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Just Found Out :
Feeling Destroyed

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Buster123 ( member #65551) posted at 10:56 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

I agree with some of the content of the letter but not the entire thing, but at this stage a letter looks weak and could be used against you later in court, I would tell her some of those things but in person. She keeps sending you job postings, just tell her flat out you're not looking for a job right now and won't get a job until you are able to overcome the awful situation she's put you through PERIOD, that that could take a year or two maybe even longer, you've been at SAHD so why is she all of a sudden so interested in you going back to work ? tell her you will eventually do it but not for the time being. Whatever you need to say to her, tell her in person, that way you can also see her reaction and expression. She keeps doing exactly the opposite of what you're asking her to do, she knows you're allergic to dogs, you just reminded her of that, well instead she doubles down and is actively trying to get yet another dog that of course you will most likely wind up taking care of, you asked her to to stop the BC, after she initially agreed to do it, she now refuses to do it claiming some bullshit that was not a problem before, in other words she made get a vasectomy for nothing, again this is no time to show weakness, I strongly recommend you put your foot down and address this head on now, before you two go with her on a vacation from hell.

posts: 2738   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 10:57 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

Her actions:

Seeing an attorney day 1

Staying on BC (knowing you understand the connection with OM)

Sending you job info at this time

Now wanting a dog?

It all says you don't matter much to her. She is showing you the marriage will be on her terms at this time.

Her actions tell you what you need to know.

What are your actions telling her?

[This message edited by Marz at 4:57 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

posts: 6791   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 10:58 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

Jsmart said what I was going to. Your anger is valid. You just found out that she's been betraying you for a year. Of course you're angry! But don't send the letter. It's taking a big step back right into the codependency that you're trying to break. You don't need to drag her back into R by reminding her what she should be doing. That's what her books are for if she reads them and takes their advice.

Can I just say that it's astounding to me the way that she patronizes you and reminds you what you need to do for your healing like keeping your anger in check? She's not promoting healing. She's expecting you to take blame for the A and to rug sweep any negative feelings you have. She's treating this like a marriage issue so that she doesn't have to work on herself. Just get you to give in to every little thing that she desires as a consequence to the A that you caused by saying no too many times! No respect. No empathy. No remorse. The whole time you thought she was so sorry, regretful, and taking stock of her next steps to fix this, instead she was taking stock of every little thing you did wrong and how you could change that to make the marriage perfect for HER. Your pain be damned.

Step back. Step waaaay back. 180 her. No discussions other than putting your foot down about the dog, financials, and kids. Watch her but seriously start taking steps to protect yourself. Can't say for sure if she's plotting against you but there are several red flags (regret after lawyer, push for you to work with zero explanation given, acting like a victim of your anger) that suggest this is what's going on. Be very careful and think about a second meeting with a lawyer in case things continue going south.

posts: 5232   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8344049
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HouseOfPlane ( member #45739) posted at 11:29 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

Tell she can have the dog if you get to name it Howlimony.

DDay 1986: R'd, it was hard, hard work.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?”
― Mary Oliver

posts: 3366   ·   registered: Nov. 25th, 2014
id 8344066
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knucklehead ( member #2041) posted at 11:32 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

Bahama.

Look at my membership number. I’ve seen a lot here. I rarely, rarely post.

Jesus God, man. Her text to you was so calculated to paint you as an out of control, angry, near-abuser if not actually an abuser that frankly I’m pretty sure she is taking advice on how to frame you.

“I’m afraid of you...” You show incredible restraint and she is actively goading you.

The 180 means NO communication except finances or kids. These text exchanges are totally in her control and designed to continue HER journey out of infidelity...by dumping you.

Next time she texts you, respond “ is this about kids or joint finances? If not, no response.”

One exception: “A dog is a no-starter. When you show you can nurture a family and a marriage, it might be a consideration. You have shown you can only nurture yourself. Conversation over.”

In fact, I would set up an auto-respond in your email to any email from her. “WW, if this is not about kids or joint finances, there will be zero response.” Better yet, set up a folder and an email rule that automatically sends her emails to that folder without you seeing it. Then, the auto-response is “your missive has been received and will be answered in due course only if it relates to children or joint finances”.

