SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I love getting oral. If my husband decided,years ago he no longer wanted to do that,for whatever reason, it would bother me,but I would accept it because I wouldn't want him to do something sexually that made him uncomfortable.

But, if after he cheated, I were to find out that he willingly,and enthusiastically, went down on OW, then yes, I would expect him to do the same to me.

If he refused, or didn't want to, then I would know it's not that he hates oral, but that he hates oral with me.

And, while he would be free to not have to do that, I would have to divorce him. Because it would be such blatant rejection, it would shatter my soul.

So while I understand what many of the women here are saying, I completely understand what the men are saying as well.

Thank you.

Is it all about love languages, maybe?

Yes.

What I really struggle with is, and maybe this is a different thread, but is this really a thing? That there are so many women doing so many different things with their affair partners that they didn't do with their Hs? And then why the hell is that? Why on earth would a woman take it in the ass from a stranger and not her husband? That's weird. That seems like some really aggressive acting out to me. Like, that's ALL about control, in my mind. "I won't do that with you, but I'll do that with him or anyone else..." doesn't that sound really controlling?

Yes it is a thing, yes it's very common. It's almost a trope, the shy, sexually introverted wife that lets herself go with the affair partner. I don't know HOW common, but I know that I lived it, and I know other men here lived it, and I have two friends that lived it. If you figure out the why, write a book and I'll buy it, because it's still something that really bothers me years later. I don't know if I'll ever stop wondering what it was that was wrong with me.

What I really struggle with is, and maybe this is a different thread, but is this really a thing? That there are so many women doing so many different things with their affair partners that they didn't do with their Hs? And then why the hell is that? Why on earth would a woman take it in the ass from a stranger and not her husband? That's weird. That seems like some really aggressive acting out to me. Like, that's ALL about control, in my mind. "I won't do that with you, but I'll do that with him or anyone else..." doesn't that sound really controlling?

Yes, it's really a thing. It's very, very common; so much so that often a BH will be warned, either in a JFO thread or privately, "get ready for it". It's usually anal, sometimes BJs or swallowing, and sometimes just the quantity of sex (more sex in a weekend with the AP than the H had all year, or has ever had with his WW in their relationship in the same period of time).

But yes, sadly, it's a thing, an incredibly common thing, which is why I think this thread started such a s**tstorm. And, to the point of this thread, it's also very common that the WW decides in R not to do whatever it was with the H; which, is really the major point here. We get it, we know male AP's push for anal/swallowing/etc. We don't like it, in fact, we hate it and it rips us apart, but we know it happens commonly. But to not bring that back into the marriage when it's something that most men desire, some greatly desire, after the A? That's a bite too big of the old SS for many; and, my point from the beginning, if you're going in with that attitude (AP gets anal 5X a day, you'll never get it), D is the "right" answer, IMHO.

So...

so much so that often a BH will be warned, either in a JFO thread or privately, "get ready for it". It's usually anal, sometimes BJs or swallowing, and sometimes just the quantity of sex (more sex in a weekend with the AP than the H had all year, or has ever had with his WW in their relationship in the same period of time).

I've seen that, and I think that you're a poster frequently warning new BHs about that if I remember correctly. But I am honestly not seeing a ton of BHs coming in and saying: "OMG, she's done anal with him and not me."

Look, in the early days of relationships it seems to me that there is a lot more sexual adventure and willingness. I know for sure that there is a lot more foreplay, when men are hunting they are really keen to chat to you about how sexy you are and how badly they want you and all the rest(which is pretty critical for women...we need our minds to be in it) and as the relationship goes on, it becomes less foreplay, and a lot more of "hey, it's morning. I'm hard. Let's do it. Thanks, I'm going to work."

But, I think that after a certain point in a marriage, for whoever knows what reason, guys don't ask for new and exciting anymore and they stop chasing and then women lose interest. Both partners tend to employ the same old moves and it isn't as, frankly, sexy as it was in the beginning.

