SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Owning and Silver,

We have as many stories of betrayals here as we have members. Some are stories of abuse. I apologize for not knowing your stories and your pain.

No one should have access to anyone’s body, either child or adult. No one should force themselves on anyone else. That’s rape. No one should emotionally abuse someone. Those are all givens.

I Don’t truly believe that was what this thread, and all the responses, was ever about.

Silver, you don't deserve to feel this way. Get away and start over with someone who will respect you. And you respect yourself. The cheating, name calling, degrading acts....why do you need to continue any of this?

This is a depressing situation. Do you think you were meant to live a life like this? I didn't deserve what happened to me. I don't care what happened, who did what first, all that matters now is that you live a life where you arent being constantly punished by yourself or anyone else. I mean it, you don't have to go one one more day like this. You tried it, it's awful, now leave it behind. You're not being forced to serve time.

Go and be free. No one should be used like that. There is absolutely NO excuse. People say some strong stuff here. I think people excuse plenty of horrible human behavior. Why stay together and cling to such misery and darkness? If you feel you deserve it, or some such, you need some help. No human was meant for that. You will never find human goodness and love this way. Life's more than these ridiculous games. We make mistakes. Fine, learn from it and go on. Don't stunt your spiritual growth and your ability to have a healthy emotional life because ..........

I can't think of one good reason to put up with that.

Silver, If “mister” Silver cheated first, and in seriatim thereafter, then his opinion is valueless. You should be calling the shots.

You guys... you're very kind to me to worry. Where I am now, I'm not hurting anyone anymore. That's why I'm here.

Speaking of hurting, how do we bridge between the BHs and the WWs in this whole discussion? Are folks getting some hopeful ideas from talking to each other?

(((more hugs for everyone)))

I never believed in being selfish, so I couldn’t process why others could and hurt me in the process

I'm so sorry, NNM.

I think I remember reading that there were times you (or possibly other BHs, I might be getting you mixed up, and I'm sorry for that) self-blame for your WWs infidelities. Don't. Focus on the thought you have above. It puts the responsibility where it belongs - on the people who were selfish and hurt you in the process.

"he primary purpose for insisting that a WS offer that which was given to the AP is fairness. The second is a matter of demanding respect. The third is reclaimation. And the fourth is punishment. Any one of these reasons is valid—and enough.

He or she can say no. In which case: see you in court!"

in other words, let me do something to you sexually you don't want or I will divorce you. prove you respect me by offering up yourself sexually. here, let me whip your butt for what you did honey.

nice.

I wouldn't use the word valid for this. I'd use rape.

Seward- We can always count on you to make a comment that is sanctimonious and strong opinioned, but please let let it have some basis in truth.

Calling that rape is an insult and disservice to people who HAVE been raped, and I think you know it. That’s an extreme and inaccurate word to try and prove your point, and I’d urge you to think about it. When the operative word is choice, it’s not rape. But, you can say the choice is not a pleasant one. Hell you could even say the choice seems cruel. I’d stand by that, but it’s a choice nonetheless, and when someone’s free to walk, it’s not force.

If we don’t like choices offered to us, I.e. divorce,perhaps we must evaluate what the poor choices we made are, to have yielded us options we don’t like. As far as I see it, a WS is fortunate to not be divorced right away anyway. At least this way, they have another chance, as much as you might abhor the terms of that chance.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 6:03 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

Not agreeing nice, and I’ll call it how I see it. I consider my voice the one ifcreason, not caring what you think.

Sex for punishment, when a person stands to lose everything, is rape.

And your oh but you deserved it comment. Wow.

[This message edited by sewardak at 6:33 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

Sex for punishment, when a person stands to lose everything, is rape.

This is completely false. I would consider manipulation, coercion and the threat of exposure by OM to my WW to keep the relationship going more rape than anything she is willingly doing for me now to have a second chance with me.

She tried breaking up with OM several times and each time he cried, begged and manipulated her by making her feel guilty or with threats of losing her career. To me that's fucking rape even though she says it isn't. She knows she was used by this POS but felt powerless to do anything but keep it going to keep it quiet.

sewardak, it's NOT RAPE it's consequences! Apparently you are one of the ones that think that there should be no "uncomfortable situations" imposed on the wandering spouse. We should apologize to the WW for being upset that she was a porn star for her AP and just a starfish for us???