Get that number off her phone and call the dog breeder. Tell them that your household is in turmoil due to your wife’s continued infidelity and that under no circumstances will a dog be cared for in this home. Practice it a LOT first so that your voice is washed clean of emotion.

Cancel the beach trip and spend the money filing divorce papers.

[This message edited by knucklehead at 5:51 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

"The argument that one doesn't have to take responsibility for what comes out of ones mouth because one has gone through something is bullshit." My good friend Archy. Archy for Prez!

posts: 6276   ·   registered: Aug. 21st, 2003   ·   location: The Gold Coast
id 8344071
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Robert22205https ( member #65547) posted at 11:34 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

I really think you should stop responding in writing to her accusations that you are hateful and/or angry or that she's afraid of you. It's ineffective and may be used against you in a custody hearing.

Just call the dog breeder and cancel the dog purchase.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 5:35 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

posts: 2598   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: DC
id 8344073
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 11:46 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

She just replied "You'll never want another dog. You didn't want our current one. I figured if I'm ever going to get another one it will be against your will anyways. I've asked for a dog for 3-years. The you yelling at me from the neighbors yard was hurtful, and you wouldn't tell me goodbye. I feel like I'm doing what I can to heal you but you are just so angry. I'm scared to talk to you. I don't know how you'll react and I don't know who you're going to tell the things I tell you."

As bizarre as that sounds, it's not unusual for a WS to fixate on something like this after DDay. Yeah, their minds are messed up, but if you think about it, rational people don't typically have affairs. So, all that messed up irrational energy has to go somewhere and it takes TIME to build skills and put it somewhere healthy.

My WH was likewise fixated on puppies, spending hours at a time looking through ads and sending me cute little furry faces in email. It took the place of all the hours each day he had spent in communication with OW and it occupied him while he was at loose ends and uncertain as to how to reengage with me. So, while I can't say for sure that this is what's going on with your WS, it's one possibility.

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7095   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8344077
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steadychevy ( member #42608) posted at 11:51 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

VAR, VAR, VAR. it seems to me she's setting up a scenario and creating "evidence". It seems to me she's goading you. Honestly, the vacation now worries me. You'll be together for several days. Keep the VAR with you at all times. DV is serious.

Keep copies of the e-mails or texts and write notes about them. Keep copies of this thread. Use any other evidence you have at your disposal to show your side. Is there someone you can talk to and relate what is going on?

Be careful, very careful.

BH(me)72(now); XWW 64; M 42 yrsDDay1-01/09/13;DDay2-26/10/13;DDay3-19/12/13;DDay4-21/01/14LTA-09/02-06/06? OM - COW 4 years; "dates" w/3 lovers post engagement;ONS w/stranger post commitment, lies, lies, liesSeparated 23/09/2017; D 16/03/2020

posts: 4719   ·   registered: Feb. 27th, 2014   ·   location: Canada
id 8344081
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Mene ( member #64377) posted at 11:54 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

Has she always been like this? Does she want a husband or a lap dog? She views you as a beta male. The AP as an alpha male. I read your posts and I cringe. Because I see how manipulative she is with you. Let me put it in bar terms: she wants to control you by the balls. Don’t allow this. I’m not truing to belittle you or make you overreact to her (maybe that’s what she wants). But I am and every one else trying to tell you to stop perusing her. Your letter if sent would give the message to her that you’re soft. Let me tell you buddy that you’re one hell of a mean fucker. You have just been through one of the toughest things any spouse can go through. You’ve done it without smashing the rich prick’s head and kicking your wife out of the house and going crazy at her. You contained yourself and that takes a lot of courage and effort. What you now need to do is show her that if she doesn’t want to redeem herself and fix this marriage (if that is what you want) you have options AND YOU WILL EXERCISE THEM. Stop chasing her. She should be moving heaven and earth to change herself and pursue you if she wants this marriage to be repaired or rather if she wants a new marriage with you because the old one is dead. Her actions at the moment demonstrate that she doesn’t respect you. And let’s be honest. If the rich bastard wanted her and left his wife, your wife would have left you in a heart beat. Just ponder that for a moment. You are her plan B and she resents that and you are even making it harder for her to accept that because you’re asking her to be remorseful and she doesn’t want to do that because that wasn’t her plan initially. She’s a really nasty spouse. I read your posts and it hurts me deeply to see how you’re treated. It also sends me the message that she will not respect you if you act like you desperately wan to save this “marriage”. As many say here, you have to risk losing your marriage to save it and she wants you to be in limbo land because she doesn’t REALLY want it. She’s a high achiever and appearances are important to her hence her rage that you shared this with her immediate family and shattered this illusion of the perfect doctor with the perfect career and family. The rich prick was going to be the icing on the cake but that fell over and I can tell you with almost certainty that had she ran off with him she wouldn’t have mentioned anything about having an extramarital affair and that she met him after you separated. Unfortunately for her, this deranged fantasy fell over when the rich dude dumped her. What was she expecting from him? If he really wanted to leave his wife he would have during the affair. Stupid people...

