SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Agreed. Nor should you be the sounding board for OBS. So then, why did this happen?

BSR, here's the issue for me on this topic.

1. I'm not a jealous person.
2. I believe very strongly in one's own agency.

So I'll explain a bit of my journey to now and my current thinking. Ultimately, a big issue I recognize I had throughout my relationship was projecting my viewpoints onto my wife--when she clearly didn't share them.

Early on in my relationship with my wife (before she was my wife), I had a lot of women in my life who were sexually/romantically interested in me. My wife, on the other-hand, was doing the right thing by putting up a wall and avoiding "bad" situations entirely, keeping distance from such people interested in her--she liked me and didn't trust herself not to mess it up.

On many occasions I was in a bad situation being propositioned for sex, etc., and turning it down. I would pass the tests, and I took pride in that (my agency). But I recognized that everyone is as faithful as one's options--so my line and moral structure was good, but I was playing with fire; especially at a time when I didn't yet have a deep love for my wife as we had just started dating.

I decided to cut all those women out of my life to give my relationship the best chance of success. I believed in my moral anchor, but saw the inherent risks I was taking as foolish.

However, if tomorrow you got my drunk and threw me naked in a room with a bunch of horny models, I feel fairly confident I wouldn't cave--and that's now, so forget about before DDay/during my M. Random fun sex isn't the big reward to me that it is for many others. I take pride in my self-control and moral structure--and I value my body and self.

So, if my wife had asked me back in Oct. if she could go to AP's house for dinner one night to discuss PTA stuff, I'd have told her to have a blast. My trust level was absurd because I had that level of trust in myself--it was naive projection.

So now, with my wife traveling for work, I could invite OBS over and make her dinner and have a bottle of wine, knowing how she feels about me, and feel 100% confident I wouldn't have sex with her. That's my agency. I'm in control--not her. She doesn't get to have sex with me because she wants to (something I imagine many women can relate to considering all the men that always want sex from you).

I'm not backing off that position as it's important to me. I can be trusted; my WW can't be trusted. Period.

What I have recognized is that sharing intimate details of my potential recovery with my wife is not mine to share. It's not fair to my WW or my M to let OBS into that world. My WW and I have discussed this and we're on the same page. I do not plan to tell OBS to fuck off if she texts me though--and I never will. I will be kind and supportive--because that's who I am and that's more valuable for me to maintain that aspect of myself than this M.

Bottom-line: If I am down and have an urge to talk with OBS again, I plan to talk with my WW first--if after that conversation, I still want to talk with OBS, I will, but I will keep the ongoings of my WW largely out of the conversation with OBS.

If OBS reaches out to me, like she did on Thursday, I will listen to her and offer helpful support; again, keeping my WW largely out of the conversation.

My position is to be fair to my WW, not jump/react because she is projecting her shitty moral structure onto me. I'm still deeply hurt by her accusations that I was fucking OBS behind her back--it's a big deal to me that she thought that and caving entirely to her irrational madness is not something I'm willing to do.

I know most men that meet my wife want to fuck her--it's on her not to let them. The equivalent behavior for me would be if I told her she is no longer allowed to interact with men because they want to have sex with her. That's insane. So yes, OBS may still want to have sex with me--cool--but it's on my WW to trust me that I won't let that happen.

The question is whether your WW has developed an understanding of healthy boundaries before embarking on any new outside hobbies snd activities.

It’s not sufficient for her to go to an art class, for example, find herself in a situation where a man is flirting with her, she starts going down that path, then suddenly realizes she shouldn’t because having another affair would be too painful for her.

Proper behavior would be through doing the work she recognizes proper boundaries up front, and not engage in that unhealthy behavior, not because of potentially negative consequences for her, but because she’s become a healthy person with strong boundaries.

There’s a big difference between the two, snd there’s no way your WW is even close to being the latter.

She hasn't had time to develop much of anything yet, but as you suggest, she feels like such a POS right no--and feels like everyone else thinks she's such a POS--that her having an affair is not very likely today. I'm still very much concerned about what she would do a year from now if she doesn't address her issues. But she's doing three therapy sessions a week, so I'm satisfied she's trying and I'm going to closely monitor her actions.

I can be trusted; my WW can't be trusted. Period.

Didn't you say you've been lying to a real, live woman online for years to get sexual gratification from her?

That takes us to the last few months--I was still talking with one of the online girls (we've now known each other for probably 15 years, but there have been lots of gaps in our communication). As far as she knows, I'm in a cuckold relationship and I still tell her about my wife's fake adventures on occasion.

Didn't you say you've been lying to a real, live woman online for years to get sexual gratification from her?

I saw that coming. I’m missing the precise analogy you’re trying to make though; that’s why I didn’t proactively address it.

If you’re referring to the woman I was lying to, I’m not proud of that behavior, as I’ve pointed out. It was entirely selfish and I justified it to prevent a divorce.

If you’re referring to my questionable moral behavior in general, my line was sex. That was my moral anchor. And there were no lies to my WW—she knew about it.

