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VERY respectfully, I don't think I'm suggesting that at all. What I'm suggesting is actually far worse. That even engaging the fullness of our agency/free will, that we can still face long term abiding, more-acute-than-not...pain. That there just might be, possibly for some at the very least, pain(s) that we cannot choose our way out of. gmc94's knee. That pain just IS. It's there. She can't choose her way out of it. Agency is largely unrelated to it. Yes, that is a physical pain example. Is it not possible that the same could be true of emotional/psychological pain? Are we saying it's literally not possible in the emotional realm? I appreciate your limping metaphor. I don't think it's a crazy stretch to think that that vicorious limp may be...pain filled?

You've definitely given us something to think about. I think I'm coming around to agreeing with you somewhat. Infidelity is always traumatic and damaging, but the level of damage does vary depending upon so many factors. The trauma likely hits a lot harder if you have something like parental abandonment in your past. If you've been raped by a friend. If this is the only person you've ever been in a relationship with. If your only other relationship was abusive and you thought you had finally found someone who really loved you. If the marriage was previously really great in your mind. So many factors play into exactly how much this tears down within you, and then you have to factor in the personality traits of the person cheated on. I can easily see this utterly breaking a person and them not being able to completely climb back out. Infidelity leads to a fair number of suicides and homicides. It's a pretty severe injury and no one escapes unscathed. I can see how I was able to climb out of it and it's funny that some of what I thought were my worst traits were actually the most helpful ones. Tinker much with who I am and maybe I don't heal as well. Maybe I heal even better. I tend to rescue abused dogs with anger issues. Were I to take a sweet dog who has lived a spoiled life and accidentally tripped on her, she'd be okay. If I accidentally trip on one of my dogs who was abused, I have to stop right there and soothe that animal because they don't recover so smoothly. People are like that too, though we are able to recognize our issues and work on them. Two different people who do all the work possible to heal won't wind up at the same level of damage years later.

DevastatedDee - feels like you are inside my mind.

Ha ha ha, it must be a fun place!

Thank you Dee. I guess I also want to be clear that I'm not even ADVOCATING for this (I don't think so at least). I'm just exploring it. And I get that we will ALWAYS have a choice in how we RESPOND to pain. The dignity or grace that we bring to it. But making those choices may not alleviate an ounce of it. And I guess, also for me, I would rather know the truth even if it's discouraging. If a doctor says, "Wounded, I've reconstructed your knee. It's working at about 60% and it's going to have severe arthritis in it. Here's the therapies and medicines that can assist, but it's going to be a constant challenge for you." Great! I mean...it sucks, but I now can prepare for dealing with the reality. Maybe I need a cane? Maybe get a one story house? Make all kinds of other adjustments? But knowing all the while that all of those adaptations are not going to LESSEN THE PAIN. They ARE going to help me deal with it. And I will choose to bring my world renowned grace to the table in those adjustments. But the pain...will remain. And, yes, I so appreciate HO's encouragement to NOT GIVE UP ON OTHER POTENTIAL TREATMENTS prematurely. Maybe get a second option? I get that. But also, isn't there a really fine line between gracefully embracing your reality and "giving up"? Yeah, I'd want to make sure that there really was no higher healing ceiling for that knee before I had to give up something I really loved or accept a limitation I really really did not want to accept. But...at some level, if my Dr.was spot on, and chronic deep pain remained my companion, I'm tempted to say that the most dignified thing I could do would be to embrace that reality with as much grace as possible...and LIVE. With. That. Pain.

Maybe I've come off the rails now...

[This message edited by Wounded Healer at 12:19 AM, Wednesday, March 2nd]

VERY respectfully, I don't think I'm suggesting that at all. What I'm suggesting is actually far worse. That even engaging the fullness of our agency/free will, that we can still face long term abiding, more-acute-than-not...pain. That there just might be, possibly for some at the very least, pain(s) that we cannot choose our way out of. gmc94's knee. That pain just IS. It's there. She can't choose her way out of it. Agency is largely unrelated to it. Yes, that is a physical pain example. Is it not possible that the same could be true of emotional/psychological pain? Are we saying it's literally not possible in the emotional realm? I appreciate your limping metaphor. I don't think it's a crazy stretch to think that that vicorious limp may be...pain filled?

I don’t know that physical injury is the end all best comparison to mental anguish.

I liked my metaphor too, but it has limits. But I’ll try to at least keep some ideas rolling for consideration.

I don’t know that any negative thought or painful thought simply exists forever on its own.

I think we have to find it. I think it needs energy, it needs rumination, it needs fuel to continue to exist as a PRIMARY focus inside my mind. Same with good thoughts or memories. We’re constantly distracted by other stimulus through the day from food to music.

For me, when I was stuck, and the negative thoughts and pain kicked back in when I had a quiet moment.