But what you all are saying that women, in their entire relationship with a man who is now her husband, never, I mean, not even in the early early days, goes down or never has anal... And then they have an AP and they suddenly do all that stuff and more? That's very deliberate as your describing it.

I would suspect that, just as she did in the early days with her now betrayed husband, a cheating woman is probably feeling more pursued, and hence sexier and then is willing to do all the adventuring that she did early in her relationship with her husband. Even if the affair partner is full of crap and doing it only to get laid. The WW is probably doing it only to get laid too, or rather to feel pursued and sexy and vital and noticed. I imagine that's what goes through their heads. I mean, it is fucked up of course and wrong and proves their extreme brokenness, but you know...its ultimately biology too. If a woman feels desired and attractive, that can give her the feels.

But I may start a thread about this, because I feel like I'm jacking this thread and I don't want to do that.

I don't think you are thread-jacking. I agree with what you are saying, and it's pertinent.

I would suspect that, just as she did in the early days with her now betrayed husband, a cheating woman is probably feeling more pursued, and hence sexier and then is willing to do all the adventuring that she did early in her relationship with her husband. Even if the affair partner is full of crap and doing it only to get laid. The WW is probably doing it only to get laid too, or rather to feel pursued and sexy and vital and noticed. I imagine that's what goes through their heads. I mean, it is fucked up of course and wrong and proves their extreme brokenness, but you know...its ultimately biology too. If a woman feels desired and attractive, that can give her the feels.

I agree. There is clearly something wrong here. The issue is that the effort was made with the AP, and communication wasn't attempted with the BH. By all means, women deserve to feel sexy, and be pursued. I unfortunately got that info after two affairs and before some others. Seems pretty disingenuous to bring that up after the fact.

IMO, WW who give it all to the AP but not the BS are not the norm, but the fact pattern is not uncommon.

One variation is the WW who wants to be wanton but does not want anyone whose opinion she might value to see that side of her.

Another variation is the WW who is still in love with the AP but is doing what is necessary to preserve the status quo before she exits.

The third is a WW who is doing whatever is necessary to keep the validation from the new, exciting mysterious partner (que red pill theory here).

Truly mentally ill WW are a rare subset.

So: not the norm but not rare, either.

I've seen that, and I think that you're a poster frequently warning new BHs about that if I remember correctly. But I am honestly not seeing a ton of BHs coming in and saying: "OMG, she's done anal with him and not me."

I occasionally talk to men about it, usually privately. But sometimes, I see a JFO where I have to jump in; W was in an A for for 6 months and only gave him a HJ once.. Ugh, not likely, prepare yourself for BJs/swallowing and anal, because it probably happened. If the poster is in na-na land, I'll try to snap them out of it, but there are a lot of us who echo the message, not to be mean, but to warn and get the BH ready. People did it for me when I JFO, and I appreciated it, although nothing really prepares you for the reality of how bad it is.

But, I think that after a certain point in a marriage, for whoever knows what reason, guys don't ask for new and exciting anymore and they stop chasing and then women lose interest. Both partners tend to employ the same old moves and it isn't as, frankly, sexy as it was in the beginning.

I agree, but, I will add it's because I'd been told "no" so many times. Anything I asked about was basically a "no". Even things we did do sexually beyond basic PIV sex were difficult and made me feel like she didn't want to do it. I think it's gets stale because often times, the man gets tired of being shot down.

But what you all are saying that women, in their entire relationship with a man who is now her husband, never, I mean, not even in the early early days, goes down or never has anal... And then they have an AP and they suddenly do all that stuff and more? That's very deliberate as your describing it.

Exactly what I and others are saying. That's the situation we're talking about here..

But I may start a thread about this, because I feel like I'm jacking this thread and I don't want to do that.

Please do. There are a few right now about this issue, but, it's absolutely critical to recovery for so many men, I can't see us having too many.