And I applied that to my WW as well—when I caught her in the middle of the night texting on Jan. 20, I didn’t find that a breach of our marriage.

Granted, I shouldn’t have assumed that’s all that was happening, and unlike me, she wasn’t being upfront about what she was doing. I’m citing it to point out I was morally consistent.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:33 AM, Monday, June 20th]

So you feel it's morally consistent to lie to people you only know online? You don't owe them honesty?

So you feel it's morally consistent to lie to people you only know online? You don't owe them honesty?

I’m far from perfect. But yes, there’s a big gap between chatting/lying online and having sex outside a marriage. That’s my moral structure—to each their own.

I do not feel any moral equivalence between what my wife did and what I did. And to further make my point, hypothetically, I’d have no issue with what my wife did had I been informed before she did it. Her deception and betrayal is the moral crime for me.

So now, with my wife traveling for work, I could invite OBS over and make her dinner and have a bottle of wine, knowing how she feels about me, and feel 100% confident I wouldn't have sex with her.

Sp cheating is only sexual contact? What about creating intimacy with someone? If I were married to you, I would 100% consider this cheating.

Why do you like to operate so close to the edge with other women? Do you have no empathy for your wife's feelings? How about the way these other women feel or interpret things?

You almost speak as if using people and their emotions as pawns for your own gratification--as long as there is no sexual contact--is perfectly acceptable adult behavior, and that is surely a topic that needs some exploring in IC. You may be "confident" in your amazing self control, but your inability to care about or see other people and their feelings is quite alarming.

Why do you like to operate so close to the edge with other women?

I don’t. I removed all women from my life before my marriage—my wife is a very jealous person and I was willing to do that for her comfort.

I’m just saying with this specific relationship—OBS—I’m less sympathetic to my wife’s unjustified jealously.

But yes, there’s a big gap between chatting/lying online and having sex outside a marriage.

Indeed. It's also useful to know that you see nothing at all wrong with telling lies about your wife online.

First of all, no contact should mean no contact… for you or your wife. OBS needs to focus on her marriage and you need to focus on yours. You’re not friends. You are the quarterbacks of 2 opposing teams.

Second, I’m blown away by how dismissive and glib you are at the idea of lying to and about people online, especially given the fact that so many people have invested time and energy to give you advice. Quite honestly, this bit of information gives me a much different perspective on why psychological games and mistrust of intentions are ongoing issues in your relationship.

It's also useful to know that you see nothing at all wrong with telling lies about your wife online.

I see plenty wrong with it.

While you don’t have a clear understanding of the situation (because I have chosen not to explain it thoroughly), you have eagerly locked in on it. From my perspective, you appear silly, but I recognize that’s not necessarily because of your criticism, it’s because of the lack of information you have on the topic.

Regardless, I agree that lying to people on the internet is wrong. I’ve acknowledged previously in this thread it was wrong and I’ll do it again now. I’m not being glib about it—I’m very genuine and I regret doing it. The woman knows that, my wife knows that, and you know that.

If my wife felt betrayed by my online activities, she could have told me that at any point over the last decade and I would have been eager to discuss them with her. If she chose not to tell me she felt betrayed and instead decided to leave me outright, she could have done that as well. Instead she told me to do whatever online and not talk to her about it (comparing it to porn).

None of that has anything to do with me offering emotional support to OBS. And my lies to the woman online have nothing to do with my wife’s ability to trust me because my wife was not being misled (I did mislead the online woman; I did not mislead my wife). Your entire string of posts has been a poorly conceived straw man and only someone as mentally unwell as myself would have engaged with it.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:34 AM, Monday, June 20th]

First of all, no contact should mean no contact.

There has never been an agreement for me and OBS to go no contact.

Dr, I have followed much of your story to this point. I may have missed this bit of information but is the OBS going through a divorce or is she considering R? Certainly, if she is still with the POS AP, it would not hurt to maintain some contact in order to compare notes just in case the affair starts up again. From your posts it doesn’t sound likely but you never know.

Dr, I have followed much of your story to this point. I may have missed this bit of information but is the OBS going through a divorce or is she considering R? Certainly, if she is still with the POS AP, it would not hurt to maintain some contact in order to compare notes just in case the affair starts up again. From your posts it doesn’t sound likely but you never know.

OBS has been living separately from AP since her DDay on April 1 and she is seemingly headed for D. They are co-parenting and I haven’t pried into the specifics of their separation though.

I do agree that it is in my best interest to maintain a cordial relationship with OBS and that is one of the reasons I am doing it—in addition to simply general kindness. I don’t think my WW will ever contact AP again, but I’d be a complete fool to think it’s entirely impossible.

If you’re referring to my questionable moral behavior in general, my line was sex. That was my moral anchor. And there were no lies to my WW—she knew about it.

And I applied that to my WW as well—when I caught her in the middle of the night texting on Jan. 20, I didn’t find that a breach of our marriage.