Since the pain didn’t paralyze me from doing other things, I figured out it didn’t have to dominant any part of my day.

We get conflicting suggestions from the nascent science of psychology — feel what we feel, but don’t let those feelings own you or drive you.

Neural science tells us that our thought patterns can be forged and reforged through unique neural pathways.

I do think in that sense we can get stuck for extended periods of time — but we can also literally change our thought patterns and pathways.

I was able to leave most of my mental pain in the rear view mirror (once I became un-stuck), so I really only understand my path back to more positive days and moments than negative ones.

I see people continually find a way to alter their perspectives. Or new experiences alter their perspectives, new data, etc.

Ultimately, I think the only real control we have in this world is how we respond to adversity.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 12:05 AM, Wednesday, March 2nd]

The length of time it takes to get back up relates to how far we've fallen which, in turn, relates to how lofty our original expectation of the relationship was. Case in point, when whatisloveanyway says "I fell hard from the hubris of my life's false narrative". I relate to this.

Slight T/J here:
I've recently been entertained by some of Netflix's Viking shows. Their depiction of the 'shieldmaiden' somehow reminded me of a couple that my parents used to make company with when I was about 12. To my 12 year old mind their relationship represented a kind of ideal in marriage; the whole greater than its parts. Their devotion and deference to each other was in their body language. They'd exchange amused conspiratorial glances when they laughed at the same things. And they both projected individual confidence borne of what seemed to me the strength of belonging to each other. They had each other's six.

Some 25 yrs later they were traveling through where my parents lived and stopped by for dinner. Having not forgotten my 12 yr old's memory I made sure to be present for that dinner. Just wanted to see what they were like now. The vibe was still there. They were older and less bold in their presence, but their mutual reliance was still very much obvious. Watching them was still mesmerizing.

I ask; what might the carnage be for either of them had one stepped out of the marriage? How hard might one of them have fallen from the hubris of their life's false narrative.

One's perch matters.

The perch definitely figures in. I fell from a high one. My family of origin hurt me deeply—so much trauma and rejection. Add to that some long term sexual abuse by a trusted family member.

My husband was my new life. My trusted partner of decades. My co-parent; my best friend. We forged something new that allowed me to leave the trauma of my upbringing, and we had each other’s back through hard times. I trusted him implicitly. The mythology I built up in my head about us was grandiose, even if I never really talked about it (I tend to be emotionally reserved on the surface). Then he cheated. It was a long, hard fall. The perch is so high up I can’t even see where I fell from anymore.

Again, this is such a thought provoking and meaningful thread (even though it’s harrowing in some ways).

Wounded, I’m struck by what an earlier poster observed about your second d-day. I don’t know the story of that, but it seems like it was probably very painful. Do you think that figures into your thoughts and pain?

[This message edited by Grieving at 12:36 AM, Wednesday, March 2nd]

This has been a very useful discussion thread. Thank you all for it! I identify very much with the OP's sentiment.

The assertion that "anyone can" might, again, very well be absolutely true. But...if it isn't...doesn't that potentially become an almost unbearable burden to those who might not be able to? Man. In a massive ironic twist of trying to genuinely help and challenge people in a beautiful way, we end up potentially burying them with the idea that if anyone can do this but I am unable to then that absolutely HAS to mean that the "problem"....is....me? We might be unintentially adding to the already crushing weight they are carrying?

I can see how it might seem "blamey" on the surface. But I still believe that anyone can do it. It might mean testing long held dogma and changing one's POV, but in the end, I truly believe that the greatest healing is done when we learn true self-reliance, to be happy with ourselves and who we are.. and we do have wild amounts of control over that. The alternative is that we tell some people, "Hey, this bad thing happened to you, but sorry about your luck, you don't have what it takes to heal. Might as well get comfy down here in the bog because some people can never recover and you're just unfortunate to be one of them." Why would that person bother to get out of bed every day? Of course everyone can heal! Of course we can. If your healing is stalled, try something else and keep trying until you get there.

Dear Wounded,

Thank you for such a well written and provoking topic. Having suffered a traumatic injury in my early teens some 55 years ago that still hurts everyday, I understand your premise well. I have had the conversations with my doctors you describe. Likewise a deep betrayal from long ago still casts a shadow in my life many decades later. I visit this site to try and make sense of that terrible time so long ago. Pain is something that has dogged my life and I keep the 17th century English poet John Dryden's aphorism close:

"For all the happiness that mankind can gain,
Is not from pleasure, but in rest from pain"

Have you shared these posts or some other exposition with your wife? If so what is her reaction and understanding? I read your back story and understand her shame, but this post leaves no doubt about the destruction her PA/EA's and TT wrought in your psyche and life.

TooOld

I think when we say "heal" it doesn’t mean that it just stops hurting. The pain of infidelity is a long healing journey filled with self reflection, choices, evaluation and such.