Life wasn’t meant to be fair...

posts: 874   ·   registered: Jul. 7th, 2018   ·   location: Cyberland
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Sharkman ( member #56818) posted at 11:54 PM on Wednesday, March 13th, 2019

180 + VAR + IC for you + concentrating on drinking enough water and eating healthy. You’re ther rock that your little girls are going to have to depend on. Take care of yourself.

posts: 1788   ·   registered: Jan. 11th, 2017
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k8la ( member #38408) posted at 12:14 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

She loves putting you in the position of being a rescuer to her emotions. Make yourself immune to her tears. Study the 180 like your life depends on it, because it does. And I second (or third) the vote for a VAR on your person at all times.

posts: 1462   ·   registered: Feb. 9th, 2013
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MrRadical ( new member #69908) posted at 12:14 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

Bahama. PLEASE PLEASE give THE most serious consideration to not going on the Vacation with your wife. Members here are really afraid of what might happen to you there. It feels like a trap is being set. Strongly urge you to suggest to your wife to go with your daughters without you.

ADVANTAGES:

1) Several days for her to reflect on what she really wants to do with the rest of her life.

2) Time with her daughters to remind her the importance of her family. Something she does actually have.

3) No chance of any 'incident' that could be used against you.

4) Time for you to reflect on your life and see a Lawyer.

IF you go the chances of it being the vacation from hell are seriously high my friend.

dunno if there is any possibility this could be considered child abandonment in anyway? Perhaps one for your lawyer

[This message edited by MrRadical at 6:25 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

posts: 46   ·   registered: Feb. 28th, 2019   ·   location: UK
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WorstClubEver ( member #63820) posted at 12:16 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

God what a bad day I'm having.

((Bahama))

Part of me sees her as a manipulative person who is trying to prod me into presenting her with a D, and the other side is me seeing her as so broken and unsure what to do that she just seems irrational.

I actually disagree with those who think it's the former. But I think the latter is a little too, erm, understanding.

Your WW is in toddler-mode right now. That is what is happening. The confusion and anger--do they remind you a little of when you've tried to reason with one of your kids, at toddler age?

I bet it does. Because that is where her mental state is right now. She has regressed into a completely self-absorbed, irrational state. Throwing away your integrity and then collapsing into shame and self-pity will do that to a person.

Thing is, she is doing this to herself. Just like a toddler does. Without help, a toddler will spiral into hysterical oblivion.

This is where your parenting skills will come in handy.

What I see in your letter, and your texts, is that you are trying so hard to explain yourself and defend the fact that your reactions to her and requests of her are reasonable (which ANY SANE ADULT HUMAN can see they are, and that hers are batshit crazy). But just like a toddler, she is UNABLE to hear any of that right now. She is all "me me me me me, I'm hurting! Look at me!" This is typical of cheaters whose heads are still way up their asses. They are basically toddlers.