Me, me, me. You never say that WE agreed on what the line was or what behavior would be acceptable in the M. Have these "lines" been discussed and agreed on together?

Because for many of us here on SI, both men and women, you are crossing lines that would bother us in a marriage. And maybe your WW was one of them too. So was this all discussed openly and freely? Was your wife, before she was wayward, simply TOLD of your behavior? Or was she actually allowed to reject your lines of morality?

It sounds like you made all the decisions on what would happen in this M, and she just had to abide. Is this correct? Was this her passive aggressive way of getting back at you?

So many slippery slopes in this M. I can see why the lines got blurred.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:56 AM, Monday, June 20th]

I think at this point you are getting nitpicked to death. You are a man whose wife resented you, had an affair, planned to leave you and badmouthed you to anyone who would listen. Those are the issues in front of you. You say your wife is trying to fix the false info she was peddling, she has given up the OM and her plans to leave. If you feel you have enough to stay with her then you need to stop spending time on here. It seems that telling some of your interests in different kinds of sex has been tmi. People on here are only human. There is a lot of info to chew on, so they do. They are now going after the issue of your behavior online. Stop having that as part of the conversation. It is irrelevant at this point. What is pertinent is your marriage. Unless you enjoy these backs and forths as an intellectual exercise it muddies the waters.

Me, me, me. You never say that WE agreed on what the line was or what behavior would be acceptable in the M. Have these "lines" been discussed and agreed on together?

Because for many of us here on SI, both men and women, you are crossing lines that would bother us in a marriage. And maybe your WW was one of them too. So was this all discussed openly and freely? Was your wife, before she was wayward, simply TOLD of your behavior? Or was she actually allowed to reject your lines of morality?

It sounds like you made all the decisions on what would happen in this M, and she just had to abide. Is this correct? Was this her passive aggressive way of getting back at you?

So many slippery slopes in this M. I can see why the lines got blurred.

I didn’t *want* to talk to other women online. It wasn’t something I decided on doing and told my wife she had to accept. I spent endless hours talking with her about all of this as it was a major issue for me in the M.

I will tell you that I don’t think it is something my wife developed a real view on. I don’t think she ever did the internal work/thinking to arrive at a conclusion as to the best path forward for our marriage (or her). She heard my concerns and was uninterested or afraid to discuss them honestly.

And if it sounds like I was making unilateral decisions on the moral guidelines of the M, it’s because my wife would respond to most of our talks by blankly staring at me before finally dismissing the conversation.

To be clear though, there was no slippery slope on fucking other people. Your framing of this is no different than the various justifications my wife used for the affair in the days following DDay. She’s at least out of that initial fog, but I still get to fend off this stuff three months later from the online community support group I found lol.

And FWIW, I’m happy to keep responding to these absurd attacks from you and BSR because I feel I’m on very stable ground and I pledged to largely be honest and transparent in this thread. But I want to dismiss any allusions you may have: there’s nothing supportive or productive about this conversation.

Me, me, me. You never say that WE agreed on what the line was or what behavior would be acceptable in the M. Have these "lines" been discussed and agreed on together?

Um, yeah. They're married. That's what the wedding vows were all about. Duh.

I think at this point you are getting nitpicked to death. You are a man whose wife resented you, had an affair, planned to leave you and badmouthed you to anyone who would listen. Those are the issues in front of you. You say your wife is trying to fix the false info she was peddling, she has given up the OM and her plans to leave. If you feel you have enough to stay with her then you need to stop spending time on here. It seems that telling some of your interests in different kinds of sex has been tmi. People on here are only human. There is a lot of info to chew on, so they do. They are now going after the issue of your behavior online. Stop having that as part of the conversation. It is irrelevant at this point. What is pertinent is your marriage. Unless you enjoy these backs and forths as an intellectual exercise it muddies the waters.

I agree with you and I’m focused on my M. My wife left for her work trip early this morning and I have the week with the kids—we’ll see how the space feels.

I have thus far continued to respond to the silly attack posts because the alternative is dismissing them out of hand—and I don’t want to dismiss *anything*. If the result is a couple of posters look foolish and I learn nothing, it didn’t cost me anything; but who knows, in the process of writing out my thoughts on this something may trigger and be useful down the line.

I’m intellectually curious and I have nothing to lose by engaging—unless I feel it’s affecting me outside of this thread.

Your wife didn't want to have sex with you for over a decade. You discussed this with her A LOT. She knew how it made you feel. She DID NOT care. You told her you wanted to,and were going to, talk sexual to women online,as a form of release. She knew. This wasn't a secret. And she DID NOT care. She was ok with it. So if she was ok with it,it doesn't matter how anyone here feels about it. At all.

You have answered the questions about it. Let it go.

You do not have to respond to every comment here. The unwritten motto is ,"take what you need,leave the rest." Drop it. It's distracting from your thread, and your support.

Anyhoo...I'm glad she's gone for a few days. It will help clear your head. What is she going to do to help you feel safe while she's gone?