SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am going to email her to ask about her views on EA's...and I'd appreciate any advice on other questions to ask.

I'd find out whether she believes that cheating is a character issue or a marriage issue. If she obfuscates or in any other way denies that cheating is about the cheater, chances are you're looking at an MC who is going to help him blame-shift.

I just wouldn't go. You say he's abusive and it certainly does sound like it. So he's an abusive cheater. I mean no offense, but what would you be trying to save? Listen, marriage can be a great thing, but it can also be a prison sentence if you let it. You stand in a marriage full of cheating and abuse. Do you think he is going to become a completely different person because of some magic that the right therapist is going to perform on him? You want to try and turn a cheating abuser into a decent human being? When you shop for cars, do you pick them out of the junkyard thinking if you replace every single part it will be a working vehicle or do you just go get one that already runs? If you want a completely new man, the world is full of them. If you want this particular man, then you need to think about why that is. Why is it that a cheating abusive person is the one person you want so badly?

You probably have a desire for who he would be if he fixed all his parts, but that isn't who you're dealing with. You're dealing with who he is, not a fantasy version of him that may not even be achievable (and wouldn't be without years upon years of work that it's doubtful he has in him to do). The fantasy fixed version of him isn't going to reach out and stop the real him from continuing to hurt you. The man you want doesn't exist. The man you hope for is a dream. The man you're married to has no business in a marriage counselor's office. He has too much to fix before he even imagines trying that. It's too much to ask of a MC to treat a marriage when one of the parties hasn't even leveled-up to basic decent human being.

I don't quite understand why you'd go to MC for anything at this point.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:50 PM, Tuesday, October 5th]

I'd find out whether she believes that cheating is a character issue or a marriage issue. If she obfuscates or in any other way denies that cheating is about the cheater, chances are you're looking at an MC who is going to help him blame-shift.

Thanks CT - great question! I can't let another 'professional' try to shift my reality.

Spoke with the attorney - she was incredible and completely straight with me. I gave her as much background as I could...the one thing I know I neglected to mention was that he was no longer contributing to the household - or at least not his portion, since he moved his paycheck in May. Otherwise, I told her about the incidents with the guns, the suicidal ideation, the police reports, his threats, refusing the leave the house, threatening me with violence - and of course, his ongoing EA with COW and the proof I have of him being active on Tinder, and talking to OW.

Here is what is boils down to in my state:
- Protective orders: unobtainable unless there recent proof of physical violence - so he'd have to hit me
- Divorce with cause (adultery / cruelty) - based on the current evidence (screen shots of texts, pictures of Tinder women, my word of him having an EA with COW), no way
- Exclusive use of marital home: You have to have a divorce with cause (adultery, cruelty, abandonment) ok'd by a judge to file for exclusive use of the marital home - so I can't keep him out. She did say I CAN change the locks...but he could come here and break the patio door to get in and I could NOT call the police on B&E

She said I could petition the court for exclusive use based on desertion / him having the condo, but it was a long shot - and generally judges only care if the other place is being occupied by the mistress (so back to divorce with cause). And I asked him to leave...he has proof / texts where I asked him to leave / give me space.

What I CAN do to protect myself financially:
- she assured my I am NOT legally responsible for the condo. I did not sign anything and I'm not on lease. If he stops paying the rent, it's HIS debt.
- draw up a partial PSA (property settlement agreement) that we sign and starts the clock on separation. She said the PSA can state "All credit card debt incurred after 3/1/21 are the sole responsibility of the card holder, not marital debt". As long as he agrees, this would protect me from all the debt he's racked up on CC's he's opened since the end of March. We could also skip notarizing it as it carry no legal weight in this state. Should the separation stand and we decide to move forward with divorce, the PSA can be updated to deal with equity in the house / retirement / etc.

Even if he moves back in, so long as we maintain separate living space (bedrooms) the date of separation would stand.

So I feel a lot better than I did in July when that attorney was trying to force me into a court battle I knew I didn't stand a chance of winning. My state is archaic in the way it treats separation and divorce.

Thanks Dee - I appreciate the honest look at my situation and I don’t disagree with your assessment.

That said, I’m hoping during a session I can tell him I’m done. This isn’t easy and I’ve always had a hard time advocating for myself.

And I could be wrong but I think if we’re separated long enough he’ll move on and find a new source.

Saw your tag line...I'm in VA too.
And it's really hard to get a divorce here. Even under the most amicable circumstances you have to be living separately for a year. No sex, affection, or talking of getting back together or he can use that to restart the separation clock. And in some of the southern counties....it's not uncommon for judges to make couples do counseling for a period if time before granting divorce.