So. The solution is to keep it simple and calm, but set very firm, utterly unbendable boundaries. Just like you would with a toddler. "I understand you feel like you will catch on fire and die if daddy doesn't buy you that ice cream RIGHT NOW. I'm sorry you feel so bad. But you have two choices: you can eat your hot dog and clean up your toys now, and then daddy will get you the ice cream, or else daddy can run you a bath and start getting your ready for bed, no ice cream." And no matter WHAT kind of ridiculous shenanigans the toddler pulls next, just repeat that a couple of times, and then follow through. Calmly, but firmly.

This is essentially the advice you are getting from everyone, but I am hoping the metaphor will help. You are not going to be able to "nice" or "reason" your WW out of this ridiculous state she is in. You will have to clear-choice and firm-boundary her and let her dig herself into whatever hole she needs to (including pushing you to start the D process), and at some point she is going to hit rock bottom and be forced back into reason by reality--the reality YOU create. At that point, she will either realize that D truly is fine with her (in which case, much better to know) or else that she had better wake the F up and start acting like a grown-up if she wants to win you back.

Hang in there. Remember: you are the prize.

"There is nothing stronger than a broken woman who has rebuilt herself." -Hannah Gadsby

posts: 170   ·   registered: May. 18th, 2018
id 8344088
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ShutterHappy ( member #64318) posted at 12:24 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

I’m leaning more toward what ChamomileTea has said about the jobs. I think she’s trying to fix whatever was frustrating her. I’m not saying she’s right but rather trying to explain what she’s doing.

My advice? Ask her calmly why she’s sending job postings. I know that my take is just about the opposite of everybody else but it can be useful sometimes to have different opinions.

She might be trying to "fix things" but she’s clueless and doing it wrong.

Edit: I’m in agreement with WorstClubEver

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 6:32 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

Me: BH
Divorced, remarried.
I plan on living forever. So far so good

posts: 1534   ·   registered: Jun. 30th, 2018   ·   location: In my house
id 8344094
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OrdinaryDude ( member #55676) posted at 12:24 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

Translation of her last few texts...I, I, I, me, me, me.

She couldn’t be any clearer.

I was young and dumb and stayed with a cheater.

posts: 3427   ·   registered: Oct. 19th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8344095
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NoOptTo ( member #62958) posted at 12:32 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

Glad you spoke to another lawyer today. Please research high friction divorce lawyers. Seems as if you are going to be in for a fight if you choose to D. Your WW will start slinging as much mud at you as she can to help cover her shame that she is feeling. Please protect yourself.

posts: 642   ·   registered: Mar. 6th, 2018   ·   location: New York
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Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 12:45 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

Bahama, this was an affair because people don’t talk about leaving their spouses unless they are emotionally invested. In your pain you need to understand that her brain is controlled by some pretty powerful hormones right now. She is probably as irrational as she will ever be in her life. Don’t try to make sense of her senseless behavior. It will do you no good. She has to come out of Limerence before she can discuss this with you rationally. This is just days after discovery and the day before that she was all into the affair. This takes time and feels so unfair to you. Getting a dog is irrational, walking forever is irrational. She is in mourning. I wish it wasn’t true but this is the s*** sandwich the bs has to eat.

Look after yourself. Your kids need you.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 6:46 PM, March 13th (Wednesday)]

When things go wrong, don’t go with them. Elvis

posts: 4540   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
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M1965 ( member #57009) posted at 12:49 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

Bahama,

The posting of hyperlinks is very much discouraged, but I found this online and I think it would be a timely read for you:

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The Best Way to Deal With Controlling People

No one should have to fit someone else's reality. There's a way out.

If someone defines you, even in subtle ways, they are pretending to know the unknowable. There is a quality of fantasy to their words and sometimes to their actions. Even so, they are usually unaware of the fact that they are playing “let’s pretend.” They fool themselves and sometimes others into thinking that what they are saying is true or that what they are doing is right. When people “make up” your reality—as if they were you—they are trying to control you, even when they don’t realize it. —Evans, Patricia (2009), Controlling People (p. 58). Adams Media.

Control is a big problem in relationships—romantic, professional, familial, friendship. When people control you, they “make up” your reality, as Evans puts it. They don’t respect you the way you are. They want to change you, make you different, more similar to the image they have or want to have of you. They want to make you fit their reality, so they don’t have to face the fact that their reality may be wrong.