So: not the norm but not rare, either

I'm not sure I agree with it. Yes, there are some WW's who just have vanilla sex with their APs, but I don't often see them on here. I think there are quite a few men who've "done it all" with their wives already, so, they are automatically excluded from the "she did with him what she won't do with me category". But, putting some criteria on it, if the A was more than a one night thing and there were things the WS and BS hadn't done together, I think it's pretty common (50%?) that there's stuff on the AP/WS list that's not on the WS/BS list. It's common enough to get us 600 replies on this thread, if that tells us anything!

One variation is the WW who wants to be wanton but does not want anyone whose opinion she might value to see that side of her.

Think this was my ww's category.

Think this was my ww's category.

I totally understand the mindset here. I am not saying it is healthy or right, just that I totally get it.

eta: which I did post about this mentality way, way back in the beginning of this thread. And, this has to do with shame. And when BH's "demand" these same acts I feel that this may kick WW's into a shame spiral (their fault, I know) and it makes it even harder for them to be able to really want to participate in those acts with their BH's.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:20 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Rideitout

agree, but, I will add it's because I'd been told "no" so many times. Anything I asked about was basically a "no". Even things we did do sexually beyond basic PIV sex were difficult and made me feel like she didn't want to do it. I think it's gets stale because often times, the man gets tired of being shot down.

Oh yes, I see what you're saying here. That seems very familiar. I mean, we women all have those girlfriends who really see sex as a chore etc. But I really feel like that's the exception vs the rule. We'll see. I've started a new thread to do some digging into this.

I was also thinking: It takes two to keep things hot and spicy. Right? Because I know there are a TON of women who moan about 'he just rolls over and wants me to have sex, because: morning wood'. Thing is, that's on the woman too. It is up to both partners to remain sexy and sexually open. Who wants to pursue someone who is doing nothing to invite pursuit? Likewise who wants to be adventurous with someone who never builds some kind of sexy narrative throughout the day to get her warmed up?

Someone mentioned communication breaking down and I agree. If you don't communicate that you're not feeling sexy and pursued, and then go out and have an affair with lots of revengy sorts of sex acts mixed in... then that's a bad thing.

But do men really have open ears about this? REALLY? Or would, "hey, I need to have you pursue me, build up a story, woo me a little bit instead of just expect me to respond to your morning poke in the back" fall on kind of deaf ears, especially if the guy is exhausted from work and stressed over bills and all the other day-to-day things that weary a man etc.? See, I think that women also get a little bit tired of being turned down.

I'm here to tell you that women need a wind up. If you demand that your WW suddenly give up her ass, you may get her to do it, but she won't like it (unless it is maybe fulfilling some kind of masochistic wanton woman fantasy that she is grooving on). But if you go about it in a way that makes her feel desired, even if it is kind of like: "I'm reclaiming you...and this is what I want" but in a sexy, wooing way, she'll probably go for it because it may actually turn her on.

And maybe that's the whole point of some of the push back. Because the way some guys here are describing it is so clinical, like, "bend over, I'll drive". That's going to feel very rapey to women, especially women who have #metoo issues (which, frankly, most of us do).

Even a WW is going to want some finesse, I suspect. That's probably why you read about some BHs who say their WWs ask them to woo them. It seems totally counterintuitive, but that's the female biology at work. I think.

I'm not a professional, obviously.

But to answer the original post, and based on some of this dialogue: I would say that IMHO I don't think that this is some hidden or explicit male agenda designed to degrade and hurt women in general or the women here specifically (who have already been, many of them, really hurt and degraded). I think this is just men actually being honest about stuff that they need. And because we are women, and our values are (neither wrongly nor rightly) skewed differently.

" I think this is just men actually being honest about stuff that they need. And because we are women, and our values are (neither wrongly nor rightly) skewed differently."

^^why this thread has gone on for so many pages. those of us in one camp will never convince the others.

I think the thread has been very enlightened. And i think objectively, even if you don't agree with everything that has been said one way or another. It definitely has shed alot of light on how people perceive things.