If you have minor children you CAN get a child support and custody order.he has another residence. Serve him there. It's another time marker to show your intent in divorce. And file thru the court...it's official. Do not write it up and submit it. He can say he didn't want to sign.. but that's less likely in front of a judge or magistrate.

You can't change anything right now...VA judges hate that. But you can make a recording noting the state of your marriage, your intent to divorce, the waiting period, his erratic behavior. In that recording list all your wishes...in case of incapacitatation and death. Send it to a secure email address and give the password word to two trusted friends. Also include his adultery and the acts he has taken(condo, not paying bills). To THIS ASAP.

If you have assets for a Trust for those assets ESPECIALLY if you have minor children. If you have life insurance change the beneficiary to the trust. Name one of the two friends you send the video to as the executor. You can go to social security and figure out how much your kids would be entitled to monthly. Then set a monthly amount to be distributed from the trust to SUPPLEMENT that.

Leave him $1 in your instructions. Loop hole in VA probate law says if you leave at least$1 to an eligible heir you have considered them and they can't contest it.

I know this is hard...I have been there. My WH didn't do these things but he certainly communicated thru his actions he was not/is not ready to R.

Thanks Prissy - I appreciate all the advice and will make a list. I like the video idea. I'd note that I'm not trying to screw myself out of anything I'm entitled to, but I'm not going after FW for child support. I'll have primary custody - DD is 16, almost 17, and able to advocate for herself. I also plan to use it as leverage so he doesn't come after me for alimony.

This sh*t is hard when you're a nice person with a big heart who doesn't like to see people hurting...

B/c of D16, I won't block him, so last night he sends a message "love you...miss you" and I don't respond. A few minutes later he says "I guess you don't love me anymore...I guess there is no point of MC" ugh...all about HIM

I'm triggered by this and respond "it is very difficult to tell someone whos hurt me and has made it clear my heart isn't safe with them that I still love them"

Highlights of his response & my thoughts*:
- I make a few MISTAKES and now I'm thrown to the garbage and forgotten about...*a mistake is using salt instead of sugar in the lemonade, not having an EA with your 20yo COW, emotionally abusing me, and talking to OW*
- I've done so much this week to get myself under control...*where was this effort 6 months ago when I was having panic attacks every day and constantly crying?*
- I'm joining a 12 step program...*good- but I doubt you'll learn anything except how to manipulate me more*
- I'm working really hard...*Really??? Its been 4 days...c'mon man*
- I've been working on my issues until 1-2am...*feel sorry for the sad sausage*
- I'm heading in the right direction...*tell me this again in 6 months*
- I'm getting help and no one wants to acknowledge me...*feel sorry for the sad sausage...and YOU should be proud / acknowledge your accomplishments and be satisfied*
- I'm at a point where I need some support...*mommy, I want to come home so I don't have to cook and clean the dribble off the toilet seat*
- I have silence and white walls for support...*YOU leased a condo, furnished it, told me 6 weeks ago you wanted space...you got it / sad sausage*
- I go to work everyday which I don't even feel like doing...*mental/financial abuse...and oh HELL NO! If he follows through / quits then he'll just move back home and I can't stop him...must avoid this at all costs!*
- I'm not walking away without a fight...*I had made you my LIFE for 29 years and you discarded me for a 20yo...and when things went to shit, I fought, begged, pleaded for scraps and you couldn't even give me THAT...and I seriously doubt you're really going to fight*
- Please don't shut me out / I can't do this alone...*I can't FIX you*
- I can do this with support from my family...*NO, you need to want to help YOURSELF, for YOURSELF. The best support right now is space and time*
- Please lets get through this together...*let me keep my bachelor pad, spend $40,000 in marital assets while I live at home and get fed / have sex*

I did NOT respond. I have no intention of responding.

NICE! And you've absolutely got him figured out. Well done! Keep that and read back through it when needed. His manipulations poor me bullshit is not working for him this time.

Block him. Set a time twice a day to go in your block box and read the message.

I use to do it after the house was clean, kids settled in bed and house was quiet. I would remind myself of the blessings I had and that I was in a safe place..it helped GREATLY with my emotional reactions.

Set up a burner email accont.. and spew as much nasty as you want to it via email.

The hardest thing for me to manage at first was WANTING to cuss at home and point out how he fucked up. It just made me feel worse...cuz he would use it to feel "bad" and not do the work.

Once I found a safe place to spew(burnet account, frozen plates) I started to detach more and more. Don't get me wrong I still screw up but I recover wat more quickly.

He is sucking the energy from you cuz he is a bottomless pit and any energy from you is better than none.