Control can be ever so subtle, hidden behind the pretense of help, advice, a suggestion, or a joke. But it is none of those things—it is a conscious or subconscious attempt to rip out your soul and put in a new one: The one they created.

If you recognize controlling people and stand up to them, then the controller loses. He or she fails to replace your inner self with the one they created.

The problem is: Most people do not know how to recognize controlling people. Why? Because most controllers are expert, and subtle in their approaches. They have refined their techniques over many years, and they take over your life when you least expect it. And then the real you is gone, or at least hidden away. It can take some people years to rediscover their true selves after leaving a controller’s orbit.

Evans asks us to consider the following case of a controlling husband:

At a farmer’s market on a recent Saturday morning in a nearby town, I stood in line behind a well-dressed elderly couple waiting to buy corn. When their turn came I heard the woman ask for two dozen ears of corn. They were being sold at three ears for a dollar. She handed over two ten-dollar bills. When she received her change, she expressed surprise because it included one of the ten-dollar bills. “Wow! I didn’t think I’d get this much back for twenty-four ears,” she said, laughing. “Guess it’s too early in the morning to figure it.” Suddenly everyone’s attention was riveted on the man with her, as he shouted angrily, “She can’t even count the goddamn change!” The woman, seemingly as shocked by his roaring declaration as were the bystanders, was silent. But she seemed stunned. [...] As I thought about the incident, I found it most significant that the husband [...] pretended that his wife couldn’t count change and acted as if that “fact” appalled and infuriated him. Moreover, it seemed as if he were restricted in some way from finding out if what appalled him might not be true. —Evans (2009), Controlling People (p. 103).

A grumpy husband, a Saturday morning at a farmer’s market. “Poor woman,” we might think. But most of us fail to realize that her husband wasn’t just a little grumpy. He had long ago replaced the inner self of his wife with his own fantasy of someone who couldn’t even count the change.

Controllers are hard to spot and can turn the tables on you. As Evans points out, “when a Controller hears a plea such as, ‘Please don’t talk to me like that,’ the Controller will usually say something like, ‘I don’t need to be attacked like that,’ or, incredibly, ‘You’re trying to control me,' or, ‘I don’t know why you have to start a fight just when everything’s going fine.’" (Evans 2009. Controlling People, p. 128).

Or they might make up excuses for their behavior: “It was well meant”; “I was just giving you some advice”; “If you want to accomplish all the things you say you do, then you really ought to think about how you behave”; “If I don’t tell you, no one else will”; “Come on, I was just kidding.”

People who are under the spell of a controller are often just that—under a spell. They may start believing the story the controller tells them, and then they can no longer find themselves within the collection of illusions that he or she has installed in them.

Still, waking up from the spell and finding one's true self can be done, if one is willing and courageous enough to find his or her own boundaries and find a way to separate reality from fiction.

As Evans puts it:

If they are willing, the Spellbound can awake from their dream world by seeing the spell for what it is, and by remembering how they fell under it. By courageously facing their separateness and trusting in their true connectedness, they can find the strength to stand on their own two feet, apart from the other. If they accept the reality of their interconnectedness as well as the reality of their separateness, they can, with this two-fold awareness, begin to render possible what had before seemed impossible. They can break the spell’s influence over them. And they can bring awareness to others. —Evans (2009), Controlling People (p. 251).

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I took the liberty of putting parts of the piece in bold, where I thought they are particularly relevant.

Here is another useful 'checklist' type article:

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Six Things Controlling People Do and How to Deal with Them

Controlling people can be found in all areas of life. Controlling relationships can be romantic or platonic. You can find them in the workplace, at home or even in passing interactions with strangers on the street.

Being around controlling people can be extremely emotionally draining, leaving you stressed out and confused. Take a step back and assess all the relationships you have in your life. Do any of them leave you feeling suffocated or distressed? Is there someone you feel you have to tip-toe around or always consider how best to please them?

If you answered yes to the above, then you may have controlling people within your life.

A controlling person shouldn’t be confused with a forceful personality, it is more about how they make you feel. If they are a big character but allow you to totally be yourself, then they may not be a controlling person.