How do you suppose she is to make things "right" for us??? Or is amends simply a non-acceptable concept when it comes to women. What we want from the WW is at least "Parity" with the AP, how do YOU think she should re-establish any sort of balance??? What do YOU think the consequences for ripping our heart out of our chest and shitting in the spot our heart used to be???

You say that to ASK for the same things she gave the AP is wrong and we should simply move straight to divorce! NO possibility for saving the marriage because sewardak thinks "it's rapey".

What "punishment" is OK with YOU after all YOU are the last word on all marital difficulties?

Or is the "Punishment" for the WW to be seduced into loving us more? It is NOT really a punishment it is a result of her doing EXACTLY WHAT I WANT HER TO DO with the wrong man.

He or she can say no. In which case: see you in court!"

So if you do this or I divorce your cheating lying ass then its rapey? I thought rape meant you have no choice. Clearly there is a choice. Do what your skanky ass did with AP OR divorce...

[This message edited by Randy1133 at 7:27 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

Calling that rape is an insult and disservice to people who HAVE been raped, and I think you know it. That’s an extreme and inaccurate word to try and prove your point, and I’d urge you to think about it. When the operative word is choice, it’s not rape. But, you can say the choice is not a pleasant one. Hell you could even say the choice seems cruel. I’d stand by that, but it’s a choice nonetheless, and when someone’s free to walk, it’s not force.

Yes it is. Rape is crime of violence. This is not a crime (putting conditions on the sexuality you want from a marriage) and there's no violence. Sure, you might not like the outcomes; you might not like the coherenced nature of it, but it's not rape, frankly, it's insulting to those who have been raped to even say that this compares to what happened to them. This is about as "rapey" as a wife saying "If you come to my sister-in-laws party tonight, I think you might get some special sex on the way home". Actions, meet consequences. And really people, "consequences"? We are talking about sex here, not a beating in the back yard with a baseball bat or a public stoning. Sexual actions that the WS already did with the AP. So, what she punishing herself having that kind of sex with the AP? Was the AP raping her too?

Or is amends simply a non-acceptable concept when it comes to women.

Seems that's where we wind up. Or, putting it in slightly less inflammatory terms, "amends don't apply to sex". Which is kind of saying the same thing, because, as man after man here has said, the amends they want from a WW are sexual; they want to have the best possible sexual relationship with their wives, whatever that means to them (but it usually means the same thing, more of it, better sex with more acts) and that particular "amend" is unacceptable. Anything else is OK, polys/VARs/monitoring communications/financial. Just not that.

You say that to ASK for the same things she gave the AP is wrong and we should simply move straight to divorce! NO possibility for saving the marriage because sewardak thinks "it's rapey".

Another consistent message I've gotten from this thread; just divorce, because to make it right requires raping your wife and/or accepting what so many of have said is unacceptable. It's a shame, but, maybe that really is the answer that we should give BH's who are in this situation. She'll never want to do it with you (whatever it is), and even asking for it has a threat of force associated with it; so either live with it (impossible for many/most) or D. Or, a slightly more positive spin, and what I always wanted, we should tell WW's "whatever you did with your AP, make sure you do it with your H, immediately, before he asks, and make sure it's more/better/kinkier". If you won't, then D. Because the "rapey" aspect of this is all around men asking for it, if women just did it, it would, I think, in many posters minds, be fine. But we don't give that advice, in fact, we often give the opposite advice; fix yourself first, establish your boundaries, and work on the relationship.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:34 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

"No I was referring back to your previous post where a WW felt that performing anal with her husband would further shame her. (I can’t quote on the cell phone so I’m paraphrasing what you actually posted.)

But my question is, if performing one sex act brought out her shame, wouldn’t all sex acts (performed with her husband after performing them with her OM) bring the same shame? "

It is not that the WW had sex with the OM.

It is that the WW did sex act/s with the OM that

she never did with her BH, and refuses to do after

the affair is over.

The WW did things out of character. This is the

only source of her feeling shame. There is no

reason that the WW would not want to do with her

BH after the affair that she did with her BH

before the affair.

Though sexual recovery after D day is never in

a straight line. Some HB some do not HB. Some

cannot have sex for 6 months then have HB.

Some have HB then cannot have sex for 6 months.

