. Try that version of rinse and repeat and see if it helps.

P.S. You and Clouds came up during my WW’s rant last night. She noted I’m being influenced by the two of you in wanting to separate from her. I have my own agency

Wow. That's bizarre and pitiful. I don't even know what you should do with that.

She has all these resources available to her and, instead, she tries to use anything she can get her hands on against you. She doesn't use it to learn or grow, just to further beat you into submission. She really must think you are spineless and stupid and internet strangers will be able to convince you to do their bidding. How weird!? I mean, I really don't know how you can go forward with someone like this.

She really must think you are spineless and stupid and internet strangers will be able to convince you to do their bidding. How weird!?

It’s projection. She is *very* affected by the words of internet strangers and she becomes very defensive over the things said about her. She is putting that on me. We’ve actually discussed this at length multiple times, with me explaining how I view these posts, but she doesn’t understand how I can detach from taking these conversations more personally.

I suspect a big part of it is I’ve been active on Internet forums my entire life and she never has—this was all very new to her. The arguments I’m having here are fairly tame considering my past experiences.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 2:33 PM, Saturday, July 2nd]

HF: Since you want to be her champion, do you really think her choice of who she was attempting to build a friendship with was a good one? Out of all the mom's in her kids classes, or a mom of one of her kid's friends, or a female coworker..she chose the woman who was on a 3 person committee with OM. Someone who would no doubt trigger her husband. Smart choice? I don't recall him telling her she couldn't have any friends. He would just prefer them not to have an association with the man she was fucking a few months ago. That's a very reasonable request. Obviously not to a WS, however.

first things first, i'm 100% confident that MrsSL could find a more appropriate friend. however, i most certainly think DSL is sending his own wife very, very mixed messages on how he stands in regards to the proposed dinner with this friend and her spouse. for instance--

DSL 6.29 @ 4:07pm regarding wife attending dinner with friend: The dinner she wanted to do with her friend last Saturday is set for this Friday. She'll be going with her friend and her friend's husband. She wants me to go, but I don't feel comfortable doing that right now. As I've mentioned, this friend *likely* knows about the A...

Ultimately, I'll be fine with it--I'll do something fun with the kids on Friday--but it feels like it irrationally bothers me when it shouldn't.

DSL 6.29 @ 5:15pm regarding dinner friend: I agree with you somewhat, but I don’t want to be unfair in painting this picture either. She has known this woman for years as an acquaintance—her daughter is my son’s age. The woman is not friends with AP at all...

As for the dinner specifically, I think it’s likely she knows about the A. Both my WW and AP quit the PTA within two weeks of each other, leaving the same committee. Not to mention others on PTA, including OBS, know of the affair. It would be very naive to think she doesn’t know. That also means her husband certainly knows.

DSL 6.29 @ 7:00something: To her, it’s as simple as she wants to do the dinner and she likes the friend. It’s not relevant to her how I feel.

I pushed for her to keep the dinner, but she is just entirely lost and confused.

i would be absolutely 100% fine with DSL stating that he does not want his wife to associate with said friend due to his wife's A (reasonable request!). i take issue with the fact that he's both "pushing for her to keep the dinner" and condemning her for keeping the dinner (seemingly in the same breath). -- that behavior is a concrete example of what i consider to be "punishment" and "jumping thru hoops"... mind games. then again, i guess there is perhaps a chance that DSL is unaware that he is even doing this (??).

I don’t think cheaters ever "get" the pain they have inflicted. If she had stabbed you in the gut it would take EMTs, an ambulance, the ER, a surgeon or two, nurses, long rehab and still it would take years for moderately good health to return. This wound is just as damaging. It is hidden from others but the pain is just as unbearable. When you give unconditional trust you open yourself to another to guard that trust. Lying, which is the twisted relative of cheating, is what often wrecks reconciliation. Trying to get a WS to be honest is pouring salt into your own wound.

I think some time apart is taking a deep breath. You need good, clean air to get through the roughest parts

DSL: The specific thing (I think) the polygrapher was referring to was my question to find out if my WW had been having sexual communication or EAs with men prior to the recent A. The polygrapher didn't think it was worth my time because anything short of sex wasn't a big deal. I found her position strange. Further, I found everything about her strange and didn't have faith in her as a professional. I decided not to enlist her services. I find your criticism of that decision misguided.

ahhh, i was just trying to figure out what the polygrapher actually said that you found unacceptable. in other words, i was simply asking for clarity regarding the communication between you and polygrapher. makes no difference to me if you do not enlist her services.