The following 6 signs will help you distinguish if you have controlling people within your life:

1. Their behaviour is inconsistent.

Controlling people often manipulate others by making them feel like they are ‘everything’ for a short amount of time. They may flatter you, compliment you or even buy you gifts.

Be wary though, as this praise and affection can quickly change to belittling and bullying. The inconsistency is confusing because you’re not sure where you stand with someone. This puts you on the backfoot and gives the other person the control they desire.

2. They don’t accept responsibility for their mistakes.

Controlling people often have a problem with the words ‘no’ and ‘sorry’. They won’t take no for answer because they are determined to have their way. As a result, controlling people often excel in corporate environments where they climb a career ladder without concern for people around them.

Similarly, controlling people struggle with saying sorry in a genuine capacity. This is because saying sorry would suggest that they were in the wrong and put them in a weaker social position.

3. They want you all to themselves.

A classic sign of a controlling person is that they want you all to their self. They may suggest that you ‘don’t need anyone else’ and gradually isolate you from other friends and family.

This creates a co-dependency over time that leaves you in a position where you are more susceptible to being controlled. This behaviour is especially common in romantic relationships with controlling people.

4. They want to change you.

Controlling people almost treat other people like ‘projects’ and will often want to change you into the person that suits them best.

For example, perhaps they want someone to accompany them to trendy parties. They may start suggesting you dress in certain ways that suit them and make them feel good. This not only knocks your self-confidence but after time, will make you question your own identity and self-worth.

5. There is always someone else.

Controlling people often hedge their bets and keep several people close to them. Not only does this mean that there are more people to control, but it puts others in a vulnerable position. If the controlling person isn’t getting their way, they can threaten to leave and focus their attention on someone else.

Suddenly, they may start ignoring your calls because they are busy with someone else. This leaves you feeling needy and again more susceptible to being controlled.

6. They’re jealous.

Jealousy is often the most obvious sign of weakness in a controlling person. They hate the thought that someone else could have your attention. They may try and sabotage your relationships with other people by telling you that they are no good for you or by starting rumours about the other person. If this is ignored, it can provoke a controlling person into more extreme behaviour.

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Here is another useful piece:

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10 Diversion Tactics Manipulative People Use to Silence You

Many times people who were in a relationship with manipulative people did not realise it until they left it.

Only then, when they looked back objectively, did it become clear the extent of how much they had been degraded.

This is because we try to make sense of manipulative people, such as narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths, by our own standards of behaviour. But they do not follow societal rules, and as such, employ a range of tactics that confuse and distort our sense of reality.

Here are ten of them:

1. Gaslighting

Gaslighting is a form of mental manipulation in which the perpetrator uses emotional and psychological methods of intimidation to convince his or her victim that they are going insane.

The term comes from the 1938 film Gas Light, where a husband wants to drive his wife mad and dims the gas lights in their house, but tells his wife she has imagined it. He uses this and various other methods to convince her she is going crazy.

2. Projection

Manipulative people often use projection as a way to deflect from their own shortcomings. Projection is a way of putting the emphasis on another person and highlighting (or making up) a negative aspect of their partner’s behaviour.

For example, a husband might be having an affair but instead of apologising to his wife, he may call up her clingy behaviour as the reason for his affair. A sacked employee might blame their work colleagues and say she was constantly picked on.

3. Frustrating conversations

Ever had a conversation with someone that ended up in you walking off, absolutely dazed and confused, wondering what the hell just happened? You’ve probably been chatting to a narcissist or a psychopath.

These types of manipulative people use words like bullets in order to steer you away from any truth they don’t want you to know. Especially if you happen to be challenging them. They will do everything in their power to confuse, distract and frustrate you from knowing the truth.

4. Moving the goal posts

A manipulative person doesn’t actually want you to succeed in anything and therefore they will do their utmost to make sure this doesn’t happen. They will move the goal posts in order to see you fail. Once this has happened they can then be justified in their disappointment in you. Even if you reach their expectations time and time again, be prepared for the goal to be higher than you realised. It is their way of saying to you that you will never be good enough in their eyes.