The first few months I scheduled everything I missed doing while I was married. I have crafted my ass off...I HAVE A HALLOWEEN TREE. 😊. My home is a place of peace for me and my kids. So now when I have the urge to go off on him...I walk around my house and look at my babies. I don't want to disturb my peace and after a couple of laps around my wonderful home and looking at my Halloween tree Im calmer. Lol.

It's hard and it's scary but I PROMISE that it's get easier.

I just went to Vegas with some girlfriends this week. I blocked him while I was gone because I didn't want his "energy" to invade my trip. I spoke to the kids ever day. I get back home and he says...I called you a few times I had questions about things with kids. Looked him square in his eye "your fully capable of taking care of the kids".

Then it was I just wanted to know you were okay. Looked him square in the eye " I spoke with everyone I needed to during my trip to let them know of my safety"

Then it was "I didnt know how you got to the airport or back home". Looked him square in his eye " I made the appropriate arrangements"

Finally the truth " I didn't know who you went with and the kids didn't know either". Looked him square in the eye "Enjoy the rest of your evening".

He was MAD. lol. then he says " you not gonna thank me for watching the kids". I didn't even take the bait. Closed the door, settles my kid, had a glass of wine and counted my many blessings.

It gets easier ..I promise.

I think you're doing a great job, hysteria, and I think you've got some excellent mentors here.

This blew me away:

Do you think he is going to become a completely different person because of some magic that the right therapist is going to perform on him? You want to try and turn a cheating abuser into a decent human being? When you shop for cars, do you pick them out of the junkyard thinking if you replace every single part it will be a working vehicle or do you just go get one that already runs? If you want a completely new man, the world is full of them. If you want this particular man, then you need to think about why that is. Why is it that a cheating abusive person is the one person you want so badly?

Whew. That's goooooood.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ agree with Bigger 1000% (And thanks to DevDee for those pearls of wisdom)

Block him. Set a time twice a day to go in your block box and read the message.

Iphone user - there is no block message folder so this isn't an option with a minor child.

Do you think he is going to become a completely different person because of some magic that the right therapist is going to perform on him? You want to try and turn a cheating abuser into a decent human being? When you shop for cars, do you pick them out of the junkyard thinking if you replace every single part it will be a working vehicle or do you just go get one that already runs? If you want a completely new man, the world is full of them. If you want this particular man, then you need to think about why that is. Why is it that a cheating abusive person is the one person you want so badly?

Whew. That's goooooood.

100% agree! and no, I don't believe any therapist is going to perform magic and suddenly turn him into a unicorn. He never was the worlds best partner and as the fog lifts, I am seeing more clearly how little I settled for. But in fairness, I was *ok* with what we had. There were things missing, but it worked for us.

Something his absence this last week has put a bright spotlight on is how horrible his relationship with our non-binary child (25) is...they and their partner have been spending a lot more time upstairs with me and D16. We've been having dinner together and they CLEAN UP!!! Do you know what a wonderful change that is???

We've talked...NB25 thinks he's bipolar. They've always been terrified of his rages and didn't like walking on eggshells around him. It's why they've chosen to stay in the basement and avoid him.

He's never done anything to try and understand his oldest child. I'm not a scholar either, but have AWLAYS respected their decisions, including changing their name. He refuses (I named *her and will always call *her by the name on *her birth certificate)

I'm a big supporter of therapy with a good therapist, but this has stuck in my mind since 1980:

Election day, reading an article of the effectiveness of therapy in Omni magazine while waiting at my optometrist's office to pick up new glasses:

A person said of their boss (after the boss's therapy) something like, 'He's the same asshole he always was. He just feels better about himself.'

*****

That's certainly a possible result, though it's pretty unlikely with a good IC. Many people can change. We have members here, both BSes and WSes, who have changed a lot for the better.

But change starts with the desire to change. No one can instill that in another person, not even the best therapist on earth..

That's certainly a possible result, though it's pretty unlikely with a good IC. Many people can change. We have members here, both BSes and WSes, who have changed a lot for the better.

I don't disagree that people can change and I've seen it happen plenty in my life. I've personally changed dozens of times. I'm sure most of us have. What I haven't changed is who I am at my core. I've changed behaviors, attitudes, perspectives, goals, philosophies, but I haven't changed my basic wiring. I suspect that's something that can't be done. We can take our basic wiring and direct it differently, but there are things about ourselves that just are who we are. There are things about me that I'll have to battle my entire life. I'm sure that's the case for everyone. What those things are and how intense that wiring is matters a great deal in relationships because none of us are perfect and we will always slip up and let that bad wiring drive for a moment or two.