We tell Newly betrayeds "you will heal" because in most cases you do. The pain at Dday is hopefully not as bad years down the road. As a betrayed you are not crying 24/7 a year later or two years later etc. The betrayed is not the same emotionally shattered person they once were.

Does it go away 100%? No. The pain is always there.

But there is hope it lessens over time.

I’ve read most of the responses to this thread... skimmed through some, so don’t even know if my comment is gonna make sense or fit in...

I started writing and realized I ended up going on a rant that even I couldn’t follow...

All I’ll say is that you don’t know what you don’t know when you’re in pain... going back to the injury analogy, you get hooked to, and put trust in your physiotherapist.. Which in my case was my WS (which I assume means wayward Spouse; I’m still guessing at what the acronyms stand for on here )... And then get hooked to the attention and pain meds they give you...

Anyhow, I’ll stop myself here from going on the rant that I just deleted and say that today, as I mentioned in my previous thread and other comments, I wish that of all the "heartbreak songs" that I listened to at the time, that "release me" from Wilson Phillips would have popped up and that I could have shared it with her...

The pain and memory just doesn’t go away... Seems to be getting worse in my case...

Anyhow, it is what it is... I still ended up on a mini rant, but I’ll cut it short now...

Interesting topic. I appreciate all the thoughtful responses.

Were I to take a sweet dog who has lived a spoiled life and accidentally tripped on her, she'd be okay. If I accidentally trip on one of my dogs who was abused, I have to stop right there and soothe that animal because they don't recover so smoothly. People are like that too, though we are able to recognize our issues and work on them.

I think this is true - and it's that way for any trauma. How we respond and heal - even from physical traumas - is partly related to our pre-trauma original position/resiliency (which includes FOO etc etc), partly related a function of the work we do (which itself can be influenced by resiliency-type factors), and partly a function of the passage of time. I believe the individual "work" part (which includes working on our mindset and thought processes) is a huge part of it and it luckily a part that we can control. Resilience varies from person to person but it, too, can be fostered/worked on. For me, my husband's infidelity brought forward a LOT of feelings I had in relation to my father's infidelity. These were feelings I hadn't really processed or properly confronted at the time and because I wasn't living at home, I was mostly able to avoid/rugsweep. Part of my work involved properly delving into that. That was MY baggage and it was for ME to deal with.

In the special case of infidelity, our healing can also be affected by our continued exposure/interaction (or not!) to the source of our trauma (ie. the WS) - that too is something within our control. If I'm not mistaken, of the three men who have expressed long-term, deep chronic A pain in this thread, all have had WWs who have lied long into their supposed R - at least two have had very recent D-days. I don't think that's a coincidence.

I consider myself to be healed. That doesn't mean I'm 100% or as good as new - this has forever changed me as it has all of us. It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt - but the hurt now is not sharp, immediate or all-encompassing. It doesn't interfere with my thoughts/feelings - there is no rumination. Truly, it has no hold on me. It is more the dull ache of an ancient injury.

I haven’t yet seen that favorite phrase, “letting go of the outcome,” and to me, that goes hand in hand with the lingering pain idea. It’s the phrase around here that stuck with me the most, and I made it work for me, eventually.

The infidelity changed me, no doubt. My dad passed when I was 18, and that changed me too. I spent many years (ten-ish, really) lingering in a limbo (which I intermittently mistook for R), where I was mostly fine, I thought, but once I freed myself from that, I got a much clearer picture of how much it sucked. I’ve been divorced more than 5 years now, and I am truly happier than I’ve ever been. It sucks that I had to go through those shitty things, but those shitty things are far enough in my rearview that I’m wiser and at peace. I could dig into those shitty things, all the lost possibilities, or rarely a trigger will pop up to send me down a rabbit hole of milder versions of those old feelings. Like others have said, much like old scar tissue, I don’t ever think that will fully go away. But I am healed.

For me, knowing I was healed came in the moment a couple years ago where I stopped thinking about things that happened to me, us, my kids, and all the related awful pain, and accepted, truly heart-and-soul accepted that all that happened, but it was in the past. I decided that the past didn’t need to hold on to me anymore, and with acceptance came truly letting go of the outcome. Not just the outcome of my marriage, divorce, relationship, but everything. Accepting and understanding that today’s choices and moments are the only outcome I can do much of anything about. As we say in planning at my job, tomorrow I could get hit by a bus, so today is what I can work with. I have hopes and dreams and plans for the future. But those might not happen. And that’s okay. For today, I choose to live with radical honesty in my self and others and everywhere I can. And it’s freeing.

He was one person of many important people in my life. We were one relationship of many important (to me) ones. I can’t change the past or the pain that happened. So I let go. It is what it is. And I found peace. It worked for me. I can’t say if it would work for someone in the “chronic pain” bucket.