Jay mom,

I think you make some great points.

However, I did not start this thread to shame men because they feel a certain way about the specificity of sex acts.

This was started because some male posters responded to seemingly every male OP with a , “use that slut,” “make sure you get all sex acts and better for yourself,” etc.

Not on sexual threads or in response to questions asked. Just a throwing out there of the above.

I maintain that some male posters are driving their agenda. Maybe they are trolls, or maybe in their pain this is how they choose to lash out. I don’t know.

What I do know, and what has been so painfully described here by both sexes, sexual details do matter. They may matter in different ways, but they matter. Many males here have expressed things that make females uncorfortable. I get that. But their feelings are real.

I truly doff my hat to everyone who participated in this thread. Enlightening, to say the least.

GEB

I also have mad respect for everyone who has participated and it has been such an enlightening thread on both sides. I definitely understand both sides of it.

I think that you have a point, there may be some who are being too aggressive (and maybe they do have an agenda), but I also think that some of them are projecting because of extreme pain and I also think that some of them are doing the equivalent of jumping up and down saying: "you need to be careful you're going to be hurt here, something is going to blindside you and I'm trying to get people to understand!!"

Some may be just big jerks for sure. But I think that most are in earnest.

But still -- respect to everyone who has shared here, and I do not want to cast shade on anyone's thoughts. They are all interesting. I've learned TONS. Also it has sparked some very interesting conversations with my new beginning SO.

But social advent doesn’t outweigh evolution. That’s why the feelings ARE real.

All feelings are real. Doesn't mean they need to be acted upon. I had a strong desire to go and kick the OW to the ground. I did not do that and realised that doing so would go against my moral fibre, even though it might provide temporary emotional satisfaction.

So women are saying it's their right to fuck anyone they want outside of their marriage and do whatever sex acts with that person and then they expect the BH to take them back after they are caught with no conditions or demands.

I haven't seen a single post that says it is ok for women to have sex with APs. I haven't seen a single post that says a BH has to take his WW back. What most women are saying here is that demanding sex is demeaning.

as a BH, if my wife can’t get to the point of understanding and wanting to give me the pleasure she willingly gave another man who isn’t invested as much as I have, I know I deserve better, and am free to leave, and she has no grounds to say she did everything to save the marriage.

nicenomore, actually no one should do everything to save a marriage. The goal should be to become a better person with strong moral principles, not to save the marriage at any cost. If that had been my WH's attitude, I would lose respect for him.

Do it or I divorce isn't a demand, its an option isn't it?

Yes, it is an option, and a person with a strong sense of self worth will walk out. But broken/weak WSs allow themselves to be humiliated even further because they feel they deserve to be punished.

However, Robin, you did clearly equate sexual acts with love. And that is exactly how I see it, and how a lot of men here see it. It may not be how you see it, and you just stumbled on your words, but; I find it near impossible to believe that any woman over the age of about 15 doesn't know that men see it that way. Sex, sexual exploration and limits, those are the ways that many men gauge how much a woman "loves" us.

Really? I always thought that it was easier for men to have casual sex since men don't equate sex with love? And the women participating in these casual encounters don't equate sex with love either.

Biology and evolution are real, and have a real impact on our psyche on a deep level... because they are ingrained. What is fight or flight? A Social response?

But you can choose to o beyond the animal instincts and neither fight nor run away.

Why does a parent sacrifice their life to save her children? Social norms? Or biological mechanism to ensure the progeny survive?

It is a combination of both. I might run into a burning building to save my friend. No biological imperatives there. All that we do as human beings is not driven by animal instincts. We have the ability to choose.

Bartering for sex one way or another makes you a whore in my book

Then a WW who performs sex acts she does not like to stay married is bartering sex acts for marriage. That makes her a whore, right?

But, if after he cheated, I were to find out that he willingly,and enthusiastically, went down on OW, then yes, I would expect him to do the same to me.