5. They change the subject

A narcissist will always want to be the topic of conversation unless they are in some sort of firing line, so this changing the subject works in two ways. If you are boring them by talking about yourself for too long, they will quickly bring the topic back to themselves. For example – talking about the march you went on to support Gay Rights? They had a friend who died for the cause.

If they are being held accountable for some misdemeanour, however, they will want to get off subject immediately, and it will be at your expense. Talk about them not holding a job for a while and they will bring up the hideous way your mother treated them at a birthday party and how are they supposed to work after that?

6. Love-bombing and devaluation

Manipulative people shower you with affection, attention and adoration until you are hooked. The minute you are, however, and you start to think that you have the beginnings of a great relationship, they turn stroppy.

All the things they did at the beginning of the relationship, the constant texting, phone calls, meeting up at weekends, all instigated by them by the way, are now classed as weird behaviour by you and you are the one being clingy and needy.

7. Triangulation

Adding a third person into the mix that agrees with the abuser against you is another favourite trick of toxic and manipulative people.

They use this third person to validate their own abusive behaviour and often disguise it as joking but in their eyes they mean it. The third person will see it as light-hearted banter and go along with it, not knowing the full extent of the abuse. The abusive person does this mainly so that the victim is left questioning themselves.

8. Cruel comments disguised as jokes

Don’t you hate it when someone says a really cruel thing about someone and then covers it up by saying ‘Only joking!’ To me, that is such as cop out.

Using this method is a licence to be nasty without anyone calling you out on it, because if you do you are then labelled as precious or sensitive, or you can’t take a joke. Really this is verbal abuse and should be called out whenever it is seen.

9. Condescending and patronising

Even though the toxic person will constantly have temper tantrums and probably deserve to be spoken to in a condescending way, it is they that speak to their victims in this manner.

Of course, it is a form of control and shaming their victims and they take great delight in doing it not only in public but in private too. They use patronising speech to silence and intimidate you into losing your confidence. And it is a Catch 22 situation, as the less confidence you have, the less patronising they have to do. It is a win-win for the abuser.

10. Control

At the end of the day, it is all about control for the manipulative abuser. They ultimately want complete control over you. They want to isolate you from your friends and family, control your money and freedom, make sure they know exactly who you spend time with (if anyone) and, most importantly, have control over your mental health.

This is more often than not via their moods. You might never know what mood they will be in on a day to day basis, or what sets them off. It could be something different every day, making it virtually impossible to keep them happy.

They can manufacture an argument out of thin air which leaves you feeling tense and uncomfortable in your own living space.

******************************************

It does not take a lot to pick out examples of this kind of behaviour in your wife's recent actions.

On the plus side, there are a lot of resources out there to help deal with controlling people, and if you have time during the day, perhaps you can go online and explore them.

You are not alone, Bahama. A lot of people are rooting for you.

posts: 1277   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2017   ·   location: South East of England
id 8344104
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swmnbc ( member #49344) posted at 1:24 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

She's decided she doesn't have to play by the rules, but you still are. So any volleying of the ball back and forth is never going to end in your favor. The only way you can come out ahead (or at least not behind) is not to play.

That means you don't send her three text messages explaining yourself when she keeps insisting that up is down and night is day.

I'd just make simple, factual statements. "I do not consent to getting another dog." Then she hits the ball back and you just let it fly past you and roll itself under a bench somewhere. You will *never* get her to show you more consideration or remorse or rationality by hitting the ball back. So just don't do it.

posts: 1843   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2015
id 8344126
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 Bahama (original poster member #69853) posted at 2:42 AM on Thursday, March 14th, 2019

I hear everyone. I'm in the arena here and looking at the situation. My mind listens to what you all are saying but my gut is contrarian to the masses. Just because I know my W, I really don't think she is manipulating me right now. She has battled depression long before this event. Post-partum depression set in after our first daughter was born. She take meds but it only takes the edge off. I think this increased feeling of depression is the reason she balked at dropping the BC pills. They are helping her hold on now.