For example, some of my wiring is to react with anger to anything that frightens or threatens me. My fight/flight/freeze defaults to fight. There are times when that works and times when it doesn't. There are times when that's inappropriate. I've worked on it and you won't see it in me anymore unless someone really does something outrageous (like infidelity), but it's there. I'm no longer furious at a random person who says something (bitch, you just bumped into me, etc.), but it can still be pulled out of me and I still have to take a second and breathe before I react. And what I'm talking about is stuff like a man hiding in the back of a bookstore I worked at until we closed and locked the doors and coming out to expose himself and threaten rape. My response then was to come out from behind the counter with a pair of scissors and goad him to come on then. Luckily that worked and he left. My urge to respond to "Bitch, you bumped into me" in a store recently with some comeback wouldn't have worked. What I talked myself down into doing, walking away as if I hadn't heard, did work. I forced flight out of me, but it was forced. My initial reaction was to want to turn and say something and that may have led to some really mature ignorant stuff like two middle-aged women fighting in public because their elbows brushed (I was trying to social distance, but I legitimately didn't even see her). So that's my faulty wiring. Probably not too much to ask of a partner to deal with. If my faulty wiring was so extreme that I spent my time abusing, terrorizing and cheating on people, that would be a lot more to ask. The WS in this thread has some profoundly faulty wiring that he'd be tasked with controlling. That sucks for him and everyone around him. It is too much to ask of a partner to sit back and deal with him battling that for the rest of his life unless he had some profoundly good qualities to make up for it, and that's hard to imagine.

I don't even bring up any "he/she/they can change" in threads about infidelity for a reason. That's someone's very damaging wiring and it isn't for me to say that this person can change it. It isn't for me to suggest that anyone stay with someone who is hurting them because maybe they can change. The responsibility for saying and showing that change can happen is 100% on the one doing the hurting. I always suggest dealing appropriately with who you're with right then, not on some future potential version of them. Suggesting that someone abusive can change feels to me like I'd be participating in the abuse and feeding hope that may not be based on reality.

'He's the same asshole he always was. He just feels better about himself.'

This is the way I feel about his behavior since he began IC. His therapist was constantly validating his behaviors - telling him I was asking too much, that even if he had had sex with another person, I wasn't entitled to look at his phone or monitor his whereabouts with something like find my iphone. He kept saying he was getting "stronger" and "getting his voice back".

My current feeling about MC is that I'm using it a stop gap. I plan to be straight with him and the counselor that I don't expect much to come from these sessions, but I also don't want to *poke the bear*. What I mean by this is I have a gut feeling if I come straight out in MC Saturday and say "I'm done, lets call this over and move on" he'll balk. He may surprise me and ask the question himself, but I don't plan to say yes yet. Based on the emails and text messages I've received this week he's in full panic mode. If I say I'm done, he could come back and force his presence on me physically in the house and I'd have no recourse.

I don't expect this to last. The less I respond, the more likely he is to find another supply.

I also need to find a way to get him to sign the PSA.

The counselor got switched out at the last minute and I didn't get a chance to ask any questions.

That said, this morning went ok. She didn't try to sugar coat anything and didn't try to go 50/50 fault. She listened to both of us and said we need to continue IC before diving into MC. She offered to speak to us again in 2 weeks to see where we are and if we've made any decision about moving forward. She was very clear in order to work with us WH & I had to have similar goals and right now, we don't. He wants to save the M, I want space...he wants to move forward and I don't think I can - not the way he wants to. I made it very clear he's been all words, no action. MC made it clear to him without actions to back up his words, there can't be R

I was surprised but a little sad he minimized what brought us to MC when she asked. He still doesn't / won't understand what he's done to ruin the M...it wasn't the loan to COW, it was the choice to hide it from me. It wasn't just going out to dinner with COW, it was deliberately planning it behind my back, lying to me...and knowing the whole time he was lying.

Telling though that in an hour she was like 'nope, this is waste - work on yourselves first'. She was very validating though.

Then I made a mistake...I broke NC and called WH. I was high on hopium. I was looking for answers. I was giving him another chance.

4 hours...2 hours was just us breathing on the phone.

Some highlights:

- He wants me to fix everything - basically tell him exactly what he has to do...I was talking to him about one of the text messages between him and COW and he said "what, do you want me to bake bread for you? Would that make you happy?" The larger point I was trying to make was about the intimacy between them that we've never had...he's never made anything for me and then messaged or called me to say he missed me and wished I was there to share it. Hell, he rarely called me the few times I did travel for work or family.