DSL: In your recent post you called me creepy and you told me I'm punishing my wife--I guess I just can't see your perspective as a very reasonable one. Further, you mischaracterized my "bus story" horribly, which I can only assume was an attempt to troll me or be flippant. I'll write it out again for others to read--they can decide if you're acting in good faith.

in regards to creepy and punishing-- if interested, please see my response to HF (where i clarify on this topic).

as to my mischaracterization of the bus story-- i know what you said, and i know what i said. but i think you missed the point entirely-- and that's okay. i don't need you or others to believe that i am acting in good faith, because i know my true intent. and i have faith in my own head and heart. of course it's an ugly story-- made uglier by the fact that your wife was involved in her A (and possibly in AP's bed) when she texted the message to her mom. but that doesn't erase the fact that the words were said/texted. my point is that there is likely some truth in her words here (and sure, she's shocked that she said/did what she did). but it's her lesson to learn what those words/actions did to you, to her, to her family ... and to authentically make amends when she is lovingly ready to do so.

in other words, telling her she has to quit badmouthing you to others isn't enough (and really isn't even the meat of the matter). she likely has to understand where her possible anger/resentment at you is coming from, why she felt she couldn't share issues with you eons ago, and if she even wants to be vulnerable enough with you to help you understand her poor choices. she has to be "allowed" to be who she is until she understands how to be better... and why it's in her best interest to want to be better.

seriously hoping i somehow made this more clear/better. sunny

edited for clarification

[This message edited by sundance at 4:21 AM, Saturday, July 2nd]

Sundance, respectfully, I really don't think you understand what a BS feels like. As a WS, that isn't unusual.

He doesn't want to to tell her what to do. He wants her to just know that this choice of friend is unhealthy for the marriage,and will hurt him,because this woman,as nice as she may be,is a direct contact with OM. Even if she isn't friends with him. OM will surely be brought into the conversation, at least initially, because as a newer friendship, it's one thing they can talk about.

It's a trigger.

He doesn't want to control her. He doesn't want to tell her she can't have friends. So he's trying to be ok with it. He wants to be ok with it. But,at 4 months out,he just isn't. He's not trying to send her mixed messages. It's confusing to him as well.

BS are often accused of sending mixed messages. WS don't get that we are traumatized. And that causes us to be just as confused as they are.

He doesn't want her to not have friends. And,maybe,eventually he will be comfortable with this friendship. But,he's realized,it's just too soon.

He wants her to realize that,without him having to tell her. That would show progress. And he wouldn't feel bad that he can't be ok with it.

As to the bus story. Being on the PTA, she would likely have the number for the bus driver,or the bus garage,so he could call and get the info he needed. It's not unusual that one parent has that info,and the other doesn't. That doesn't show that he was incapable of getting his child on the bus. And her calling to complain about him to her mother, is typical ws behavior..demonising the BS to justify their actions.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:44 PM, Saturday, July 2nd]

I do think you need a strong third party to enforce them at this time because she doesn’t get it and needs to hear if from someone other than you.

Redrock, that’s exactly how I feel—and my WW has told me she agrees. If my WW and I have a disagreement, she feels compelled to fight back and defend her ground. It’s a problem for a lot of reasons.

For one, she is *never* as prepared as I am at the start of a conflict because she never thinks passed the surface of the disagreement—she never sees where the discussion is going to go after the opening remarks. The result is she spends most of a conversation responding emotionally off the top of her head, not rationally. She knows how she feels, but she is quickly out of ammo and feels forced to keep defending herself with the first thing that pops into her head.

I’m far more measured in our conflicts. I know what she is going to say and I’ve considered my responses to it well before we have the discussion. And most importantly, I don’t engage in the conflict unless I feel strongly about it. If I’m in the wrong, I’ll quickly concede the point (it happens all the time)—but when that happens, I can tell she feels robbed. It’s like she caught me in a poor use of phrasing or I’ve over-extended a point and she thinks she’s about to "win"—but I’ll just apologize in the moment. It deflates her; and it’s not something she can do. If she sits down to have a conflict, she will *never* back down during the conflict—she’ll just go down in flames saying wacky things all the way to the bottom.