I agree that she is not acting rational. Not at all. The puppy idea, the job postings, etc. just threw me for a loop. I know some of you will yell and scream at me NOOOOOO!, but I honestly feel that she is just not of sound mind enough to plot and scheme the way some of you are suggesting right now. I see her face and her tears and her body language. I think she is in a very deep depression. Perhaps even deeper than I am if there is such a place. I honestly don't now how she's able to function at work and not kill someone. Her world has crumbled alongside mine. She felt trapped in what she thought was an unsatisfactory marriage and now she's thrown back into that yet even worse she has a destroyed spouse to care for.

I know we're never going to have a shot at working things out with her if I keep second guessing everything she says and does and vice versa. I'm not suggesting that I'm going to be stupid and ignore the obvious. I honestly think in her own broken way that she is trying to help me (though not enough and stumbling, I know). Perhaps sometimes little actions are actually more important that the big ones we are expecting or demanding. It would be easy for her to not do the little things she's been doing to let me know she cares and is trying.

While she is trying to help me she is also dealing with her own shit storm of a fall out from this. It's hard work. I've had the luxury of being at home, crying and having time to think this all through. I've had conversations with family and friends about it all. I have this SI forum to help me. She has none of these things and has been working almost non-stop in a busy ER. I need to cut her some slack. My d-day was only 19 days ago. I confronted her only 16 days ago. I think perhaps I'm expecting too much too soon as some have suggested. She's not herself.

I've been looking at the progress the OBS and her H have made and perhaps was using that as a yardstick for where I should be and what my W should be doing. That's unfair to her. They aren't rubber stamps. I think my wife obviously had a much stronger emotional attachment to her AP. That's not an easy turn to go from fantasy with a friend/lover to dumped and back to an unpleasant reality. I think what others have said could be true, WW's tend to take longer to come around to deeper remorse. Instead of being the punisher, I feel I need to still be the great husband I am.

Given all this, I took the vulnerable road and reached out to her. I didn't cry and tell her I'm sorry. I just let her know that I was still here with her as we work through this. I'm keeping boundaries in place and not totally letting my guard down, but I reached out to her to let her know I was still here for her. She sounded so weak and sad. I think I've been pushing her to the brink. I understand that I need to work this through; that she should pay for what she's done. But for how long and at what pace? This process doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a constantly changing dynamic with no rules.

We need to create some rules. We need to show some respect towards one another no matter how we are feeling at any given moment. We need to listen again instead of just planning what we are going to say and defending our positions. Actions do matter and perhaps are more truthful than words right now. I'll be watching while I listen.

I'm still maintaining a soft 180, but I want to give her a chance. She's off work for the next two weeks. Once she has the time off to think and recuperate I suspect some big changes in her behavior. Hopefully they are positive for the situation but we'll see. I am still going to Florida for our family vacation. It's not a trap or set-up. It's been planned for some time now and we both owe it to our girls to go and try to have fun.

I worry some of you on here who are pushing me hard for D or drastic measures are perhaps projecting what happened in your situation onto me. Every situation is different even if you do see trends and repeated history. I have been studying stock trading for a few years now. What I've learned is that to trade well you basically look for technical evidence and history that shift the odds of a movement in your direction. It's a process of percentages. However, if you've ever traded stocks you should know that the markets can do anything at anytime and can't be predicted. I can't tell you how many times I've had the perfect technical set-up and a history that says it will do this 95% of the time at a certain time of the year, yet it turns against me for a loss. You all see the history from others on here. You see the technical evidence and you are making your bets on how this will go. But this situation is controlled by the same thing the stock markets are controlled by and that is people. Anything can happen. The great traders use the evidence and history, but always trust their guts based on experience. I have a lot of experience with my W. I'm going to trust my gut now despite some contradictory evidence. We both need to heal to R. She's never going to heal if I keep attacking her.

Old softie Bahama here. I'm not going to drag her towards R, she still has to get there. I'm just going to give her some time and a chance. Let's see what happens.

One day at a time, one moment at a time.

D-Day 2/22/19
Confrontation 2/25/19

posts: 65   ·   registered: Feb. 23rd, 2019   ·   location: Tennessee
id 8344167
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