- I pointed out that he didn't mention the real problems that brought us to MC (lies, EA w/ COW) and that I had to do it.

- he's not going to stop working with COW - same excuses "You want me to quit my job so I can be homeless"...MC noted this was a major issue.

- threatened to abandon the condo/stop paying the rent.

- claims he's going to get a life coach to help him learn how to be in a relationship*

- said he was getting a second job so he could continue paying his half of the mortgage*

- I cried :( at the end I cried. I haven't cried all week, I didn't even cry as he got his stuff last Friday and stomped out. I cried today though; part of it was anger, a lot of it was sadness and missing someone who doesn't exist. I'm still crying off and on. Grief sucks

* I don't believe he'll follow through with either of these statements.

Some may wonder why I bothered with MC

[This message edited by hysteria625 at 3:53 AM, Sunday, October 10th]

Some may wonder why I bothered with MC

Nope, Don't beat yourself up over at least having a go and trying. You come across as a BS that needs/needed to try everything to help you make your final choices so there is no room left for "what if I did this..." speak. Exploring all avenues is not weak if that's what you need to do to heal, it's sad and exhausting and frustrating AF when it doesn't work out but at least you tried and now you know. You are also seeing your WH's true character more through trying so it's not a waste.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 4:20 AM, Sunday, October 10th]

Please understand narcissism. It is the way a person views the world and it’s permanent. You keep thinking something you say will be the perfect word that changes who he is. This is who he is. This.Is.Who.He.Is. We use cliches because they are true. You keep beating your head against a brick wall and all you have to show for it is a headache. The brick wall is still a brick wall. He is still who he is. You can’t change another person. You can change how you react to them. He is a cheater. And you are still trying to make him not a cheater. Get ducks in a row.

This is actually MC round 2 - we got told we were spinning wheels and wasting our time the first time too, but had 8 sessions of communication/love language bs first.

Please understand narcissism. It is the way a person views the world and it’s permanent. You keep thinking something you say will be the perfect word that changes who he is. This is who he is. This.Is.Who.He.Is.

I’m going to try and change "This is who he is" into my mantra when the soft feelings and sadness, loneliness creep in.
Dr. Ramani posted a YT video yesterday or the day before about mid-grade narcissists and it fits to a "t". I’ve known for awhile he was high on the N scale and maybe other personality disorders tossed in for good measure. I doubt he’ll ever want to do the introspection to get diagnosed.

I did start the list of hurtful things he’s done recently and over the years. 5 pages so far and growing as I remember more.

He is a cheater. And you are still trying to make him not a cheater. Get ducks in a row.

Truth hurts but I need it. I’m getting a partial PSA together this week. I just need to find the courage to send it.

missing someone who doesn't exist.

Oh sweetie, I hear this. It's hard to come to terms with this, but you'll get there (if you aren't already!)

One step forward, two steps back.

I've been battling myself again because going NC and completely ignoring him goes against my nature. I haven't reconciled he's hurt me and I don't need to be nice to someone who's hurt me (fwiw, therapist has told me this goes back to my childhood when my mom would be mean to me and I'd do whatever I could to get her to love me again)...I'm aware of the feelings, now I just need to learn to recognize them, accept them, and sit with the pain / discomfort.

Sunday was nice - I hiked with a friend and only texted with FW. He's on mute so I have to check my messages to see if he's texted. He's mentioned wanting to talk more, so during our banter I said "lets schedule a time to talk tomorrow (Monday)" - he says that would be great and so I'm under the impression he'll reach out.

Monday evening...silence. It's almost 10pm and I can't stand it anymore - I call him. The conversation boils down to me telling him I'm obviously not a priority, and excuses from him (work, exhaustion), dispersed with "I'm so sorry". Then instead of just admitting he forgot, comes up with a great gaslighter lie "I was getting ready to call you when you called me, upset". Oh FFS

But of course, I couldn't let things go so we sit on the phone until 1:30am and I have to be up at 6:30 for work.

Then Tuesday, he calls. That was just a shit show of a conversation and just a lot of crying on my part :( I did tell him if we're going to keep talking, we need to set up a schedule.

I only texted last night and feel better today. I shouldn't have even done that, but was pissed he couldn't even acknowledge me thanking him for sending some money.

I realize I am still trying to put the genie back in the bottle. CL's blog post the other day about "The Power of Maybe" and the science behind how we're addicted to the dopamine associated with anticipation hit HARD.
Left Brain - I KNOW he's NOT capable of meaningful change - he's been like this for 29 years
Right Brain -...but MAYBE
...and I keep holding onto the hope he's going to start acting like a truly remorseful person.