SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hook his phone up to a text recovery program like Dr. Fone and see what it finds.

I did and still do worry about the emotional entanglement you talk about. Especially because she ended the affair.

I know you do. You have mentioned it. Your feelings on that are influencing my responses to you. (but hey, as a fellow betrayed I might be taking on your feelings versus being completely objective so...)

I think because of those facts and your feelings about them, it makes breaking NC feel even worse. You are not sure you are chosen. You are not sure you are deeply loved. We all feel that way after infidelity but I can see the extra doubt based on AP ending the affair.

He needs to work triple time to correct that. How is he going to make you feel valued? How is he going to show his commitment to you? He needs to answer those questions and then get to work.

I know waywards have pain and loss and fear and all of that. But that's the hard work they have to do - fix their own shit and not lay it at the feet of their betrayed spouse. Or worse, hurt them again because of it. Let him do the work and show you what he's made of.

I hope he surprises you.

I did and still do worry about the emotional entanglement you talk about. Especially because she ended the affair.

She initiated contact the last time, right? If that's the case, and if his account of their last conversation is true, she pursued him and he rejected her. He essentially got the last word. That changes the dynamic.

Cedarwoods, am I correct in thinking that perhaps you find it quite hard to assert your needs and feelings in your marriage?

Where you say "In WH’s mind, i was never plan B so he didn’t feel the need to prove that to me. If that makes any sense." But surely he must fully appreciate that just because that is whats in his mind, it does not fix how you (understandably) feel? How much have you really driven your feelings home to him? Did you make your requirements for R, clear?

Whether your husband is or is not telling the truth about the content of the messages/phone call, to me, feels like a secondary concern. And no one here can possibly know the truth.

I feel for you so much because not only has he broken NC (even assuming she did initiate contact), he has purposefully had to unblock her, arrange a time to call, mentally prepare for said phone call, delete the evidence - and keep all of this from you, during every discussion you have had, for 6 whole months. All of this has had to happen, even if his story is all entirely true. Which of course, it very well might be.

It's the lying and deceit that floors me 😞 This was the perfect opportunity to really show you that you come first and that he is worthy of you.

If you decide to continue R, please please do not rug sweep this. How are things between you both now? Do you feel he is really hearing your rage, hurt and disappointed?

Well said, Whiskey.

My practical advice at this point would be to very clear how hurt and angry you are. To accept zero rationalizations. Simply put, Mr. Cedar, you broke NC and lied to me. All the reasons in the world DO NOT MATTER in the end. What matters is: How is he going to regain your trust? How is he going to fix this mess? My questions wouldn't be "help me understand you" at this point.

Just to be clear, I agree with you. But I also know that cedar feels the need to understand him. I do not feel that has to dictate her response to him. You can feel the need to understand mindset and still not accept the behavior. It’s natural for her to want to understand. Not everyone wants to or processes that same way.

And honestly, I would want to know- did you do it because you are carrying around loving feelings for her, or was this about something else? I have no doubt there are feelings about all of it but it doesn’t mean that they were positive or he still wants her. He should not have responded and he should not have lied.

By having an affair, unless it was a short thing or a paid thing, the enmeshment is there for all of us and it slowly becomes more distant. But it was a major life event. I went to therapy for years over it. I almost got divorced over it. Our lives changed forever. Just like the bs may have charged feelings about that it’s unrealistic to think the ws doesn’t experience that.

For most of us it’s a gradient. It fades from one thing into another. I haven’t spoke to the Ap once since the affair ended nearly 7 years ago. But if I saw him out, or he contacted me, it would be very upsetting. Not because I care for him but because of what he represents. He will never be a neutral person to me, or my husband. But NC is of the upmost importance and should stay in place forever. So please understand I am not arguing what he did was right. All I was trying to say is it doesn’t mean he was pining for her, and with the little we know it doesn’t mean he wasn’t either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:07 AM, Friday, April 5th]

Ah, thanks SS 😘

But I also know that cedar feels the need to understand him. I do not feel that has to dictate her response to him. You can feel the need to understand mindset and still not accept the behavior.

I agree. I didn't mean her need to understand was somehow wrong. You said it better: don't let it dictate the response. Trying to understand is part of processing especially if one wants to reconcile. I was only trying to convey that her feelings matter and to me should be a priority at this moment.