This applies to all, WH, WW, BH, BW. And this

can happen even when the WS did not do things

with the AP that they did not do with their BS.

(Edited to remove my hilarious but inflammatory response)

[This message edited by PlanC at 7:51 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

"My body is not all of me, Nicenomore. It is only men that see it as the one and only important aspect.

Unacceptable and disrespectful.

I prefer divorce.

Eta: it is only when someone (my H) values the other parts of me that I would ever share my body. My AP? He got the worst of me. If my H can't see that, we have nothing to work on."

He only got the worst of me.............

A BH see's that no matter how little the WW gave to

her OM it will always be too much. Sad that you

only see it from your side.

A BH see's that no matter how little the WW gave to her OM it will always be too much.

And there you have it. Deal-breaker.

When your WW's only two choices are acting like she's enthusiastic about her husband's carte blanche ownership of whatever orifice of her body he chooses to put his penis into or to be summarily divorced, there's nothing for her to save. I would advise any fWW in this situation to escape it immediately.

And what of WW that have not yet earned “former” in front of the WW?

I have to admit that I didn't read every single comment posted in this thread. I did read the first page, and I read a couple of the last pages. I see a lot of anger posted to Ward others that don't share the same beliefs. Not sure if my opinion will be seen or even cared about, but I'm going to give it a go anyway.

I am a BH. As far as some of the sex acts that were performed, I didn't really ask too many questions. My reason for not asking is I wasn't sure if I could handle the answers and how the truths might damage me even more. I'm not saying that's right approach for everyone, it's just the approach that I personally have taken.

I did ask her if she did anything with him that she has never done with me. I believe her, judging by What we have done, and what has always been an off-limits thing. Anal would be an off-limits type thing. I personally don't really have an interest in it, and I am quite confident that is mutual.

I consider myself a reasonable person. I wouldn't want to do anything that is degrading or humiliating to the person that I chose to spend the rest of my life with. For each their own on that I guess. If you're into anal, watersports, or whatever, as long as it's mutually consensual, it doesn't matter to me if you have a wall of Rubber Chickens and a can of Crisco next to them for your bedroom liFe.

I will tell you this though, if I found out that she participated in more than we have done, and I then made the request, it would be extremely detrimental to our reconciliation if she refused. To know that she gave herself to someone else is totally ego crushing, humiliating, and the worst thing a woman can do to a man in my opinion. If she refused, I would view it as her saying that I am not worth whatever pain and humiliation she went through, which seems pretty hypocritical considering the pain and humiliation that I may have went through. The only difference in the pain and humiliation is that she chose to subject yourself to it, whereas I was not given that choice.

I am not sure if her refusal wood be a total deal-breaker for me, but it would definitely tip the scales quite a bit towards divorce. I'm sorry if that sounds unfair, but just trying to be honest about it. You gave away something that wasn't yours to give away, and destroyed me in the process.

From a man's point of view, I think I can say that a PA is more impacting than an EA. I was the lucky one that had to deal with both through one affiar (EA turned to a PA). Yes, it hurts tremendously knowing that she said that she loved him. It hurt knowing that she was more into him than she was into me at the time. The physical part is the most soul-crushing though.

i disagree. I think it's rape. I'm not the authority on marital discourse but neither is anyone here. and we all have rights to our opinions. I stand by mine.

there is no amend that will make it up. none. you can't get something back that's already been given away. the unfairness of it cannot be remedied by justice. there is none that would be big enough.

[This message edited by sewardak at 8:31 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

I don't view it as rape. I think more of quid pro quo. My reason for that is that cheating is a deal-breaker in any marriage. Period. I think if you're offered a chance to redeem yourself, you should at least entertain the idea.

Let's be realistic here. I don't think that there's too many people that didn't entertain the idea of divorcing on D Day. I know I sure as hell did, and I still tossing around the idea quite a bit. You were willing to do all of this stuff with an AP, yet not with the person that has supported you either emotionally or financially throughout your marriage? As I said before, it's your choice if you choose to do what BS has requested, just as you had the same choice to do things with your AP. The BS was not given the same consideration to deal with his or her pain that you've inflicted on them forever.

If you think that your husband expecting sex in a marriage is rapey, then I guess it would be fair to say that if he supported you financially during your affair, that could be considered Grand Theft.