SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, while this thread drags on. And on. And on. I feel that now would be a good time to give an example of ultimate advice:

Journal.

So lie about it or just refuse to be open? Either approach is a bigger dealbreaker to me than refusing a sex act.

I would never recommend lying, but I would say that it would be better for the WW to leave the relationship than to end up in the one-down position sexually for the rest of her life. It's unfortunate, but when a woman cheats, losing the marriage was the risk she took. No one is owed reconciliation. If not sharing the sexual details is a deal-breaker, so be it. Sharing those details appears to be an even worse outcome.

You guys set out to convince female minds. I'm convinced.

And here

Yes, we are.

And after reading this thread, I would never again recommend to any wayward female that she give sexual details to her betrayed partner. I've read many infidelity experts who say the same, but before now I didn't understand why. Now, I do.

Ugh.. the message always gets diluted with grandiose generalized political or gender specific statements to avoid the heart of the issue. Chamomile, making your statement to imply this convo backfired and turned your mind the other way doesn’t invalidate it all. In fact it just reiterates how important getting through uncomfortable subjects is, even if the truth hurts. And your not a WS, so objectively, your not even who this conversation applies to.

I could tell a BH To do what I did, and bang the OBW, or the WW sister to rub her nose in it right and make her suffer right?I mean it would make the BS feel better...right?

But I won’t do that, know why? Because it’s not GOOD advice, just advice. Try to see things objectively, without an agenda, which is what the original poster here was trying to address. Just because you don’t like the reality of a situation, or the feelings it envokes, doesn’t make it less real. If I get fired from work tomorrow, I won’t like how I feel, but finding a million ways to say I shouldn’t have been fired isn’t going to get me paid.

It’s not about rape, it’s not about force, it’s not about abuse in ANY form. It’s about what a bs needs to heal (bh seems to be a default here in the sexual context of needs), and what the WS is WILLING to do and WANTS to do to give it. A discussion to bridge the divide, or even lack of communication to understanding the difference in whys. But something. Not accusations of rape or harm, punishment. That’s not the point, not the reality, not the message and never was. Silver hit the nail on the head before trying to understand the dynamic.

She approached it thoughtfully, and without ANY gender bias, she approached it with logic.

If a bs isn’t getting their needs met to consider R, they should walk. For many BH, this is a need, like it or not. If the WS can’t wrap their head around why, or from what I am seeing here, refuse to, they can walk too, and the BS is better off anyway.

It boggles my mind how this goes south so fast for no reason.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 12:20 PM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

Sharing those details appears to be an even worse outcome.

And that worse outcome would be what? Doing the things with her H that she freely did with her AP, and should want to freely do with her H if she loves him?

I suppose this is the difference between men and women, but I'd MUCH rather (not even in the same universe) have some sex that was to my wife's liking to help her heal from my hypothetical A than to lose my marriage. Even if it wasn't my favorite thing to do. I do things sexually that aren't my "favorite" all the time.

WW to leave the relationship than to end up in the one-down position sexually for the rest of her life.

Leave the relationship or put her BH into a "one-down" position sexually for the rest of the marriage. You left that part out, all we're talking about it "restoring parity" for BS's. They are, by definition, ALWAYS going to be 'one down' from the wayward, because, there's nothing "kinkier" than having A sex in most people's eyes.

Does that sort of capture where everyone's pain is, now?

The following is JMO.

Not for me. Not at all.

Getting out of infidelity requires staying out of Drama Triangles. Thinking of om as the winner and the BS as the loser requires the BS to take on the Victim role in a DT.

Healing starts with questions like:

What positive outcomes do I want?

Are those positive outcomes attainable?

What do I have to do to attain them?

What do I need from other people to attain them?

If you're male, you need, or need to develop, an innate sense of being a man, even though you've been cuckolded.

And you need to realize the betrayal, and everything about it, is your W's issue.

R requires, among other things, (re)building your M. That's a joint project. The M has to serve both of you. Certainly that can fail if you're too far apart on sex, but I think most of us can find a way that pleases both parties.

R requires a long term commitment. A manipulative WW can easily agree to perform a service while being committed only to herself. A BS who accepts the sex 'given' to the ap as the price of R may be - and probably is - selling himself pretty cheap.

As I said, JMO.

voice of reason ^^

After reading this thread, I've realized how much mind-fuckery I was saved by having a remorseless WW that I could easily divorce. I think the amount of not only lost trust, but lost respect (for your spouse and yourself for staying) after an A really torpedos most chances at overcoming A's.

My WW's mom and all her friends told her not to tell me any details of the affair. I was ready to D immediately after DD. Already had a lawyer and paperwork ready.

Communicating about the affair is the only thing that kept me engaged with her and has got us this far. Lack of communication is probably the #1 reason all of these issues start anyways. By advocating continuing to lie and hide and be deceitful you're only encouraging WW's to stay broken people forever and not heal.