The result has been—she has apologized to me for every conflict we have had post-DDay (hours or days after the conflict), but she can’t get to the point of an apology until she goes through the motions of the conflict.

Using this dinner as an example, she absolutely recognizes (now) that it was not in the best interest of the M and it was not a hill she should have died on—but it took me about two days of discussions for her to concede that point. I’m glad she got there, but I need to find better ways for her to get there without me taking two days of abuse first.

My hope was that IC would help, but in none of her feedback does it sound like she’s doing any introspection there either. It sounds like she’s just giving the IC her skewed thoughts and looking for confirmation bias most of the time.

With MC, she’s being forced to be introspective because she can’t manipulate my position. I’m there to establish the context, which she then agrees with, and then the MC can take over. Everything is transparent and she has nothing to hide behind. She can’t lie if I’m sitting next to her.

So yes, I’m all in on the MC sessions and think the last few have been really valuable.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:15 PM, Saturday, July 2nd]

He doesn't want to to tell her what to do. He wants her to just know that this choice of friend is unhealthy for the marriage,and will hurt him,because this woman,as nice as she may be,is a direct contact with OM. Even if she isn't friends with him. OM will surely be brought into the conversation, at least initially, because as a newer friendship, it's one thing they can talk about.

It's a trigger.

He doesn't want to control her. He doesn't want to tell her she can't have friends. So he's trying to be ok with it. He wants to be ok with it. But,at 4 months out,he just isn't. He's not trying to send her mixed messages. It's confusing to him as well.

BS are often accused of sending mixed messages. WS don't get that we are traumatized. And that causes us to be just as confused as they are.

He doesn't want her to not have friends. And,maybe,eventually he will be comfortable with this friendship. But,he's realized,it's just too soon.

He wants her to realize that,without him having to tell her. That would show progress. And he wouldn't feel bad that he can't be ok with it.

I’m highlighting Hellfire’s post to confirm that’s exactly how I feel.

I also want to point out that I *hate* feeling this way. It’s completely absurd for me to have feelings that conflict with reason. I’ve never sat down with another person and opened up a sentence with "I feel…"—and it seems like it’s all I’m doing now.

I want her to go out to dinner with friends and I’m hurt at the thought of her going to that dinner. It is entirely frustrating to feel that way. And everything in my core told me to keep my mouth shut about it because my feelings were irrational, but as I’ve said, I like and trust our MC and I chose to follow her advice instead.

I also understand the criticism that my actions could be seen as manipulative—I suspect if I wasn’t living this hell, that’s precisely how I’d feel about it, objectively. How can I in good faith tell my wife to go to a dinner while also telling her I’m hurt by it. It doesn’t make sense. But my feelings are in direct conflict with my reason and I’m very much struggling to find a balance I’m comfortable with.

my point is that there is likely some truth in her words here (and sure, she's shocked that she said/did what she did).

There was *zero* truth to her words regarding the bus story. If the roles were reversed, and I was in the hotel and she was home with our children, my wife wouldn’t have been able to get my son to school. The only way he’d have gone to school that day would have been if I stopped fucking the woman I was with and drove home to take my son to school.

My competence is not an issue—I’m *highly* competent. My wife, less so. She has other virtues though—and I have other vices.

She sent the text to her mom because she felt guilty and thought deflating me would inflate her value in our relationship and help justify her decision to have fun on the side.

And to be clear, the above is not a response to you (Sundance)—feel free to ignore it or reply if you want—but you’ve decided to analyze and mischaracterize a story I posted 50~ pages ago, so I want to ensure any new reader in the thread has context.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:05 PM, Saturday, July 2nd]

Ultimately, I'll be fine with it--I'll do something fun with the kids on Friday--but it feels like it irrationally bothers me when it shouldn’t.

When you wrote this, I couldn’t help but think that part of you was annoyed by the choice of friends she wanted to bond with (understandable and I think you had a right to voice your concerns) but that another part was uneasy because she was doing something to be more independent from you and the M? This is understandable too in these circumstances but if there’s any truth in it, self-awareness is key.

Ultimately, one of the things you both need is the space to sort out yourselves independently from one another.