It's easy to for the betrayed's feelings to take a back seat as we focus on the WS and their whys. I think it's ok for cedar to hold his feet to the fire a bit and say hey, what about me? Where was I in this equation? How did you prioritize our marriage? If for no other reason than to get Mr. Cedar to focus on the pain he has caused Cedar versus focusing on his issues.

She (like all of us) needs to take up space in the relationship. Like whiskey pointed out, I get the sense Cedar makes herself smaller to save the marriage. I think most of us have done that. This is an opportunity to go "wait. No. I matter too."

Yes, I agree completely. I was only saying it’s it’s plausible that she has the truth. The more complicated part is verifying and what to do moving forward with that information.

Given that i may never know the full truth, I need to decide how to proceed with what I know. As Hikingout said, I try to understand and see from WH’s perspective to make "sense" of their choices. It doesn’t mean I justify or excuse their behavior. Rather, it helps me to decide my next steps. Analogy: if someone steals a loaf of bread i want to know why. If it was because he has starving children at home then we need to find a way to feed his family and find out why they are starving. Does he not work? If so, why? Etc. etc. . If it was because he gets a high from stealing, then he needs to get mental health help. Here on SI we talk a lot about WS finding out their whys. And i feel like i need to know my WH’s whys in order for me to move forward with R.
Anyway, I am so grateful for all of your input. Whiskeyblues and TheEnd are 100% right in that I make myself small in this marriage. It’s my FOO of people pleasing issue. I’ve always been taught to stay quiet, get in the back of the line, i am not important, let others go first, etc. This journey of infidelity recovery has been crucial in getting me to examine myself and find my voice. I am learning to stand up for myself and articulate my needs and boundaries.
Yes, this relapse sucks. It set us back a lot. But as naive as this sounds, I am going to try to see if any good can come out of it. Like Sacredsoul said, this can propel our R in a new direction. I will keep you all posted. Thank you again for all your support, wisdom, and guidance. I am so so grateful for you all.

Is a polygraph out of the question?

I'm reminded of this every time I read this post, so I figure I'll share it:

In high school, I cheated on my BF by kissing another boy at a party after my BF left me there. BF, of course, broke up with me and we never spoke of it again. I was devastated at the time, and held onto a lot of guilt about it. I romanticized things in my head and wondered what would have happened had we stayed together. There was a low-key angst whenever I thought about him.

At our 20th high school reunion, I apologized to BF. And suddenly, everything shifted. I was released from the what-ifs and the guilt and the romantic notion that staying with him could have afforded me a better life. The truth is that he left me at the party to go buy drugs, and went to prison a few years later for selling them. And all of that romantic crap was in my head. I spoke my piece (apologized for cheating on him), got a good look at the reality of him, and then I was able to close the chapter forever. It was also a big lesson in learning not to believe every thought I had.

My main point is that my perspective likely never would have shifted had I not had the reunion convo with him. So, while breaking NC and lying about it might be a dealbreaker for you, and rightly so if that's what you decide, the flip side is that it might also have afforded him the opportunity to mentally put some things to rest. That he took it upon himself to do it without talking with you first and then hid it from you for months is inexcusable. But there are lots of things about infidelity that are inexcusable, and we learn to gauge whether the WS has learned and grown from them. Very few people experience a perfect R process.

And i feel like i need to know my WH’s whys in order for me to move forward with R.

I'm a "WHY?" girl, too. In all aspects of life. If you need whys, you set that boundary and expect him to dig and work until he can share them. And don't settle for less. XO

Cedar,

The why always matters to most of us. I guess I was trying to convey that part of the "why" should be "why didn't you think of me?" For me, that would be my biggest "why" right now.

His personal reasons, whether they are like Hiking (need to reassert personal power) or Sacred (letting go of the what ifs) do matter. That's why I focused on his initial reasons. Only you can decide (if he's honest about it) if his "whys" make some kind of sense to you and allow you to proceed.

I was and continue to try and encourage you to take up space in that conversation because his reasons so far didn't include thinking about you. That needs to change. Or he'll continue to do what "he needs to do" without considering you.

I simply don't want you to get lost in playing therapist. Ask the questions you need to ask. Push for the things you deserve.