Yes many of the details are difficult to discuss and may end up being deal breakers anyways. The A already killed the M. But hey, at least you were open and honest for once.

My WW was bound and determined to carry this secret to her grave. She wouldn't have been able to though because the guilt was eating her soul. After she finally confessed you could see that burden ease but then the real work had to begin.

If a WW cannot be open and honest about the A then they should let their H go as they should have done that before starting a new relationship anyways.

And after reading this thread, I would never again recommend to any wayward female that she give sexual details to her betrayed partner. I've read many infidelity experts who say the same, but before now I didn't understand why. Now, I do.

That is a ridiculous thing to say. Most BS's want to know the details and now you are telling WS's to keep it to themselves-that will end M's pretty quick. BS's get all the details they want if R is on the table. No ws's, doctors or BS's get to tell a BS what they need or want to heal or consider R.

I am horrified that it was posted. What would you tell the wayward to do, refuse to give details? - I got to have loads of extra sex, fun and ego kibbles and I don't have to tell my spouse about it? Thats just keeping the A alive and well in a wayward mind. NO SECRETS in a M.

It’s not about rape, it’s not about force, it’s not about abuse in ANY form. It’s about what a bs needs to heal (bh seems to be a default here in the sexual context of needs), and what the WS is WILLING to do and WANTS to do to give it.

I think you're attempting to water down the message now. These guys have been pretty clear with the either/or dynamic of their message.

Sisson is right. There's no reconciliation without getting out of the Drama Triangle.

Further, I just read a new thread in JFO where the OP got details seven years after the fact and he's wrecked. As I said, you guys set out to convince people, and I'm convinced. Sexual details add fuel to fire and apparently makes the victim role harder to escape.

So, while this thread drags on. And on. And on. I feel that now would be a good time to give an example of ultimate advice:

Journal.

I'm thinking the answer just get fucking divorced ASAP post d day

Threads like these make me realize how unlikely true R really is. Maybe R is possible in specific circumstances and depending upon the people involved. Hell if I know.

It just seems like the whole M post infidelity is a huge compromise for both parties.

Tell WWs to hide details about their infidelity from their BHs. That's where we are?

I guess then as a part of man code I have to tell men to hide their finances.

I'm thinking the answer just get fucking divorced ASAP post d day

That's the message that I'm getting here too. You're never gonna get the "good stuff" as a faithful husband, in fact, if you even mention it, it's rapey to think about wanting to do things with your W that the AP did.

Frankly, the worst part of it all.. It really says to men, if you want the "good stuff" be the AP, not the H. Which is a message that's delivered to men over and over by "red pill" websites. A message I never really believed, some of their stuff is more "hating women" than it is useful (and I thought this was an example of it). This item, however, I've apparently incorrectly categorized.

What the hell is happening?

AP are able to invest nothing, lie, give fake love and get all the kinky sex from WW.

The H just gets the leftovers during the A and then after isn't supposed to hear the details let alone get any kinky sex?

Just divorce!!!! Men don't have to take this shit!!!! Take her to the cleaners, expose her to every one of her friends, family, coworkers and community and burn her life and AP's life to the ground if that's the attitude of a WW. Scorched earth policy is the only thing to do after infidelity.

ChamomileTea of my wife had taken your new view we would not be married today. I would not want to take away any change for a couple to reconcile. You are saying to a WW that there is no chance to reconcile and that is not true. I do hope you change your mind on that.

I think everyone needs a hug, or a fist bump. I'll take the hug. My hand is sore after having an accident with a screw...Gash through hand sort of deal.

If I may ask:. What need does doing what your wife did with AP with you satisfy? I don't think I wrote that question correctly so I'm hoping you understand what I mean.

Not sharing details if requested = divorce

Not giving the BS that which was given the AP (if desired by the BS) = divorce

Sounds like CT’s advice should only pertain to hypocritical WW. Because only a particularly selfish hypocrite would do something for the AP they wouldn’t do for the BS.

By all means, CT, provide that valuable advice to the most fucked-up of fuck ups. And, meanwhile, I will keep urging polygraphs and post-nups to the betrayed spouses.

[This message edited by PlanC at 1:02 PM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

And after reading this thread, I would never again recommend to any wayward female that she give sexual details to her betrayed partner. I've read many infidelity experts who say the same, but before now I didn't understand why. Now, I do.

Seriously? You would recommend that a WS refuse to offer details to the BS? The vast majority of BS's want every last detail and you are now protecting a WW and her A? WTF?

When do we ask the WS's if they considered the consequence of offering forbidden sexual acts to AP over BS? When do we tell them to think before they act. When do we tell them that this is a consequence for their shit choices? Nope, we are now telling WW's to with hold the details so that their BH don't feel that they deserve the same sexual acts. Nope, lets advise the WW to keep their dirty secrets a secret. Lets keep the A alive and well inside the WW brain shall we?