[This message edited by ChewedMeUp at 1:41 PM, March 2nd (Wednesday)]

Thanks, Chewed.

I was spending too much time editing a post that was basically supposed to sound like yours.

I am not quite there yet, but I am close.

Edit to add: And since it's looking more like R for me, I just want to point out that it's not the R or D that is the determinant factor.

[This message edited by HardKnocks at 1:54 PM, March 2nd (Wednesday)]

This is a very thought provoking post. I have severe childhood trauma. (physical/emotional abuse, neglect, etc.) I recognized that and sought treatment. Cut myself away from my family for the most part. Did years of therapy. Totally, thought I had it licked. Totally, felt healed from it. It didn't figure in my daily life. If it did, it was just the way it was and I had moved on. Sure there were moments of anger or sadness, but not affecting me every day. I used to get a panic attack if someone smoked my father's brand of cigarettes anywhere near me. The smell would set things off. But, even that dissipated over the years. No one told me that there would be a timetable for that. No one suggested that if I wasn't healed within a certain number of years that it was through some fault of my own. I will always be an adult who was an abused child. My narrative doesn't fit with traditional family norms. I can't change it.

My husband's affair re-opened my old, healed over wounds. It stirred up all the old demons of unworthiness. And, when I'm triggered, there is little I can do to control it.

I HAD made my husband my fresh start, as a previous poster did. He HAD to convince me to give marriage a shot. I thought the institution was not for me, didn't trust it. He swept me off my feet. The betrayal of his affair cut me in two. The idea of it seemed impossible in my mind. In some ways, I'm angry at myself for loving someone who could possibly do this to me. There are days when I fantasize over what I might do if I had decided to divorce.

DDay antiversary #3 was last week. I run into the OW all the time. Even when I try to avoid her. The triggers have been happening much more often in the last week. Let me say this.....for the most part....we're in a so much better place. Most of the time, I'm glad that we've worked so hard together. When a trigger hits hard, that can be easy to throw out the window. Occasionally, my FWH will see me in the midst of a trigger, and ask me how this is serving me or us? He's not experienced any major losses. No trauma, other than dealing with a traumatized BS. He is desperate to see me feel better, but can't do the work for me. He sometimes just can't understand that a trigger is not something I can control. I can control rumination, but not being triggered. I do feel so much better than I did that first year. And, I know that the triggers can get much better....but it may be longer than that magical 2-5 years for me. The smell of cigarettes no longer make me think of my father. I know it can happen for me.....but I'm not all the way there yet. But, like my childhood trauma, the affair will never not be a part of my story.

I do chose to stay. Though, there are times when I question my motives in the height of the pain. It HAS gotten remarkably better over time and us both trying to show up to do the hard work. There are moments of "do I really love him enough for this?" Is that not the question in every relationship that isn't in the first blush, dealing with two different individuals?

In your broken femur scenario.....if it heals?......isn't it so much stronger at the break? In many, many ways I feel like we are.....but it sure as hell aches when it rains.

[This message edited by Ladybugmaam at 7:54 PM, Wednesday, March 2nd]

What helps me is knowing that every one of us is a different person after periods of time in our life. You are not the same person you were at 20 or 30 or 40 etc. That’s why you get new friends on average 7 years.

That can be a bad thing or a good thing. Sometimes that leads couples to grow apart.

Take it this way: your WS made a huge mistake and was a bad person at that time but years later are they the same person? Have they truly shown you that they are different?

Trust is a big key but if you see their heart and dedication to you then surely that will help you heal.

I truly hope all of us can move past these hard times bc nobody deserves to live life sad.

I also heard something very interesting from a dedicated Hindu friend. He said the following:

"Healing is a process that could take years, even with dedication. You will know you are healed when your past no longer disrupts your present or future.

When you can look at traumatic times realistically without anger, resentment or unpleasantness, just as they are, you will be healed. A forgiven heart remember the tough times but is no longer bitter."

That really helped me

[This message edited by Omnipicus at 8:59 PM, Wednesday, March 2nd]

What helps me is knowing that every one of us is a different person after periods of time in our life. You are not the same person you were at 20 or 30 or 40 etc. That’s why you get new friends on average 7 years.

That can be a bad thing or a good thing. Sometimes that leads couples to grow apart.

Take it this way: your WS made a huge mistake and was a bad person at that time but years later are they the same person? Have they truly shown you that they are different?

I found that thought to be very helpful as well. The guy that cheated on me wasn't anything like the guy I married, and he's also not the same guy living with me today. Life is fluid, not static. We're floating along in the stream of TIME and it changes us. Sometimes, just in small ways, but sometimes the changes are huge.

Here's a question for people who are 5 or more years out.... Do you consider your fWS to be "used goods"???