[This message edited by TheEnd at 5:17 PM, Friday, April 5th]

I was and continue to try and encourage you to take up space in that conversation because his reasons so far didn't include thinking about you. That needs to change. Or he'll continue to do what "he needs to do" without considering you.

I simply don't want you to get lost in playing therapist. Ask the questions you need to ask. Push for the things you deserve.

I agree with this heartfelt advice. I am glad you are starting to think about prioritizing yourself more. It’s very healthy to do that.

My husband told me if he caught me in even one lie, we would get divorced. Doesn’t matter how much past dday or what date in the future it was. He said that I have hit my quota for disrespect for the entire length of our marriage. He said the same thing about contact with AP, and a few other things. Zero tolerance.

I am fine with it. I have never been a big liar anyway and would have no intent to talk to the AP ever again even if my husband left this world tomorrow.

There is a lot you have said during your R that makes me believe your H really does want R, but wanting it and earning it are two separate things. Best wishes to you as you navigate all of it.

You’ve all shared so much wisdom here! I’ve nodded "oh yeah, so true, that’s right" non-stop as I read your replies. Thank you so much!!

Interestingly I’ve often felt my WH made decisions without considering me. And that aligns with wayward thinking, no?
I have mentioned it to him before but i think it would be prudent to discuss this further with him again. I am learning that doing the work isn’t just about behavioral change but the mindset change.
I’ll keep you all posted.

So, while breaking NC and lying about it might be a dealbreaker for you, and rightly so if that's what you decide, the flip side is that it might also have afforded him the opportunity to mentally put some things to rest. That he took it upon himself to do it without talking with you first and then hid it from you for months is inexcusable. But there are lots of things about infidelity that are inexcusable, and we learn to gauge whether the WS has learned and grown from them. Very few people experience a perfect R process

I really feel for the poster. I am in a similar situation.

I really really hope you can still fix things. My sister told me something that upset me so much and which COULD be true. She said "are you sure he is not choosing the wrong things on purpose so YOU terminate the marriage?”

We are getting on too well and enjoying life together too much in my opinion for that. But considering I am distant from a cheater’s mentality as much as Mars is distant from the Earth, anything could be possible.

I think in my case my husband wanted to fix the marriage without fixing himself. The result is he wants me as his spouse and her as a reminder of his escape bubble and obsession.

I feel a mixture of sadness and anger and feel so disheartened.

It takes one person to destroy a marriage and unfortunately TWO to fix it.

[This message edited by Fantastic at 8:24 PM, Friday, April 5th]

Fantastic
What you wrote is profound!

"I think in my case my husband wanted to fix the marriage without fixing himself. The result is he wants me as his spouse and her as a reminder of his escape bubble and obsession".

I had to stop and think about your statement…
I think my wh wants to fix the marriage without fixing himself!!
And if he is keeping the AP as a reminder of his escape bubble obsession … then I don’t know what the heck more to do. That would be so cruel and unfair beyond words.

I think we are in a situation where anything can be true. Not knowing is the devil’s potion.

Interestingly I’ve often felt my WH made decisions without considering me. And that aligns with wayward thinking, no?

Yes, it is. It’s avoidant behavior. Easier to expect forgiveness than be told no. I never made major decisions without my husband, like I wouldn’t go buy a car or something without him, but there are a lot of things that I used to do without consulting him. I wanted to avoid the discussion because I didn’t want to compromise.

My H used to joke that he'd rather ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. I don't find that very funny. At all.

Now he says that he has a 3-step decision-making process, and that mine is a 36-step decision making process. I typically take my time and think things through, playing out all the potential issues and getting my ducks in a row before I make a decision. He shoots from the hip. I think it's mostly his nature, but also partly nurture, because he's a Marine and they were trained to "shoot, move, and communicate". Notice where "communicate" is in the order of operations. Appropriate for combat situations, but not for personal relationships.

He also gets himself in trouble with the vet organization he runs, too, for making quick decisions without consulting the finance officer first. That officer and I have bonded because of it. We commiserate. lol

I don't know that making decisions without considering others is always avoidant. My H doesn't seem to have the symptoms of APD. I think it could also be indicative of something else, like ADHD, which he DEFINITELY has.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:09 PM, Friday, April 5th]