I am literally disgusted that was posted on SI anywhere. my WH's IC told him that I shouldn't want the details because it would give me mind movies......I was fuming mad and went ballistic for that statement. BS's get to decide what they want to know and when. BS's get to decide what will help them heal. BS's also, generally, have more mind movies than what the truth of the details are and the truth usually eliminates some.

Okay, rant over about that post.

Why is it so difficult to accept act everyone gets to choose what they want in R or in M and can leave if they are not getting what they want.

No one is talking about force. No one. I feel like there are people that are digging their heels in to try to prove their initial feelings are the only truth.

There are many different opinions. There are people who have no interest in getting what AP got, and there are others that are adamant that they do......that is completely fine. It certainly isn't a reason to council WW's to refuse details to their BH"S. Everyone gets to choose what is right for them. When a BS makes a sexual act a requirement of R, the WS can choose to say no. BS can then decide to D if thats what they want. WS's can decide to D if they don't like the terms. I don't get why this is a huge discussion.

I will say that i would never R with someone who trusted a specific sex act or wanted a specific sex act with an Ap over me. It would make me feel like second best and that is not okay with me.

The details are very difficult to hear and to get over but by god, its very crucial to most BS's so they know exactly what they are trying to "get past".

I think its a sad situation when a WS would do something with their AP, then decide they don't like it and refuse their BS. Maybe, just maybe, they will like it with their BS.

I am also wondering if the push back in this thread regarding the "BH wanting what was given the AP" is from people who are refusing sexual acts, based on reasons that they don't fully think should really be acceptable. eg.....I HATED BJ's for a long time. I used to believe and tell WH that it was because of my jaws-that have muscles that are too big-and would tire easily. That was truth, BUT it was not the real truth. I didn't want to do it because I felt resentful of WH.....this was before DDay. I didn't even realize it at the time. I accepted that my dislike was my jaw but miraculously, its not as big an issue now that we have worked on our M and our sex life.

eta- yes, I am in a pissy mood today

[This message edited by deephurt at 1:00 PM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

Just divorce!!!! Men don't have to take this shit!!!! Take her to the cleaners, expose her to every one of her friends, family, coworkers and community and burn her life and AP's life to the ground if that's the attitude of a WW. Scorched earth policy is the only thing to do after infidelity.

Wrong, you can do all the shit after you divorce. Because the way laws are, she will most likely take you to the cleaners (esp if you piss her off). So be amicable, play on her guilt, then you can burn her life down after she signs. Usually though, after the paper has been signed, you just don't give 2 fucks anymore.

[This message edited by Randy1133 at 1:06 PM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

I am also wondering if the push back in this thread regarding the "BH wanting what was given the AP" is from people who are refusing sexual acts, based on reasons that they don't fully think should really be acceptable. eg.....I HATED BJ's for a long time. I used to believe and tell WH that it was because of my jaws-that have muscles that are too big-and would tire easily. That was truth, BUT it was not the real truth. I didn't want to do it because I felt resentful of WH.....this was before DDay. I didn't even realize it at the time. I accepted that my dislike was my jaw but miraculously, its not as big an issue now that we have worked on our M and our sex life.

DH. Your whole post, but especially the quoted. I just want to say, it was incredibly brave of you to post this, and thank you. Yes, it plays into the story that exists in my (and other men's heads), but, it also happens to be, in your case, and many other cases, true. What a woman will/won't do with you, or her desire to do things, men read that, right or wrong, as an indication of the level of love/trust/caring in the relationship. What you described is EXACTLY the experience I had when I was dating; the girl my friend dated who "wouldn't put out" (sorry, that's was the term at the time) I'd date and she'd be a complete hellcat in bed. And girls who I dated and never got anywhere with, my friends would date and relay their stories of sexual exploits. No, I'm not saying any of this is right, in fact, I'm a bit embarrassed that it happened at all (bragging about sex), but it did happen. And those experiences show us, in no uncertain terms, that what a woman will/won't do with you sexually is more about you than it is about her (not entirely, but it has a strong impact). I think that all men know this or kind of know it, which is why this becomes such a sticking point for us in R.

I will add, it's also a sticking point in M (without an A), because it's hard to be refused things knowing that some other guy could get them with your W. Because, except for the craziest things out there (which have not been discussed on here at all, thank god!), in my mind, most women will be "up for anything" if they are deeply attracted to the man.

And that's the problem. Because while we all can kind of suspend reality for our wives; "she just can't give a BJ because of her jaw" (not to pick on you, just using it as an example) while we'll say it, we'll try to believe it, we know.. Deep down, she can and would do it if I was a better man/more attractive to her/more masculine/bigger muscles/bigger penis/richer (pick your painful comparison point).