If he refused, or didn't want to, then I would know it's not that he hates oral, but that he hates oral with me.

And, while he would be free to not have to do that, I would have to divorce him.

Hellfire, I understand that, but would you say to your WH "Go down on me or we divorce?" That would be demeaning to both, right? If it is a dealbreaker, then get out. My issue is not so much with men wanting these acts. It is the tone that says "do this or else".

Interestingly, we also hear a lot about hysterical bonding after DDay. While the advice generally given may include caution in that regard, I have never read anyone object to a BW using her WH sexually.

Perhaps I haven't posted enough, but I cringe when I see those comments. Or the ones where BWs are told it is ok to treat their WHs like shit because they deserve it. I don't have a gender agenda. My only take is this... anything provided under coercion or conditions is inauthentic. And I don't want anything inauthentic in my life. I did not even ask my WH for NC with OW. I just watched what choices he made on his own, without me threatening divorce or other consequences... and that allowed me to make my choices.

And once I decided to work on R, I wasn't going to disrespect my WH in any way. I wanted to see him work through his insecurities and find the strength within. He was initially trying to agree with me on everything. But that was detrimental to R. To me, we started R when he found his conviction and started to stand up for himself, hold his ground. I want an equal partner, not a subordinate.

If your WW is not giving you what you want willingly, of her own free will, you will be better off divorcing.

No, I wouldn't say "go down on me or we divorce."

I would imagine,I'd find out he did it with her,and I'd tell him since he seems to like it so much,that I'd like it if we incorporated it back into our routine,so to speak. If he said no..or if he just failed to do so during sex...then I wouldn't humiliate myself by reminding him, or by threatening him.

I think, if it were to get to that point..that he knows I love it..and he knows I know he did it to her..but he continued to deny me..then no, I wouldn't make any threats, or ultimatums. Because I would then know what my deal breakers are, and that would be it for me. I would remove myself from the marriage. His refusal would tell me,or at least,it would make me feel as if he found me unworthy, or not as sexy or attractive as the OW. He made me feel second best by having an affair. I will not feel that way during reconciliation. Not for a minute.

I may not deserve oral. But I deserve respect, and to feel loved and safe,and secure, with my husband. In,and out, of the bedroom.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:47 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Ephimera you make some very good points. Absolutely the tone of demand for sex is something that is harsh to hear. Absolutely.

But this:

It is the tone that says "do this or else".

is heard all the time and championed.

"Take a poly or else..." for one thing.

I've also read where BWs expect upgrades on things, like cars and trips and jewelry, as retribution (or restitution) for the affair. Or they will comment that they got an upgrade on something like that and that's okay because that's the least they deserve. But to me that's their WH's catering to what they know is something their wife values...

This is the same thing to me. How is it not the same thing? Just because it is a sexual demand?

I would find having to take a polygraph very demeaning and I would find having to demand it also upsetting. But I would never tell a BW that she shouldn't demand it if she needs it to heal. And I'd fully support her choice to kick him to the curb if he doesn't.

Now...I've read a bit more in this thread and in other threads and there are some guys who are posting angry stuff about women being used up after they've had affairs and one in this thread, I *think* it was Randy in this thread, who said something about being wayward wives being reduced to the level of slut, like there was some scale where she was elevated from slut to maybe girlfriend and then to wife and then got busted back down to slut again once there had been an affair.

That to me is a bridge too far largely because that statement is a real generalization, one that says all women are sluts and they are only elevated above that by men who choose to date and/or marry them. And that is absolutely offensive and wrongheaded and I think that's the kind of posting that the OP was speaking to where there is some agenda involved. I also think it is exceedingly rare for there to be that much vitriol.

Bottom line is if you think your wife is a slut, then divorce her and move on. But don't paint all women with the same brush because that's just absurd and illogical. It says more about the guy talking like that than it does about women in general.

What did I say?? Lol

Deleted since I double posted.

[This message edited by Ephimera at 7:20 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]